Australian Job Losses

[prawn_86]

I see lots of complaints in this thread, but what solutions do you suggest?

How many of you buy product online from overseas rather than in a store in Australia - costing retail jobs?

How many of you buy the cheaper imported food products - costing farmers and processor jobs?

How many of you hunt around online to find the cheapest price for a product in Australia - lowering retail profits and costing jobs.

For a stock forum there's quite often a lot of greens tinged talk. Either you let the free market operate or we can always try the planned economy model, though you only have to see the number of bridges built to nowhere to see how badly that allocates resources.

1. When i buy online i always try and but from an Australian site or ebay seller.
2. We try and buy Australian produce as much as possible
3. Of course we look online. That is just market forces. However if i do make a large purchase via a retailer, providing their service and knowledge is good i am happy to pay more, up to a certain extent.

The problem is that as with any economy we don't have a free market. Govt keeps intervening so then others come up with other ideas as to what other interventions would be good.

The solution in my mind, which will never happen, is for the media to stop focusing on everything politicians do and especially say, and for governments to take a long term approach and efficiently spend their revenues without vested interests. Having online voting referendum style for all parlimentary votes would also help.

I hate getting political but unfortunately it is political solutions required to improve the job market imo

 

[IFocus]

I see the usual hobby horses trotted out, biggest impost currently is the strength of the AUD for manufacturing that sells into the overseas markets.

I remember one major exported here in WA @ 70 cents was break even on costs, AUD now $1.05 what do you think that would mean competing against China / Asia?

 

[Julia]

I also doubt the carbon tax is much to be blamed in most cases

Penrice Soda include the carbon tax as a contributor to their recent decision.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...s-soda-ash-plant/story-fn91v9q3-1226557052301

 

[Miner]

Unlike Australia, I find the following in Canada other than Canadians are in general are very polite and accept people people from all nations easily and do not much make loud noise /publicity among first nation people (same as indigeneous people in Australia) (not trying to be political) :
1. They charge substantial customs duty and HST (Harmonised Sales tax) on every incoming imports including On Line Shopping. It is very much deterent to free inflow of cheap goods . For example my Black Berry from USA office was levied $80 towards customs duty even the cost in insurance was stated as $600; we buy 40% discounted commercial goods from suppliers in USA and then pay very hefty customs duty in the entry of Canada forcing us to buy from the same company's Canadian Agent;
2. Work Permit takes minimum 4 months for overseas qualified and skilled candidates and that too valid from 1 to 3 years whereas 457 is granted so easily by Australian Government to overseas qualified and skilled candidates. Canadian restriction applies to all even people from UK and South Africa unlike Australia makes preferential treatment for skilled people from UK and South Africa even if that means Australian jobs are lost ;
3. PR to people with work permit is granted in Canada only after minimum two years work temporary residency and after taking about 2 years whereas it is so easy to get PR in Australia for 457 - we are losing jobs from overseas candidates; The retention of PR is also tough unlike Australian PR retention;
4. Refugees are not easily accepted through Immigration Department and there is hardly any publicity whereas Australian Government not only makes it so easy but also press creates huge publicity making Government looks like a human offender - Job Losses because the refugees work at a much lower rate than Australians
5. Golden case -A waitor in a good Canadian restaraunt is lucky to get $11 (even skimpy bar waitresses get around $12-14 per hour) where as in Australia we pay $18 minimum hourly wages . Who pays the cost we. In a way labour rate is unreasonably high in Australia making job retention untenable in Australian market;

I am learning the difference only starting work in Canada /USA in last 18 months .

Best wishes

 

[Smurf1976]

Penrice Soda include the carbon tax as a contributor to their recent decision.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/bus...s-soda-ash-plant/story-fn91v9q3-1226557052301

The process is very energy intensive, to the point that there's a power station on the site for this reason.

Importing from overseas is the logical step to reduce carbon emissions under the tax. Of course all it actually does is shift them to another country.

