Australian Job Losses

[prawn_86]

I also honestly think that the unemployment rate is allot higher then being "said".
Is it also fair to say that 8 out of 10 business have shredded their work force?

Also Tatt's Group have just moved from VIC to QLD (only two weeks ago) and they are working on 50% less head count.

'Underemployemt' is at a smidge under 20%. This is the amount of people who are not getting the hours they want to work (up to FT)

 

[sydboy007]

i recently saw some farriers protesting about cars recently, and a few chimney sweeps complaining there were no more wood / coal fires.

Economies change, and the best we can do is hope to change with the structural adjustment in the fairest way we can.

I know there is a lot of underemployment, and the sad reality of the casualisation of the workforce is part of the cost / benefit of globalisation. It works on a national / global level but suxs should you be on the wrong side of things

I know 1 day my job will end up in vietnam or indai or..

Though i had to laugh that a customer called up yesterday having f/w issues and their support was handled via Vietnam. They had to wait till 11am before the support got into the office. No idea what the 2 days of trouble cost them, but would say they would have been far better off keeping my company supporting it and being able to sort things out in hours, not days.

I'm also wondering when rich countries will realise that a carbon tax" of some sort will change the economics of manufacturing - shipping product tothe moon and back will not be so cost effective) - in such a way as to probably bring a lot back to larger economies - Australia would prob luck out since our market is generally subeconomic

 

[drsmith]

I'm also wondering when rich countries will realise that a carbon tax" of some sort will change the economics of manufacturing - shipping product tothe moon and back will not be so cost effective) - in such a way as to probably bring a lot back to larger economies - Australia would prob luck out since our market is generally subeconomic

The carbon tax increases the cost of energy overall and therefore weakens our economic competitiveness relative to the rest of the world.

It's not rocket science.

 

[Smurf1976]

I'm also wondering when rich countries will realise that a carbon tax" of some sort will change the economics of manufacturing - shipping product tothe moon and back will not be so cost effective) - in such a way as to probably bring a lot back to larger economies - Australia would prob luck out since our market is generally subeconomic

That is only true if it applies to all countries and to international shipping. Otherwise it simply relocates energy-intensive production to a non or low carbon taxing country as is already happening.

 

[rcm617]

That is only true if it applies to all countries and to international shipping. Otherwise it simply relocates energy-intensive production to a non or low carbon taxing country as is already happening.

Noticed today PSH is ceasing making soda ash in Australia. One of the reasons mentioned was higher energy costs due to the carbon tax, as well as high labour costs, high Aussie dollar, high compliance costs and cheaper shipping costs.
It seems to me the carbon tax in this instance is actually resulting in more carbon being used, as on top of the carbon used in the manufacturing process, we now have carbon being used to ship the soda ash halfway around the world.

 

[Bushman]

Noticed today PSH is ceasing making soda ash in Australia. One of the reasons mentioned was higher energy costs due to the carbon tax, as well as high labour costs, high Aussie dollar, high compliance costs and cheaper shipping costs.
It seems to me the carbon tax in this instance is actually resulting in more carbon being used, as on top of the carbon used in the manufacturing process, we now have carbon being used to ship the soda ash halfway around the world.

Adelaide Brightons strategy to mitigate the impact of a carbon tax -
1. enhance import flexibility
2. reduce reliance on domestic manufacturing
3. increase use of alternative fuels and cement substitutes.

1 & 2 equals more job losses in Australia, as another company with a global reach moves manufacturing to jurisdictions without a punitive carbon tax.

Point 3 points to fuel substitution or product innovation down the line.

The tragedy for those impacted by the first two strategies is that they will not have a job and are unlikely to have the skills to transfer to these new industries.

The farcical nature of this poorly conceived tax burden is that all the tax does is move production to other jurisdictions that do not have a carbon tax with no net impact on greenhouse gas!! It is so mindlessly frustrating.

An alternative would have been invest as a nation in alt fuels and cement substitutes until you create a price competitive, low carbon emmission product. Re-skill workers in non-green industries. Then let the market do what it does best.

 

[orr]

Noticed today PSH is ceasing making soda ash in Australia. One of the reasons mentioned was higher energy costs due to the carbon tax, as well as high labour costs, high Aussie dollar, high compliance costs and cheaper shipping costs.
It seems to me the carbon tax in this instance is actually resulting in more carbon being used, as on top of the carbon used in the manufacturing process, we now have carbon being used to ship the soda ash halfway around the world.

