Asylum-seekers 'dead, missing' in explosion on way to Christmas Island

[Julia]

Julia, I'll put my next years wage on it.. Not trying to be cocky, just trying to 'explain' how they think.. It's a very different mentality to what most of 'us' would consider 'rational'.. Hence they find themselves bobbing around in a leaky wreck (and thats another point, they don't use 'good' vessels for this sort of trip, as it is generally a one way deployment). Not sure how much time you've spent up top, but life is VERY cheap in many of the Asian countries.. OH&S isn't one of their strong points either..

I've spent many many months, on more than a few occasions, 'hanging' around Xmas Is in support of operation RELEX.. I guess I'm speaking from experience.. Oddly some find it hard to accept.. It'll be interesting to see how the media twist it for some political gain, as they did with the children overboard. Oh, and they may find this country more hospitable if they played by the rules..



Hmm.. not sure where you are going with that, but if you're suggesting that it is of little concern to me I can assure you that it is my foremost concern.. These Guys and Gals, sadly, don't get enough recognition for what they do day in day out.. Having spent in excess of 25 years in the RAN (and only recently discharged) I guess I can speak from experience on this too. I certainly hope our troops are not seriously hurt..

What annoys me the most is that 'real' warships stopped patrolling up north last Sep/Nov due to fuel costs.. The patrol boats took over (it could be argued that it was intended for them to commence operations as they came on line) however, they don't really have the capability to do it right. No smears on the professionalism of these guys in any way, it's just a matter of numbers. A FFH/FFG has a complement of 150 -200 troops, a Patrol boat is lucky to have a fifth of that number, so a boarding party taken from the crew of a patrol boat significantly affects the ability of that boat to function..

K Rudd has to answer some hard questions regarding the softening of policy in my opinion.. Hopefully the Australian populace will start asking them..

I may be mistaken, but after rereading you post a few times I cant help but feel from the 'tone' of your post you don't share my view and find my attitude less than 'tasteful'.. No drama's, we don't agree on this particular subject.. But we can still be friends, can't we..

Regards,

Buster

Buster, I can't imagine why you'd imagine from my post that I don't agree with you. Maybe you don't get my "tone" of irony, even sarcasm towards the motives of these so called asylum seekers.

And why on earth would you not think I have every concern for our Navy personnel??? That was the point of my mentioning them, as any injuries they may have sustained seem to have been given almost no media attention.

Maybe read my remarks again. The Rudd government's softening of border protection/rights of asylum seekers has seen this considerable increase in boats coming to Australia. I found it nauseating to listen to Rudd on "PM" this evening saying 'how tough he would be on these lowest of the low people smugglers'.

Yeah, right.

 

[Buster]

Hey Julia,

Buster, I can't imagine why..

Oops.. PM sent..

Regards,

Buster.

 

[Underpants Gnome]

There are some truly disgusting attitudes in this thread. It's unbelievable how quick people are to judge and condemn people they've never met and know nothing about. But I guess it's easy to do that from your comfortable homes, where you can sit around and talk **** on forums and not have to think about the real world around you.

Buster - That's a great story. Obviously you and your HMAS Adelaide mates are privvy to information that wasn't made available during the senate inquiry. Maybe you should provide some evidence, then you might have some credibility instead of being just another crackpot on the internet ranting to anyone who'll listen.

Julia - The only reason they might feel uncomfortable is because of the ignorant, hateful locals they're sure to encounter over here. Pro tip: the culture in SE Asia and the Middle East is not 'the same'.

robandcoll - How about we hear the full story (from the beginning) from everyone on that boat, and from the people they're supposedly cutting in front of in the line, then decide who's more in need of medical treatment?

Get a clue

Disclaimer: not a KRudd supporter, it's just a very appropriate image

 

[Buster]

There are some truly disgusting attitudes in this thread. It's unbelievable how quick people are to judge and condemn people they've never met and know nothing about. But I guess it's easy to do that from your comfortable homes, where you can sit around and talk **** on forums and not have to think about the real world around you.

Almost as easy as keeping your head in the sand mate..

That's a great story. Obviously you and your HMAS Adelaide mates are privvy to information that wasn't made available during the senate inquiry. Maybe you should provide some evidence, then you might have some credibility instead of being just another crackpot on the internet ranting to anyone who'll listen.

