Australian Politics General...

[JohnDe]

The communism you are talking about is a long way away from the government owning a steel mill.

Your argument is reductio ad absurdum.

The "slippery slope" argument will be next.

Could you please explain you form of communsim.

SirRumpole: "Time for governments to own these facilities and not keep shovelling money to shysters."

• Communism is a political and economic system that seeks to create a classless society in which the major means of production, such as mines and factories, are owned and controlled by the public.

• Communism (from Latin communis, 'common, universal') is a sociopolitical, philosophical, and economic ideology within the socialist movement, whose goal is the creation of a communist society, a socioeconomic order centered on common ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange that allocates products to everyone in society based on need. A communist society would entail the absence of private property and social classes, and ultimately money and the state (or nation state).

 

[SirRumpole]

Could you please explain you form of communsim.

SirRumpole: "Time for governments to own these facilities and not keep shovelling money to shysters."

• Communism is a political and economic system that seeks to create a classless society in which the major means of production, such as mines and factories, are owned and controlled by the public.

• Communism (from Latin communis, 'common, universal') is a sociopolitical, philosophical, and economic ideology within the socialist movement, whose goal is the creation of a communist society, a socioeconomic order centered on common ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange that allocates products to everyone in society based on need. A communist society would entail the absence of private property and social classes, and ultimately money and the state (or nation state).

Communism is economy wide not one facility.

 

[IFocus]

Our politicians never learn, they always engage the mouth before the brain, then wonder why they have trouble dealing with the person at a later date.

Live: WA premier calls JD Vance a 'kn*b' following Ukraine confrontation

Western Australia's Premier Roger Cook has called US Vice-President JD Vance a "kn*b" during a leadership forum in Perth. Follow live.

www.abc.net.au

Cook is being polite Vance’s book and movie were shown to be total BS pretty much and very demeaning to his family Harvard educated wasn’t he?

 

[IFocus]

Communism is economy wide not one facility.

Actually not about government ownership but a political doctrine in no way related to government in Australia

 

[Smurf1976]

It has, but if capitalism fails on a steelmill, zero chance communism will succeed..sorry socialism or moderate right as it is called now, let alone green

Agreed but if we consider what's happened at Whyalla, it's not capitalism at least not in the normal sense.

If it were a standalone business rather than being part of a conglomerate then no way would any rational manager have agreed to spend massive amounts of money to prop up another business.

That's not socialism in the normal sense of the word but the concept involved is pretty similar, it's taking on a huge loss you didn't incur in order to prop something else up. It's a concept similar to socialism within the conglomerate.

An analogy would be if an airline bought an oil refinery and just sourced all its fuel from that refinery without payment, eventually bankrupting the refinery. That doesn't mean the refinery isn't a viable business on a standalone basis, it just means it's not so spectacularly profitable that it can afford to give huge amounts of free fuel to an airline.

That's pretty close to what's happened at Whyalla to my understanding. The steelworks of itself isn't spectacularly profitable but it's not a complete basket case either, it can be a viable business. What it can't afford to do is give away steel and cash to another business.

Even government doesn't routinely do that, there's normally at least basic accounting to separate the costs and take the money out of the right budget. That occurs within the same government (eg state) and between federal, state and local. It might ultimately be one big pot of money but there's a reasonable effort to keep track of where the money's going and transfers from one budget to another are a routine thing.

One thing in government is seniority doesn't automatically come with authority. Whoever has authority to do the funds transfer generally won't be the same person who has authority to make the spending decision. That can be a bit of a nuisance but it's a decent safeguard in my view. It means any fraud requires multiple people involved, making it somewhat less likely in practice.

The electricity industry does accurately record its own consumption as one example of that. There's accurate records of where it's going and always have been.

 

[mullokintyre]

Mick

 

[Knobby22]

Agreed but if we consider what's happened at Whyalla, it's not capitalism at least not in the normal sense.

If it were a standalone business rather than being part of a conglomerate then no way would any rational manager have agreed to spend massive amounts of money to prop up another business.

That's not socialism in the normal sense of the word but the concept involved is pretty similar, it's taking on a huge loss you didn't incur in order to prop something else up. It's a concept similar to socialism within the conglomerate.

An analogy would be if an airline bought an oil refinery and just sourced all its fuel from that refinery without payment, eventually bankrupting the refinery. That doesn't mean the refinery isn't a viable business on a standalone basis, it just means it's not so spectacularly profitable that it can afford to give huge amounts of free fuel to an airline.

That's pretty close to what's happened at Whyalla to my understanding. The steelworks of itself isn't spectacularly profitable but it's not a complete basket case either, it can be a viable business. What it can't afford to do is give away steel and cash to another business.

Even government doesn't routinely do that, there's normally at least basic accounting to separate the costs and take the money out of the right budget. That occurs within the same government (eg state) and between federal, state and local. It might ultimately be one big pot of money but there's a reasonable effort to keep track of where the money's going and transfers from one budget to another are a routine thing.

One thing in government is seniority doesn't automatically come with authority. Whoever has authority to do the funds transfer generally won't be the same person who has authority to make the spending decision. That can be a bit of a nuisance but it's a decent safeguard in my view. It means any fraud requires multiple people involved, making it somewhat less likely in practice.

Yes, and also there is a definite public and national interest in this.
It is the only facility in Australia to make long iron; needed for rail tracks, house beams, major buildings etc.
I believe they have 40% of the market and China most of the rest. If our trade lanes were blocked and this factory was not operating, we couldn't build any major projects.