 

[Smurf1976]

5. Golden case -A waitor in a good Canadian restaraunt is lucky to get $11 (even skimpy bar waitresses get around $12-14 per hour) where as in Australia we pay $18 minimum hourly wages . Who pays the cost we.

Not sure about Canada but in the US there's a hidden cost in the form of tipping which, in the US, goes to ridiculous extent where we'd never think of doing it in Australia.

Buy practically anything in the US and the price you pay will be higher than the sticker price. Taxes are hidden in most cases - eg the sticker says $10 but you'll be charged extra for tax and this extra is not optional. Tips likewise - they may not be part of the official price but they are not optional in most cases that's for sure.

It's difficult to compare wages and costs in Australia versus the US for this reason.

 

[FlyingFox]

.....
5. Golden case -A waitor in a good Canadian restaraunt is lucky to get $11 (even skimpy bar waitresses get around $12-14 per hour) where as in Australia we pay $18 minimum hourly wages . Who pays the cost we. In a way labour rate is unreasonably high in Australia making job retention untenable in Australian market;
....

Apart from the strong aussie dollar, this is the second biggest reason for the uncompetitiveness of AUS. There is a minimum wage that is prescribed by the government but the actual minimum is supply and demand and can be the quite high. Even at the AUD at .80 r .85, the wages will be uncompetitive.

Moreover this serves as a disincentive for gaining further qualifications thus increasing our reliance on overseas skilled workers.

 

[FlyingFox]

Not sure about Canada but in the US there's a hidden cost in the form of tipping which, in the US, goes to ridiculous extent where we'd never think of doing it in Australia.

Buy practically anything in the US and the price you pay will be higher than the sticker price. Taxes are hidden in most cases - eg the sticker says $10 but you'll be charged extra for tax and this extra is not optional. Tips likewise - they may not be part of the official price but they are not optional in most cases that's for sure.

It's difficult to compare wages and costs in Australia versus the US for this reason.

While I agree with this and it is difficult to make detailed comparisons, the fact that the US minimum sanctioned wage is $7.25 including tips (cash only is $2.13 when tips are allowed) means that our minimum wage is at least twice theirs. That is a huge difference!

 

[sydboy007]

Not sure about Canada but in the US there's a hidden cost in the form of tipping which, in the US, goes to ridiculous extent where we'd never think of doing it in Australia.

Buy practically anything in the US and the price you pay will be higher than the sticker price. Taxes are hidden in most cases - eg the sticker says $10 but you'll be charged extra for tax and this extra is not optional. Tips likewise - they may not be part of the official price but they are not optional in most cases that's for sure.

It's difficult to compare wages and costs in Australia versus the US for this reason.

My experience in that eating at a cafe or restaurant in the US is no cheaper than Sydney. The menu prices look cheap, but you need to add 25-30% for sales tax and tip on top. I would say drinks at bars and pubs are probably more expensive than syd because you're pretty much tipping $1 to $1.50 per drink.

Alcohol from a shop is cheap as the tax is quite low. Public transport was also very cheap compared to Sydney.

Shouldn't we want to live in a high wage economy? I'd hate for us to move towards a US system where people in retail have to work 2 or 3 jobs to get a livable income. I think we need to have a minimum wage that provides a decent income for a full time worker.

 

[sydboy007]

My experience in that eating at a cafe or restaurant in the US is no cheaper than Sydney. The menu prices look cheap, but you need to add 25-30% for sales tax and tip on top. I would say drinks at bars and pubs are probably more expensive than syd because you're pretty much tipping $1 to $1.50 per drink.

Alcohol from a shop is cheap as the tax is quite low. Public transport was also very cheap compared to Sydney.

Shouldn't we want to live in a high wage economy? I'd hate for us to move towards a US system where people in retail have to work 2 or 3 jobs to get a livable income. I think we need to have a minimum wage that provides a decent income for a full time worker.

The carbon tax increases the cost of energy overall and therefore weakens our economic competitiveness relative to the rest of the world.

It's not rocket science.

