Asylum immigrants - Green Light

[drsmith]

yes well it's being treated like a football match, with Collingwood the refugees

The only measure of success is the prevention index, not the cure.

If that's how you wish to see it then Labor and the Greens left a lot of corpses on the playing field.

What is your prevention ?

 

[drsmith]

You don't need to know Nash's game theory (Russell Crowe in 'A beautiful Mind') to think that maybe it also serves your interest to have the kind of leadership that seemingly serve other people's interests.

Yea sky captain, turn those boats around, make examples out them; sure, go to war and kill those nasty terrorists who's there but will be here to kill me because of my values... do it for the team, treat those outsiders as you would a leeching bunch of snakes and ignore and play around our obligations to human rights and dignity... BUT

But when it comes to the team, treat me good OK; help my family out when they're in need... do right by us, your teammates. What's that? Prince Phillips, the consort to the Queen, the man who live in castles and 24 hours flight away from team base, the man who have some dozens of other titles... that man deserve our highest honour for contributions to our society?

Sure, why not. One way to encourage, reward and recognise contribution to the nation is to award those born into privilege and does jack all.

So the bad guys: 0; Team Australia: 1.

What's that? How little tax does Apple pay to Australia from its earnings here? Other multinationals? OK... it will trickle down... something's gonna trickle down.

Having posted that little war dance on a range of topics, don't you think it's better for a nation to be in control of its refugee program rather than outsourcing it to illegal people smuggling operations where the only concern is how much money the smuggling operation can make ?

 

[banco]

Having posted that little war dance on a range of topics, don't you think it's better for a nation to be in control of its refugee program rather than outsourcing it to illegal people smuggling operations where the only concern is how much money the smuggling operation can make ?

At any cost?

 

[drsmith]

At any cost?

Illegal people smuggling as we've all seen doesn't come without costs.

As you've taken an interest in the above question, where do you stand in terms of an answer ?

 

[luutzu]

Having posted that little war dance on a range of topics, don't you think it's better for a nation to be in control of its refugee program rather than outsourcing it to illegal people smuggling operations where the only concern is how much money the smuggling operation can make ?

Have debate this before. Not interested again.

 

[banco]

Illegal people smuggling as we've all seen doesn't come without costs.

As you've taken an interest in the above question, where do you stand in terms of an answer ?

I'd say both the current Government (and to a lesser extent the Rudd/Gillard Government) did some really nasty stuff that shouldn't have been done and if not doing that resulted in more arrivals I'm ok with that as the lesser of two evils.

 

[moXJO]

I'd say both the current Government (and to a lesser extent the Rudd/Gillard Government) did some really nasty stuff that shouldn't have been done and if not doing that resulted in more arrivals I'm ok with that as the lesser of two evils.

It is nasty stuff. But the only reason Rudd/Gillard brought the policy back in was because the few more arrivals turned into too many. They were overwhelmed by the numbers and they were all sitting in detention.

 

[banco]

It is nasty stuff. But the only reason Rudd/Gillard brought the policy back in was because the few more arrivals turned into too many. They were overwhelmed by the numbers and they were all sitting in detention.

The current Government did a good job of obscuring the fact that their policy was to make life as hellish as they could get away with for new arrivals as a deterrent against other would be arrivals. That's why I think most of the media management bull**** they indulged in was aimed at obscuring what they were doing from the Australian public rather than from the people smugglers etc. Although whether the public would have cared or not is another story.

I certainly don't think their "dark victory" is anything to be celebrated. At best it's something regrettable that had to be done.

 

[drsmith]

More to the point, Labor's "dark failure" is something that shouldn't be repeated but Labor and the Greens show little sign of recognising that.

 

[banco]

More to the point, Labor's "dark failure" is something that shouldn't be repeated but Labor and the Greens show little sign of recognising that.

Don't worry Doc I'm sure that Shorten pragmatist that he is won't put the thumbscrews in storage if he gets in and will ensure that any children that make it to these shores will be provided with an experience that will forever damage them.

Oh and you are canny enough to know that the greens have never had any influence on Australia's refugee policy. I assume the references to the Greens are just a recycled talking point.

 

[Bintang]

More to the point, Labor's "dark failure" is something that shouldn't be repeated but Labor and the Greens show little sign of recognising that.

Why do you think Labor and the Greens behave like this? (Perhaps this has been stated before but this is a long thread and I haven’t been able to read every post).

Could they be following the example of Swedish leftists?

In Sweden the left is being criticized for being self-serving when it comes to immigration policy. The charge is that by flooding the country with immigrants and showering them with the social benefits of their welfare state they are able to expand their constituencies at the expense of anti-immigration parties and thereby maintain a stranglehold on power.

 

[Tisme]

If that's how you wish to see it then Labor and the Greens left a lot of corpses on the playing field.

What is your prevention ?

Well I think wiser heads in the past managed to keep our sovereignty of borders fairly well under control, maybe we should look at how they did it:

I'm only guessing here:

Bi partisan national racism?;
Colombo type plans;
Bribes;
Cordial but firm relations with our neighbours;
Retard the economic growth to the snails pace it was before the mining revenues (that's already happening);
Promote the advantages of some other country like the USA or New Zealand.

I'm not privy to the true extent of the problem, nobody but secret squirrels in the circle of Tony Abbotts trust know that, so I don't know how severe the problem is/was.

 

[drsmith]

Bi partisan national racism?;
Colombo type plans;
Bribes;
Cordial but firm relations with our neighbours;
Retard the economic growth to the snails pace it was before the mining revenues (that's already happening);
Promote the advantages of some other country like the USA or New Zealand.