Ha ha.. Not sure WHO the senate inquiry talked to, certainly not me or anyone else I know barring Norm (the skipper) and he got slapped into place real early in the piece for reasons unknown. Same bone with the NEWCASTLE incident, despite volunteering my information.. They only want hear what the want to hear mate..

I do know, from you know actually being there, that Alexander Downer was briefed, by fellow internet crackpots that actually witnessed little adults (aka children) bobbing around in the water, and witness to ADELAIDE crew members jumping over the side to aid said little adults, of the events sometime later.

Whilst your handing out all the advice matey, you might like to take some on yourself.. A 'Pro tip' that you can call your very own.. Join the Puss buddy, do some time up there and you just might find that the 'holier than thou' perspective may change..

Ahh, if only we could all live life though the little goggle box on the wall..

Regards,

Buster

 

[robandcoll]

robandcoll - How about we hear the full story (from the beginning) from everyone on that boat, and from the people they're supposedly cutting in front of in the line, then decide who's more in need of medical treatment?

Underpants - Just go down to emergency at any Perth hospital and you will understand what I mean.

Its not a disgusting attitude - just saying it as I see it. Should be more of it.

 

[Julia]

Julia - The only reason they might feel uncomfortable is because of the ignorant, hateful locals they're sure to encounter over here. Pro tip: the culture in SE Asia and the Middle East is not 'the same'.

They are all Muslim countries. Australia is (so far) not.

 

[noco]

Buster, I can't imagine why you'd imagine from my post that I don't agree with you. Maybe you don't get my "tone" of irony, even sarcasm towards the motives of these so called asylum seekers.

And why on earth would you not think I have every concern for our Navy personnel??? That was the point of my mentioning them, as any injuries they may have sustained seem to have been given almost no media attention.

Maybe read my remarks again. The Rudd government's softening of border protection/rights of asylum seekers has seen this considerable increase in boats coming to Australia. I found it nauseating to listen to Rudd on "PM" this evening saying 'how tough he would be on these lowest of the low people smugglers'.

Yeah, right.

Julia, the Australian Federal Police warned KRUDD his Government had gone too soft on boarder control montha ago and he has tkaen no notice.

He has the audacity to front up to the media this morning on Austar 601 stating these people smugglers should rot in hell. Isn't that the "pot callind the kettle Black" when he is the one at fault. He has blood on his hands.

 

[Calliope]

Mr Rudd's tirade against the people smugglers has a hollow ring to it. Our Border Protection people appear to be working hand-in-glove with the smugglers.

The smugglers bring the illegals into Australian waters and then our people take over and bring them to their destination. The smugglers advise their clients to disable their boat before being transferred to our boats to prevent them being turned around. But for some unknown reason we don't do that anyway. We take them where they want to go.

Our Border Protection forces are not protecting our borders they are facilitating illegal entry. The illegals know that once they reach Australian jurisdiction they very rarely get sent back.

 

[Underpants Gnome]

Morning all, I was expecting to have my head bitten off for those comments, seems I got off easy Cheers.

Almost as easy as keeping your head in the sand mate..

Sure, if keeping your head in the sand means attempting to understand both sides of the story to come up with a fair conclusion. Yeah I guess that's almost as easy as posting on a forum.

Ha ha.. Not sure WHO the senate inquiry talked to, certainly not me or anyone else I know barring Norm (the skipper) and he got slapped into place real early in the piece for reasons unknown. Same bone with the NEWCASTLE incident, despite volunteering my information.. They only want hear what the want to hear mate..

I do know, from you know actually being there, that Alexander Downer was briefed, by fellow internet crackpots that actually witnessed little adults (aka children) bobbing around in the water, and witness to ADELAIDE crew members jumping over the side to aid said little adults, of the events sometime later.

You seem to have misunderstood - I asked for evidence, not more of the same stories. In any case it's moot, because even if what you're saying is 100% true it doesn't change my opinion on the matter. Unless you've been in such a dire and desperate situation yourself you're in no position to judge.

Whilst your handing out all the advice matey, you might like to take some on yourself.. A 'Pro tip' that you can call your very own.. Join the Puss buddy, do some time up there and you just might find that the 'holier than thou' perspective may change..

Sorry, don't swing that way

Underpants - Just go down to emergency at any Perth hospital and you will understand what I mean.

Its not a disgusting attitude - just saying it as I see it. Should be more of it.