If the USA and Europe introduce carbon taxes on shipping and aviation fuel it would quickly change the economics of a lot of manufacturing. For 2 decades I've never understood why we use so many resources to ship items from a rich country to a poor then a middle income then poor and finally the finished product is sent back to a rich country.

Mac computers in the 80s literally traveled to the moon and back when you added up all the miles each component had traveled.

It might produce cheap goods, but that's because a lot of the negative effects are not costed.

 

[prawn_86]

My experience in that eating at a cafe or restaurant in the US is no cheaper than Sydney. The menu prices look cheap, but you need to add 25-30% for sales tax and tip on top. I would say drinks at bars and pubs are probably more expensive than syd because you're pretty much tipping $1 to $1.50 per drink.

Have to say i disagree with this. In the US at a fine dining restaurant we were struggling to spend $200 (total) for a 3 course meal and drinks. Here in Aus a 3 course meal at an 'average' restaurant will cost at least $200. Or around $300 for fine dining

Everywhere we ate seemed 30 - 50% cheaper imo. Plus the service is much better

 

[sydboy007]

I've lost count of the number of times I've been told "I don't want any Chinese rubbish" in the context of electrical or electronic goods. It's an increasingly common view it seems.

The moment a manufacturer moves production to China is the moment they give away their intellectual property and lose the value of their brand. I think it's only CEO's that struggle to comprehend this as it's obvious to most.

Very true.

Though I think the Chinese Govt is slowly realising that if they don't respect IP then they will struggle to get globally competitive companies that produce innovative products and generate the patents that are fast becoming necessary to have some form of protection from litigation.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Have to say i disagree with this. In the US at a fine dining restaurant we were struggling to spend $200 (total) for a 3 course meal and drinks. Here in Aus a 3 course meal at an 'average' restaurant will cost at least $200. Or around $300 for fine dining

Everywhere we ate seemed 30 - 50% cheaper imo. Plus the service is much better

Agree, eating out here is more expensive than Europe, and the service is worse.

gg

 

[sydboy007]

Very true.

Though I think the Chinese Govt is slowly realising that if they don't respect IP then they will struggle to get globally competitive companies that produce innovative products and generate the patents that are fast becoming necessary to have some form of protection from litigation.

Have to say i disagree with this. In the US at a fine dining restaurant we were struggling to spend $200 (total) for a 3 course meal and drinks. Here in Aus a 3 course meal at an 'average' restaurant will cost at least $200. Or around $300 for fine dining

Everywhere we ate seemed 30 - 50% cheaper imo. Plus the service is much better

Must admit I only went to mid price establishments or cafes. IF you are including alcohol in the bill then a large part would be the lower alcohol tax. I couldn't believe I could buy 12 yr old scotch at the super market at less than duty free prices. My taste buds were happy though

 

[McLovin]

Have to say i disagree with this. In the US at a fine dining restaurant we were struggling to spend $200 (total) for a 3 course meal and drinks. Here in Aus a 3 course meal at an 'average' restaurant will cost at least $200. Or around $300 for fine dining

Everywhere we ate seemed 30 - 50% cheaper imo. Plus the service is much better

The quality of food at each price point in Australia is significantly higher than the US, IME. I'd say that applies to Europe as well.

 

[prawn_86]

The quality of food at each price point in Australia is significantly higher than the US, IME. I'd say that applies to Europe as well.

You have spent a lot more time in the US than I so i wont doubt you. OUr experiences over there were when comparing apples with apples (or in this case a nice bar's burgers in each country) then it was very similar. Perhaps it is because we specifically sought out places in the US that were known for their food

 

[IFocus]

While I agree with this and it is difficult to make detailed comparisons, the fact that the US minimum sanctioned wage is $7.25 including tips (cash only is $2.13 when tips are allowed) means that our minimum wage is at least twice theirs. That is a huge difference!

Don't know if you are aware but USA middle class earnings have fallen below 1989 levels, I think thats unacceptable by any measure given the expansion of US GDP and top end wealth.