No reason it couldn't be floated if it was updated.

 

[SirRumpole]

“Capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings and socialism is the equal sharing of misery.”

Thats the problem with being controlled by ideology, it blinds one to evidence based pragmatic policy.

 

[JohnDe]

Thats the problem with being controlled by ideology, it blinds one to evidence based pragmatic policy.

Show me the stats.

 

[sptrawler]

Cook is being polite Vance’s book and movie were shown to be total BS pretty much and very demeaning to his family Harvard educated wasn’t he?

Nah, Cook was stupid, Chalmers was smart enough not to say something stupid about someone who we are buying subs off, just dumb $hit.
I can see it now, Vance comes to Garden Island for a visit and the media put the mike in his face and say, this is the Premier he thinks you're a knob. Lol
Then we have a Rudd moment of trying to back fill the hole your mouth dug. Priceless.

 

[Smurf1976]

Meanwhile in Tasmania:.

Sale of state-owned assets possible to bring down Tasmanian debt

Tasmania's government will consider selling off government businesses and assets to reduce the state's spiralling debt levels, Premier Jeremy Rockliff has announced.

www.abc.net.au

Mr Rockliff said selling off or leasing out businesses would help address the state's surging debt, which was last month forecast to reach almost $10 billion by the 2027–28 financial year.

Suffice to say I saw the writing on the wall some years ago.

My view is it's not the party in government but the overall era. Just as most governments ended up in a dire mess 35 years ago, the same is happening today. Liberal or Labor makes no difference, neither can manage money at all well. In Tasmania's case it's the Liberals who've wrecked the state's finances, in Victoria Labor's done exactly the same.

As for Tasmania specifically, well the present state government did actively purge technical knowledge out and spent big $ on doing so. End result = the ships fiasco that's cost the state an outright fortune and some rather expensive road signs:

Labor furious as Hobart’s $22 million electronic road signs remain blank

Labor say the information provided by the signs can be easily obtained elsewhere…

pulsetasmania.com.au

Suffice to say I know a lot of background to both. That's what happens when technical competency is purged and replaced with generalists, and inexperienced ones at that.

My solution's pretty simple really. In all states and federally the approach needs to change - in short put experts in charge of running things. People with a relevant qualification or real world practical experience not generalists fumbling around. Roads, energy, education, military, finance, economic policy - same goes for all of them. Competency is required.

 

[sptrawler]

My solution's pretty simple really. In all states and federally the approach needs to change - in short put experts in charge of running things. People with a relevant qualification or real world practical experience not generalists fumbling around. Roads, energy, education, military, finance, economic policy - same goes for all of them. Competency is required.

That's not how things work in the new World, now it is all about equality, quotas and inclusiveness.
The days of being selected because of merit and competence has long gone.

 

[SirRumpole]

Show me the stats.

The stat's are that the Whyalla steelworks have been trashed by a capitalist, so if the government has to bail them out they might as well own it, otherwise the same thing will happen when the next capitalist tries to run the place into the ground then expects to be bailed out.

 

[SirRumpole]

That's not how things work in the new World, now it is all about equality, quotas and inclusiveness.
The days of being selected because of merit and competence has long gone.

And that has been obvious long before a certain orange emperor appeared on the world stage.

 

[Knobby22]

When it went broke last time in 2017, it was the Libs that saved it. Unfortunately they sold it to a foreign billionaire who said he would upgrade it but didn't keep his promise. No one ever monitors these deals.

I'm just tired of this left right crap.

 

[sptrawler]

I'm just tired of this left right crap.

Absolutely spot on, this isn't a game, it's our kids and grandkids future.
The social engineering and balancing outcomes, so that no one feels hurt has to stop.
IMO the West will become the new Third World, unless it does what it has always done through history, striven for excellence and rewarded endeavour.
Now endeavour, is seen as being lucky and lack of endeavour, is seen as lack of opportunity.
Working to attain middle class now, is a sacrifice that has to be weighed up against, striving to attain a social welfare funded future. The reward for working and paying full whack isn't that attractive.
Some may scoff, but I have had this discussion with someone, that is struggling with that very question.

 

[Smurf1976]

When it went broke last time in 2017, it was the Libs that saved it. Unfortunately they sold it to a foreign billionaire who said he would upgrade it but didn't keep his promise. No one ever monitors these deals.

I'm just tired of this left right crap.

Competence and intent on one side, knowledge and experience on the other.

That's what it comes down to and what's all to often missing.

Where governments get it wrong is they far too often think in a "legal" manner. It says x in the contract so x will happen - anyone with experience will find that idea rather amusing.

Contracts are words on a page, that's all, they're by no means certain to actually occur so active monitoring and enforcement is always required.

 

[SirRumpole]

Where governments get it wrong is they far too often think in a "legal" manner. It says x in the contract so x will happen - anyone with experience will find that idea rather amusing.

No reason governments can't just provide the finance and let the experts do the operations, but maybe there are just too many egos in government who think they know better than anyone else.

 

[sptrawler]

No reason governments can't just provide the finance and let the experts do the operations, but maybe there are just too many egos in government who think they know better than anyone else.

Nailed it, egos and self serving attitudes, appears to be the name of the game today.
Maybe making a stand and saying enough is enough, is too risky, hopefully someone has the guts to do it before it is too late.

 

[Knobby22]

Nailed it, egos and self serving attitudes, appears to be the name of the game today.
Maybe making a stand and saying enough is enough, is too risky, hopefully someone has the guts to do it before it is too late.

I do think they often try but there are powerful interests with self serving agendas.