The 'disgusting attitude' was more a general comment, not directed at you specifically. Perth's a bit far away for me to travel (~5 hours by plane then 10 years back in time ha ha) so you'll have to clue me in.

They are all Muslim countries. Australia is (so far) not.

You mentioned religion and culture, and I only commented on the culture part as I'm well aware that they're both Islamic countries. Australia (and Indonesia I think you'll find) has this crazy concept of religious freedom so we actually 'tolerate' people of any religion. Fancy that.

By and large people from all cultures are accepted here, except maybe by people operating under the misguided notion that we're being overrun by immigrants...

 

[moXJO]

By and large people from all cultures are accepted here, except maybe by people operating under the misguided notion that we're being overrun by immigrants...

Last time I checked our immigration levels are at the highest it has ever been. I am fine with people seeking a better life through legal channels. It actually benefits the country in the long run.

But illegal immigration is another story. And as far as the consequences of opening the flood gates. You don't have to look much further then London and peoples reactions there

If however they retrained these people into productive members of Australian society. Using some of the vast amount of money they must spend on border control. I would probably have less of a problem. I don't doubt there are probably good people on these boats. But they won't be winning any fans by coming in the way they are.

Your first post went a bit far. Personally involved somehow?

 

[Underpants Gnome]

Last time I checked our immigration levels are at the highest it has ever been. I am fine with people seeking a better life through legal channels. It actually benefits the country in the long run.

That's a far cry from being 'overrun', which makes it sound like a plague or something.

But illegal immigration is another story. And as far as the consequences of opening the flood gates. You don't have to look much further then London and peoples reactions there

Did you click the link in my first post? Seeking asylum is not illegal.

http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com...tralian/comments/asylum_seekers_not_illegal2/

If however they retrained these people into productive members of Australian society. Using some of the vast amount of money they must spend on border control. I would probably have less of a problem. I don't doubt there are probably good people on these boats. But they won't be winning any fans by coming in the way they are.

They're fighting to survive, not competing on Australian Idol.

Your first post went a bit far. Personally involved somehow?

No, not involved at all, and I don't think I went too far. Just not impressed with a bunch of people making ill-informed remarks, digging the boot into another group of people who don't have a voice here.

I don't mean to offend but I'm not going to hold back on expressing my views.

Cheers

 

[Julia]

Underpants you seem to be confusing illegal immigrants with migrants who go with the rules and apply to come here in an orderly fashion.

I don't think any of us have said we are against immigration - difference stops a country from becoming insular and complacent.

Of course we can understand the desire of Afghanis and Iraquis etc to escape their own countries, but why in particular Australia, probably one of the furthest away places they can aim for?

Why not simply stop once they reach Indonesia?

Btw I suspect you are not really interested in a genuine discussion but rather have set out to stir.

 

[moXJO]

Did you click the link in my first post? Seeking asylum is not illegal

Why not go through legal channels instead of paying their way to get smuggled in.

They're fighting to survive.

If that were the case why travel so far at such a great expense.

No, not involved at all, and I don't think I went too far. Just not impressed with a bunch of people making ill-informed remarks, digging the boot into another group of people who don't have a voice here.

I don't mean to offend but I'm not going to hold back on expressing my views.

Cheers

Fair enough, we always need an opposing point of view to keep us in check.
But what is your personal opinion of what should be done when dealing with these boat people?

 

[Underpants Gnome]

Hi Julia,

I'm not sure why you think that; is it because I disagree with the general consensus here? I feel I've put more effort into qualifying my arguments than most in this thread so I'm almost a little bit insulted by that. But it's Saturday, I'm in a good mood, got a beer in my hand, so I'll let it slide

Anyway, I don't know how many times I have to point out that there's nothing illegal about what these boat people have done.

"Under international law anyone is entitled to apply for refugee asylum if they are escaping persecution, and Australia, as a signatory to the 1951 United Nations Convention Regarding the Status of Refugees, has an obligation to consider their claim."

http://www.aeufederal.org.au/Campaigns/Myths.pdf

As for why they don't stop in Indonesia, it's because they're not able to gain lawful residence there, so they can't legally work and won't be afforded any human rights.

