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Australian Job Losses

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Klogg said:
You must be referring to when he is going to give employers SOME of their rights back.

Nothing worse than seeing employers afraid to hire because IR laws are so heavily skewed against them
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I prefer a job with tough conditions than no job at all :)
When the union keep taking and and not giving and don't give too much consideration to
their business employer will have a few choices.

1. Start Sacking people
2. Stop employing people.

See Qantas for example, they will continue the sack then these guys will have all the conditions
they want at home on the couch.

I am for unions and enterprise bargaining but it has to be reasonable not you make xxx profit we want xxx amount.
do these guys put their capital on the line? do they chip in money when the business lose money?
 
ROE said:
Do these guys put their capital on the line? do they chip in money when the business lose money?
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And this is the exact problem I have with it all - employees take ZERO risk, yet want all the rewards that the companies/shareholders should be getting.

If I put 1mil up to form a company and get a 20% return on my money, then my employees complain about record profits, I'd be wanting to bring in foreign workers to take their jobs too!
 
Klogg said:
And this is the exact problem I have with it all - employees take ZERO risk,
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Except when they apply for a loan, or have a family, or take some leave, or get genuinely sick or injured etc. Their lives typically exist in 3-year blocks if they are lucky to be on an EBA, or week-to-week if not. Not to mention the burgeoning proportion of casuals (maximum flexibility to the employer only) who don't even know from one week to the next if they will earn any money at all. How can anyone make any sort of financial commitments under that scenario? it is a huge risk if they do!

Verrrry hard for any employee to plan for the future when the employer won't take the risk of giving him one.
 
Eager said:
Except when they apply for a loan, or have a family, or take some leave, or get genuinely sick or injured etc. Their lives typically exist in 3-year blocks if they are lucky to be on an EBA, or week-to-week if not. Not to mention the burgeoning proportion of casuals (maximum flexibility to the employer only) who don't even know from one week to the next if they will earn any money at all. How can anyone make any sort of financial commitments under that scenario? it is a huge risk if they do!

Verrrry hard for any employee to plan for the future when the employer won't take the risk of giving him one.
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As an employee, zero risk. Outside of work, different story.

I'm an IT contractor, I work on 3month rolling contracts. I have a mortgage, don't get paid for sick or annual leave. I have the correct money aside and insurances in place if any such thing should happen to me.

Would you rather that people find it had to make financial commitments, or restrict the employer and ultimately lead to people not having the option to make financial commitments at all?
 
Klogg said:
Would you rather that people find it had to make financial commitments, or restrict the employer and ultimately lead to people not having the option to make financial commitments at all?
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Employee takes a risk: Has a job, takes out a loan, loses his job, spends the rest of his life living in a caravan park.

Employer takes a risk: Buys a job, business goes bad, winds up business and changes its name and ABN, carries on unimpeded.
 
Eager said:
It's all your fault, because you preferred to buy a foreign built car instead of a Falcon or Territory.
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Actually, Territory sales have been holding up quite well over the last two quarters. Falcon competes (and not very well) in the fastest declining automobile category, large sedans. I might add that those "foreign built cars" are the best sellers for Ford and Holden into the retail market. The sad reality is that the cost of production is simply to high in Australia and the local industry is not building the cars most people want to buy now - smaller, very fuel efficient cars.

As for the virtues of being an IT contractor on 3 month rolling contracts, I have been on that roller coaster myself and it sucks. Offer a good permanent position with a financially sound company at a decent salary and most of the IT contractors I know will accept it the same day its offered. The growing casualization of the workforce is a sign of a weakening domestic economy and has little to offer most workers, the vast majority of whom prefer a stable job that can offer them the prospect of building a career.
 
FxTrader said:
and the local industry is not building the cars most people want to buy now - smaller, very fuel efficient cars.
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I know, I know, but it annoys the crap out of me. The difference between a Mazda 3 and a Falcon or Commodore in fuel costs is no more than a handful of dollars every week, but people have this perception of large = uneconomical. Yet, they buy a Kluger instead of a Territory for their "main" car, which is more thirsty! :banghead:

It is the same with diesel fuelled cars - and I've spoken about this before, here or elsewhere - people have this perception of economical motoring, but they ignore the additional purchase price, the higher fuel costs, and the higher servicing costs. Fools!

Why the media does not promote the local car manufacturing industry is beyond me.
 
Eager said:
I know, I know, but it annoys the crap out of me. The difference between a Mazda 3 and a Falcon or Commodore in fuel costs is no more than a handful of dollars every week, but people have this perception of large = uneconomical.
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They may be buying the Mazda out of simple preference, not necessarily to do with fuel consumption.

Fools!
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Of course they are. Just because they happen to disagree with you.