Is that how you think it should be prevented ?

If not, then how ?

 

[drsmith]

Have debate this before. Not interested again.

It's just a question. A simple yes or no will do.

Having posted that little war dance on a range of topics, don't you think it's better for a nation to be in control of its refugee program rather than outsourcing it to illegal people smuggling operations where the only concern is how much money the smuggling operation can make ?

 

[Tisme]

Is that how you think it should be prevented ?

If not, then how ?

I think your question is really how you want me to propose prevention so you can argue the point ...yes?

 

[luutzu]

It's just a question. A simple yes or no will do.

"illegal smugglers"... You think refugees all have their own boat or their own yacht anchored near their seaside mansion or something?

Or smugglers goes around town asking or advertise in the local papers for those interested to give them a call... or just publish their timetable and tickets can be bought at the local box office.

Of course all refugees fleeing their homeland do so illegally; and all organisers do it illegally - and they are not going to take risks of their boat and their properties confiscated and themselves imprisoned if caught; so they won't do it for free either.

So these "illegal smugglers", queue jumpers, invaders... yea sure, label and branding does wonders on everything gov't wanted to sell without wanting to tell much, and simpletons won't be asking too many questions if the slogan sounds right either.


Might want to go beyond slogans and catchphrases. And after that, maybe you'll see that a yes or no answer on complex issues isn't a smart thing to be asking for either.

-----

War dance ha?

Am I the only one who read that it's mandated in Australian law that 2% of public services budget are the be cut back each year - regardless? You know, for efficiency; What's going on with the medicare co-payment? Not going to go away that's for sure; How about "deregulation" of university fees? Good for poor kids without trust funds and no connection yea? Risking some $100K in student debt after 3 years is a good start [figures from the US].

Or take a look at how the 911 rescuers, the heroes who risked their lives digging through asbestos laden, burning rubles to search for survivors then to clean up the city, most were volunteers... see how they were treated a couple of years ago after their work was long done but they're now dying for their trouble and needed assistance from their gov't. Look it up... it's a slab in the face and a kick to the grave by politicians who gave fine speeches about values and unity and blah blah blah.

Do you see much efforts to raise, heck, just collect current rates of tax on large corporations? A recent report find potential extra $10 billions of revenue if tax are raised slightly or collected properly over the next year... but probably not worth it though. Let's kick it to the pensioners and students... that's where the goldmine is.


It's happening right in front of our eyes, just open it. It's not theoretical or me scaremongering you.
So as your mother would say, be careful what you ask for.

 

[moXJO]

I don't think you are getting an answer from any of them doc.

The Howard government had a long time in government dealing with the issue as well.
If there were a simple way to deal with this issue labor would have found it previously. Instead they moved back to Howard policy. At this point we seem to have fewer boats, fewer in detention centers and fewer deaths.

Shouldn't the argument be raising the intake level of refugees from camps. Not letting smugglers earn their blood money.

 

[drsmith]

I don't think you are getting an answer from any of them doc.

The Howard government had a long time in government dealing with the issue as well.
If there were a simple way to deal with this issue labor would have found it previously. Instead they moved back to Howard policy. At this point we seem to have fewer boats, fewer in detention centers and fewer deaths.

Shouldn't the argument be raising the intake level of refugees from camps. Not letting smugglers earn their blood money.

After the criticism they continue to belch out about this government's successful policies, there's a pleasure in watching them dance. It's ultimately very hard to preach from the vacuous high moral ground of a social outcome that results in a 2% death rate and they know it. That's why they dodge the question.

How we accept refugees and the numbers we accept should be separate arguments.

 

[drsmith]

Why do you think Labor and the Greens behave like this? (Perhaps this has been stated before but this is a long thread and I haven’t been able to read every post).

Could they be following the example of Swedish leftists?

In Sweden the left is being criticized for being self-serving when it comes to immigration policy. The charge is that by flooding the country with immigrants and showering them with the social benefits of their welfare state they are able to expand their constituencies at the expense of anti-immigration parties and thereby maintain a stranglehold on power.

It has been raised before in this now very long thread.

Labor I'd suggest is a combination of misguided social policy, political opportunism and increasing their voter base which was ultimately compounded by appeasing the Greens during the Gillard years. The latter is where the numbers really exploded.

The Greens ultimately don't value sovereign nationhood and value social equality through that prism. Accidents and tragedies (as SHY described the drownings) along the way are an acceptable part of achieving their broader social agenda. Ultimately, they hoped that the boat arrival problem would become so unpalatable and so difficult to stop that we would just fly them in.

The UNHCR are a bit like the Greens in that regard and see the cost of illegal people smuggling operations as an acceptable price to pay in the goal of advancing global social equality.

 

[Bintang]

It has been raised before in this now very long thread.

Labor I'd suggest is a combination of misguided social policy, political opportunism and increasing their voter base which was ultimately compounded by appeasing the Greens during the Gillard years. The latter is where the numbers really exploded.

The Greens ultimately don't value sovereign nationhood and value social equality through that prism. Accidents and tragedies (as SHY described the drownings) along the way are an acceptable part of achieving their broader social agenda. Ultimately, they hoped that the boat arrival problem would become so unpalatable and so difficult to stop that we would just fly them in.

The UNHCR are a bit like the Greens in that regard and see the cost of illegal people smuggling operations as an acceptable price to pay in the goal of advancing global social equality.

Thanks. It is a pity that as threads like this continue to expand the most interesting content gets swallowed up in the noise.