"Indonesia is not signatory to the 1951 Convention relating to the Status of Refugees nor to the 1967 Protocol; neither does it have any legislative framework for the protection of refugees."

http://www.unhcr.org.au/UNHCR-protlegal-EPIndonesia.shtml

You might also be interested to know that Iraq and Pakistan take in many refugees from Afghanistan (http://www.ruralaustraliansforrefugees.org/). Of course the Taliban have strong links there so if they're out to get you you're probably not safe in those places, although I can't back that up with evidence to say that's part of the reason that some find their way here.

There is no queue to line up in because Australia has no diplomatic representation in the countries they're coming from (http://www.ruralaustraliansforrefugees.org/ - also mentioned in a link I posted earlier). I find your notion of leaving a war-torn country in an "orderly fashion" laughable.

Over 95% or arrivals come by air (http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20090417-A-Crikey-index-Refugees-the-real-story.html), so why is there such concern for the tiny minority of boat arrivals?

Cheers.

 

[derty]

Over 95% or arrivals come by air (http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20090417-A-Crikey-index-Refugees-the-real-story.html), so why is there such concern for the tiny minority of boat arrivals?.

That is very interesting. It all seems like a bit of a storm in a tea cup when you look at the figures. Just another media frenzy that has continued on from Howard's assimilation of Pauline Hanson's policies. No doubt Rudd, being the popularist he is, will see the outcry from the general public that we are being over run by boat people and continue the hard line to appease the masses. Hot air and politics.

The off shore detainment on the cost alone basis is a bad idea if you want to be highlighting the waste of taxpayer dollars, especially when looked at in comparison to the amount that fly into the country. At least the boat people are applying for asylum which is more than can be said for the almost 50,000 that had overstayed their visas in June 2005 and remained in the country ILLEGALLY.

Interesting to see that during the whole Vietnamese boat people saga only 1000 people arrived by boat, which pales in comparison to the 137,000 Vietnamese that were allowed to immigrate officially through refugee camps.

As I said, a storm in a tea cup.

 

[Buster]

Hey Undies..

Sure, if keeping your head in the sand means attempting to understand both sides of the story to come up with a fair conclusion. Yeah I guess that's almost as easy as posting on a forum.

I guess that what you really meant to say in your first post..

seem to have misunderstood - I asked for evidence, not more of the same stories.

Ha ha.. Oh well, if nothing else you've got something to tell the kids at bedtime tonight.. What sort of evidence do you expect to be produced within a forum like this?

Unless you've been in such a dire and desperate situation yourself you're in no position to judge.

No? I think I do.. but, as an Internet Crackpot I cant produce the evidence required, so I guess we should just dismiss the notion.. BTW how do we produce judges then? You know local court jusdge, supreme court etc.. do they have to commit numerous crimes in in order for them to be qualified to judge??

Sorry, don't swing that way

Sadly, I expected a response similar to this.. But, I guess someone has to endure the hardship of paper cuts and ink stains of the shirt pockets..

Bottom line, I've no problem with race or culture.. I've visited many countries and cultures (as you would expect in the >25 years in the Navy) and have always been made extremely welcome by the general public. This is a courtesy I'm more that happy to extend to our anyone that comes here.. via the correct channels of course..

I can certainly understand why people from some of these countries risk life and limb to escape their current environs.. but to accept blindly that they are all genuine asylum seekers is ridiculous.. its a carefully orchestrated business that allows some people to make swags (well, relative to their normal income anyway) of cash, and in many different countries.. It requires risk on the part of the 'paying' passengers, but also risk to others that have to become involved, as demonstrated very recently.

No matter what 'percentage' they make up it should be stopped, as it was when Howard took the hard line.. it came to a halt veeerry rapidly. I supported the previous policy, and have no qualms admitting it, feel free to call me what you will.. Disgusting maybe in your book, but meh, I can live with that..

My view' based on 'my personal experience' is that many 'asylum seekers' are simply seeking a better way of life rather than escaping persecution of some type.. But then I cant produce any quantifiable evidence of that for you, so you should simply dismiss it as fallicy..

I guess the numbers will be sorted by the immigration mob, who, themselves, will be hard pressed trying to determine who is who and what is what as they wont have much evidence to go on either.. The benefit of doubt will surely favour those arriving on the boat..

Anyone got the numbers from the TAMPA BAY by chance.. would be interesting to break them down..