Why the media does not promote the local car manufacturing industry is beyond me.
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Why should the media do any such thing? Any item should be able to stand on its merits without either taxpayer support or propping up by private media companies.
 
Julia said:
Of course they are. Just because they happen to disagree with you.
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I remember when I first joined ASF, my very first reply to something that you posted contained exasperation at your inability to take things at face value. So it continues.

LISTEN!!!!!!!!!!!!

People buy diesel cars because of their economy. Diesel cars are more expensive to buy than petrol cars. Diesel costs more at the bowser than petrol. Diesel cars are more expensive to service than petrol cars.

I have an opinion that if a person buys a diesel car for its economy, then it is a false economy. Consequently they are fools for their choices, not because I say so.
 
ROE said:
I prefer a job with tough conditions than no job at all :)
When the union keep taking and and not giving and don't give too much consideration to
their business employer will have a few choices.

1. Start Sacking people
2. Stop employing people.

See Qantas for example, they will continue the sack then these guys will have all the conditions
they want at home on the couch.

I am for unions and enterprise bargaining but it has to be reasonable not you make xxx profit we want xxx amount.
do these guys put their capital on the line? do they chip in money when the business lose money?
Click to expand...

Qantas are an interesting example. They cant really compete against overseas carriers with the wages and conditions that Australian workers want and indeed need to survive in Australia. It is a bit of catch 22. The only real solution is to base their overseas operations offshore and that of course means that those workers will join the dole queue as well. But you cant expect the workers to work for the same wages as people get in many other countries as you just couldnt survive on those wages in Australia.

This is increasingly more likely to happen in many industries in Australia in the coming years.

The global workforce is huge and that means there are many with skills who are prepared to work for far less than what your avergage australian is used to.
 
Eager said:
IPeople buy diesel cars because of their economy. Diesel cars are more expensive to buy than petrol cars. Diesel costs more at the bowser than petrol. Diesel cars are more expensive to service than petrol cars.

I have an opinion that if a person buys a diesel car for its economy, then it is a false economy. Consequently they are fools for their choices, not because I say so.
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Therein lies the problem with Ford and Holden.

They need to manufacture what people actually want to buy, not what the company thinks they ought to buy.

If customers want diesel then that's what they need to be selling, otherwise those customers will simply go elsewhere. Whether the customer is wrong or right has nothing to do with it. Business 101 - give them what they want, and if that's diesel then so be it.:2twocents
 
Smurf1976 said:
Therein lies the problem with Ford and Holden.

They need to manufacture what people actually want to buy, not what the company thinks they ought to buy.
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And that's the whole point. Pretty silly to bleat about falling sales when refusing to take account of what people actually want to buy.
 
Julia said:
And that's the whole point. Pretty silly to bleat about falling sales when refusing to take account of what people actually want to buy.
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I actually agree with that, but only because the motoring public have been stooged into thinking that they need to buy something unneccesarily small and/or foreign.

The marketing ability of Ford Australia has been atrocious over the years. Holden, despite declining sales of the Commodore, has done better in that V8 variants still account for (anectdotally) around 20% of sales. The Commodore has been a fleet favourite too, again due to perception; they have smaller engines than, but use no less petrol in the real world than Falcons. Again anecdotally, the sales comparison between Falcon and Commodore for those that pay for new cars with their own money is not that different.

But yes, smaller cars are in vogue. The medium sized Holden Cruze is as popular as the Commodore now, and Ford stuffed up majorly by not going ahead with local production of the globally popular Focus. It is a different situation now to the 'fuel crisis' in the 1970's when people stopped buying Valiants in favour of the Galant. Small cars are somewhat worthy now, but I still maintain that it is a crying shame that few are aware how worthy the locally produced product is too. We all suffer as a result.
 
The car business has a lot in common with the food business.

There may well be a logical, rational reason for buying a certain car due to the "facts and figures" or for eating salads because they are healthy.

But in the real world, you can create a global chain selling burgers or fried chicken but you'd be hard pressed to do the same selling salad rolls despite the numerous rational reasons as to why the latter is preferable. For the same reason it's folly to persist in trying to sell cars that people don't want to buy no matter how good they might be "on paper".
 
Julia said:
They may be buying the Mazda out of simple preference, not necessarily to do with fuel consumption.
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I had a Toyota made in Japan bought it second hand, no issues for 10 years
I then give Aussie car a go a Holden.

Never again I buy it :) got rid of it after 5 years
you can come up with the world most fuel efficient car and I still wouldn't touch it

I bought Mazda made in Japan again 5 years into it no issue what so ever.

Aussie can manufacture some good stuff but car wise I think they need
to learn from the Japanese and the German ...
 

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