Just as a note here PSH tanked to .06c from over $2 before the carbon tax and has since its introduction more than doubled, to in the last week up to .15c.
So it begs the question, with no carbon tax where would they be now? Any takers? This reeks of obfuscation at best or BS from a management

 

[rcm617]

Just as a note here PSH tanked to .06c from over $2 before the carbon tax and has since its introduction more than doubled, to in the last week up to .15c.
So it begs the question, with no carbon tax where would they be now? Any takers? This reeks of obfuscation at best or BS from a management

PSH has been in trouble for a long time, like a lot of the industries exposed to imports and the strong $A. The carbon tax is just one more nail in the coffin, however in cases where a company is already on the brink, an extra expense certainly doesnt help.
It also doesnt negate the fact that in a case like this, more carbon will now be used to supply the soda ash to Australia.
The same will apply to many other struggling Aussie companies competing against cheaper imports, the extra cost of the carbon tax just makes them that little bit more uncompetitive.

 

[Smurf1976]

Just as a note here PSH tanked to .06c from over $2 before the carbon tax and has since its introduction more than doubled, to in the last week up to .15c.
So it begs the question, with no carbon tax where would they be now? Any takers? This reeks of obfuscation at best or BS from a management

Financial markets are forward looking by nature.

I think it's fair to say however that Australia is now uncompetitive for essentially all forms of manufacturing with very few exceptions. Even food processing is heading to the "export the crop, import the finished product" approach. Look in the supermarket freezers and there's plenty of things grown here, sent offshore for processing then imported back as a final product for sale.

If Penrice shuts the soda plant then that leaves us without critical materials for, amongst other things, glass manufacture. Just wait for the inevitable war and then we'll be completely stuffed with our ability to manufacture even basic things being slowly but surely dismantled.

 

[howmanyru]

I used to have a good job in the electronic manufacturing industry. Then we decided to make the product in China and we all lost our jobs. The company didn't care, it's all about proft margin not people. A lot of good manufacturing jobs have left this country for good, along with the expertise. Sure, you can re train as i did and move into another field, but it's not easy to do as you get older, and who wants to compete with thousands of young Uni grads?? The good thing about manufacturing is it's labour intensive, thus employing lots of people. It also employs a great diversity of people: engineers, admin, process workers, IT, warehouse, techs, sales, purchasing, etc, etc. The loss of manufacturing is a sad thing for Aus.

 

[sptrawler]

How many of these companies are in effect being gagged by the government, with the compensation packages.
Even the village idiot would know there would be provisos on the handouts.lol
Another rope the dope occassion.IMO

 

[CanOz]

I used to have a good job in the electronic manufacturing industry. Then we decided to make the product in China and we all lost our jobs. The company didn't care, it's all about proft margin not people. A lot of good manufacturing jobs have left this country for good, along with the expertise. Sure, you can re train as i did and move into another field, but it's not easy to do as you get older, and who wants to compete with thousands of young Uni grads?? The good thing about manufacturing is it's labour intensive, thus employing lots of people. It also employs a great diversity of people: engineers, admin, process workers, IT, warehouse, techs, sales, purchasing, etc, etc. The loss of manufacturing is a sad thing for Aus.

Big surprise here....

things are changing in the US though...and China's quality is not the best....Read "Poorly Made in China"

The only question though, is what is going to defeat the "I'm in a Union, can't be arsed working unless i get heat money, dust money, cold money, sweat money, wet money, thinking money..." attitude.

That killed Australian Manufacturing.:frown:



CanOz

 

[Smurf1976]

things are changing in the US though...and China's quality is not the best....Read "Poorly Made in China"

I've lost count of the number of times I've been told "I don't want any Chinese rubbish" in the context of electrical or electronic goods. It's an increasingly common view it seems.

The moment a manufacturer moves production to China is the moment they give away their intellectual property and lose the value of their brand. I think it's only CEO's that struggle to comprehend this as it's obvious to most.

 

[Gundini]

Big surprise here....

things are changing in the US though...and China's quality is not the best....Read "Poorly Made in China"

The only question though, is what is going to defeat the "I'm in a Union, can't be arsed working unless i get heat money, dust money, cold money, sweat money, wet money, thinking money..." attitude.

That killed Australian Manufacturing.:frown:



CanOz

I 100% agree unions are a major contributor to the demise of Australian manufacturing. You can also blame the Australian Gov. with the "I deserve" attitude where people accept free money for no effort.

 

[Smurf1976]

At some point in the not too distant future we're going to be left with no industries at which we are actually competitive.

What do we really have now that is truly competitive? Manufacturing? No. Agriculture? Not really. Mining? Suffice to say we're getting priced out of new LNG developments so even that one is looking iffy. Services? We're not even close.