Cheers,

Buster

 

[kitehigh]

There are some truly disgusting attitudes in this thread. It's unbelievable how quick people are to judge and condemn people they've never met and know nothing about. But I guess it's easy to do that from your comfortable homes, where you can sit around and talk **** on forums and not have to think about the real world around you.

Disgusting attitudes in your opinion.

By the way my attitude comes from personally dealing with these people so I think I can safely say I have more experience than you in this regard.

So keep believing in your own little dream world if it makes you sleep better at night. I know my comments won't change your beliefs, but I take offense that you were quick to dismiss peoples attitudes off hand simply because they are opposite to your own.

 

[So_Cynical]

The lead international agency coordinating refugee protection is the Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), which counted 8,400,000 refugees worldwide at the beginning of 2006.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee

I hate que jumpers and have little sympathy for them.

 

[helicart]

I am a health professional and have friends who worked in the detention centres, and I have cared for SAS troops who have worked in Afghanistan.

The bleeding heart volvo socialists who would have every citizen from a third country come and live in Australia are a sad indictment of the ignorance and lack of education of so many Australians......and the matter is only compounded in our schools and universities where a Marxist agenda has highjacked common sense and real world information on such issues as illegal migrants.

Some of my views follow.

- for developed world middle class welfare state citizens to believe all people from around the world deserve a lifestyle like ours is naive in the extreme.

- for the same citizens to want 3rd worlders to come and live in Australia is racist and patronizing......because this attitude holds that other nations, races, and cultures don't have the intelligence or determination to create a free market democracy in their own countries....and they all need to come and get some "she'll be right mate" "we're all equal here mate" Aussie happy go lucky air headed friendliness.....when in fact, this attitude reveals nothing more than how socially, financially, and globally ignorant its believers are.

- most Afghans do not have the wealth to afford the trip to Australia. The ones who can afford it are often of dubious character, many having played a significant role in opium production and distribution, and belong to Afghani mafia type organizations.

- several of the illegal migrants that Leftists insist on calling asylum seekers, were carrying 15-20 kg of gold around their waists when initially detained by the RAN. That's an enormous amount of wealth for an Afghani.

- Australian bleeding hearts continue to make illogical presumptions in blindly accepting these people are "asylum seekers".......Afghanis have asylum and refuge as soon as they cross the boarder into Pakistan. If they choose to cross through 5 more countries and attempt an illegal entry into Australia, they are nothing but economic opportunist queue jumpers, presumably with criminal connections in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Many Australians need to put their lattes down, spend less money at the mall, and get over to the third world to see how the real world functions....they might also benefit from socializing with our defence forces.

 

[Bobby]

I am a health professional and have friends who worked in the detention centres, and I have cared for SAS troops who have worked in Afghanistan.

The bleeding heart volvo socialists who would have every citizen from a third country come and live in Australia are a sad indictment of the ignorance and lack of education of so many Australians......and the matter is only compounded in our schools and universities where a Marxist agenda has highjacked common sense and real world information on such issues as illegal migrants.

Some of my views follow.

- for developed world middle class welfare state citizens to believe all people from around the world deserve a lifestyle like ours is naive in the extreme.

- for the same citizens to want 3rd worlders to come and live in Australia is racist and patronizing......because this attitude holds that other nations, races, and cultures don't have the intelligence or determination to create a free market democracy in their own countries....and they all need to come and get some "she'll be right mate" "we're all equal here mate" Aussie happy go lucky air headed friendliness.....when in fact, this attitude reveals nothing more than how socially, financially, and globally ignorant its believers are.

- most Afghans do not have the wealth to afford the trip to Australia. The ones who can afford it are often of dubious character, many having played a significant role in opium production and distribution, and belong to Afghani mafia type organizations.

- several of the illegal migrants that Leftists insist on calling asylum seekers, were carrying 15-20 kg of gold around their waists when initially detained by the RAN. That's an enormous amount of wealth for an Afghani.

- Australian bleeding hearts continue to make illogical presumptions in blindly accepting these people are "asylum seekers".......Afghanis have asylum and refuge as soon as they cross the boarder into Pakistan. If they choose to cross through 5 more countries and attempt an illegal entry into Australia, they are nothing but economic opportunist queue jumpers, presumably with criminal connections in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Many Australians need to put their lattes down, spend less money at the mall, and get over to the third world to see how the real world functions....they might also benefit from socializing with our defence forces.

Well said !
look forward to more of your posts