So when people talk about US low wages basically they are talking about a under class of working poor.

Is that what we should be striving for?

I notice low wages hasn't done a whole lot for their unemployment numbers either.

BTW not being critical just saying.

 

[Miner]

Apart from the strong aussie dollar, this is the second biggest reason for the uncompetitiveness of AUS. There is a minimum wage that is prescribed by the government but the actual minimum is supply and demand and can be the quite high. Even at the AUD at .80 r .85, the wages will be uncompetitive.

Moreover this serves as a disincentive for gaining further qualifications thus increasing our reliance on overseas skilled workers.

You are right.
So our kids from year 10 onwards prefer to do the VAT (Vocational Test something for TAFE) than going for year 12 whereas kids of South Asia and South East Asia origin venture for universities. Look at most of the universities and see who are there. Trolley pushers - look who are running there. Well our Aussie kids of British/Australian origin go to TAFE become excellent Fitters, Shot firers (mining), Electricians - earn excellent money to buy big houses but end of the day skill gap remains in other areas. So import doctors, engineers, IT specialists en masse from overseas !!! Universities pay so poorly and teachers have no practical skills but excellent Ph Ds. So we produce rotten university graduates barring few. Again we import teachers even from overseas. It is catch 22 situation.
We need to be more patriotic than just waving flags on 26 January or observing ANZAC day .

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

You are right.
So our kids from year 10 onwards prefer to do the VAT (Vocational Test something for TAFE) than going for year 12 whereas kids of South Asia and South East Asia origin venture for universities. Look at most of the universities and see who are there. Trolley pushers - look who are running there. Well our Aussie kids of British/Australian origin go to TAFE become excellent Fitters, Shot firers (mining), Electricians - earn excellent money to buy big houses but end of the day skill gap remains in other areas. So import doctors, engineers, IT specialists en masse from overseas !!! Universities pay so poorly and teachers have no practical skills but excellent Ph Ds. So we produce rotten university graduates barring few. Again we import teachers even from overseas. It is catch 22 situation.
We need to be more patriotic than just waving flags on 26 January or observing ANZAC day .

+1

gg

 

[Miner]

Not sure about Canada but in the US there's a hidden cost in the form of tipping which, in the US, goes to ridiculous extent where we'd never think of doing it in Australia.

Buy practically anything in the US and the price you pay will be higher than the sticker price. Taxes are hidden in most cases - eg the sticker says $10 but you'll be charged extra for tax and this extra is not optional. Tips likewise - they may not be part of the official price but they are not optional in most cases that's for sure.

It's difficult to compare wages and costs in Australia versus the US for this reason.

In Canada also there is a standard practice of paying tip and it is not hidden. In fact if you are going to a party of more than 8 - the tip automatically becomes 18% in most good joints. But Hey, think of this - the wages are already low considering there will be a tip by most if not all. If you take a sandwich for $5 you often do not pay tip. WOrking lunches during office time cost $5 to $8 plus tax - hardly any tip.
Even if you decide to pay tip how much you pay for $8 lunch ? $1 to $1.60 max.
Yes, I am getting used to pay 12 to 14% tax but that does not go to the wages for the guys. In fact it is astronomically cheap when I bought a Hugo Boss watch for $200 against its original price of $1800 - not fake. Excellent Branded Jacket from Macey in USA at 80% discount. Even New Kelvin Underwear costs more than the jacket. So tax does not matter. We go to Seattle regularly and prices of goods are unrealistically cheap.
Besides, you can return anything within 30 days including opened up yoghurt boxes, used lap top in USA and Canada if you retained receipts.
Gone are the days that US taxi drivers feel bad if you do not pay tips. In fact they profusely thank if you pay tip. Exception Las Vegas.
I am still catching up to pay more than 15% tip being an Australian . But even after tips, taxes meals are cheaper. Sometimes lunch is so big in USA that one can easily pack the left over for lunch (it is a regular custom) - so you save a lot even from a good eating place
I am learning the culture to pay tip