So my thoughts go along the line that the AUD is fundamentally overvalued since pretty much none of our industries are competitive under the current climate. Logically we should eventually see a fall in the AUD to a point where we're competitive again although that's likely to come about in a disorderly fashion rather than a gradual decline in my opinion.

 

[sydboy007]

I see lots of complaints in this thread, but what solutions do you suggest?

How many of you buy product online from overseas rather than in a store in Australia - costing retail jobs?

How many of you buy the cheaper imported food products - costing farmers and processor jobs?

How many of you hunt around online to find the cheapest price for a product in Australia - lowering retail profits and costing jobs.

For a stock forum there's quite often a lot of greens tinged talk. Either you let the free market operate or we can always try the planned economy model, though you only have to see the number of bridges built to nowhere to see how badly that allocates resources.

Australia is a low-mid rank power. We can't push the rest of the world to play fair, but in general terms we have benefited by lowering the tariff walls and keeping the local industry we have left globally competitive.

If anyone has a way to lower the AUD without causing an inflation spike I'd like to hear it. Imagine the cost of petrol with the AUD down around 0.85 USD. A lower Australian dollar would cure a lot of the issues we are seeing with lost competitiveness, though inflation would take off and interest rates would be rising again to contain it. There's a world hungry for yield out there, so just imagine the billions in hot money that would flood the country, with all the associated problems that would bring us.

We have Conservative Govts in NSW and Victoria pandering to the Nationals and stopping the building of wind farms and exploration for CSG. Someone needs to take the Waubra foundation to court over the lies they spread about wind farms. Barry O'ffarel has his head in the sand about NSW gas supplies. It's going to be a HUGE issue come the next election. Without new CSG supply in the next few years, I really have no idea where gas is going to come from. Pretty much all the CSG in QLD is already marked for export. We might end up importing LNG from WA the way things are going! What's left in the Coopers basin seems destined for export as some of the QLD CSG exporters haven't found enough CSG to support their contracted shipments.

If you're going to blame the carbon price for job losses then please tell me:

* what is the cost of energy for the business
* how does that rate as a % of total costs
* where does the company rank in terms of energy efficiency against domestic and international competitors.

 

[Smurf1976]

Agreed that gas is going to be a huge issue going forward.

Whatever jobs we get from LNG exports today, come at the expense of many more to be lost in domestic industry as gas and electricity prices rise as a result. Long term, it's a dud deal for most Australians.

 

[qldfrog]

I also doubt the carbon tax is much to be blamed in most cases but the fact is this "tax" is actually turned into a huge subsidies for major giants and not bringing any revenue, just costing some increasing the deficit (which is already abysmal when you consider our position 5 years ago)
Billions which could have been better spend in improving our infrastructure and competitivenes...

On the other hand, this government would probably have fund a new way to blow the money into further handouts for the next election or given a feww more biillions to the rio/bhp or holden of this world
I really really believe we need a much lower dollar and/or a serious look at our wages.
a recession we need to have?

 

[qldfrog]

why did I even use holden...too australian of me: GM or Ford... sorry/...

 

[sydboy007]

I also doubt the carbon tax is much to be blamed in most cases but the fact is this "tax" is actually turned into a huge subsidies for major giants and not bringing any revenue, just costing some increasing the deficit (which is already abysmal when you consider our position 5 years ago)
Billions which could have been better spend in improving our infrastructure and competitivenes...

On the other hand, this government would probably have fund a new way to blow the money into further handouts for the next election or given a feww more biillions to the rio/bhp or holden of this world
I really really believe we need a much lower dollar and/or a serious look at our wages.
a recession we need to have?

So true.

I have no problem with the Govt helping an industry to adjust, but the car industry has been adjusting for a couple of decades. I still remember the Button plan - was writing about it in high school economics.

I think the budget needs to itemise in an easily accessible form what the cost is of every subisidy, every tax rebate, tax forgone that is handed out, and then we can start to see where the money flows to or is jus tnot being collected int he first place.

Recent example is the financial industry hoopla over the Govt increasing the foreign investment witholding tax from 7.5% to 15%. They've just bumped it up to the rate that most of our trading partners use. Its the rate that most of the countries we have tax treaties with. So why should a foreign investor get such a big tax break? The yanks don't give us any break lie that. 30% tax unless you fill out the right forms to have it reduced to 15%. Considering the foreign ownership of BHP / RIO I have no problem keep some more of the resource revenue in this country.

As for the likes of Google and ebay etc siphoning off billions in revenue from Australia and paying piddling amounts of tax. Something has got to be done to stop the bleeding of this revenue from the country.