I learned this when i worked in the mailing industry and saw how much those well known 'charities' (and we all know who they are) spent on mailing and promotion - millions. Not to mention the wages of all concerned. It really did disgust me, and in a way i felt like those thin malnutrioned people we see on TV were used as tools so we (fat westerners) could exploit even more from them.
Are traders a waste of space?
- Thread starter schnootle
- Start date
I learned this when i worked in the mailing industry and saw how much those well known 'charities' (and we all know who they are) spent on mailing and promotion - millions. Not to mention the wages of all concerned. It really did disgust me, and in a way i felt like those thin malnutrioned people we see on TV were used as tools so we (fat westerners) could exploit even more from them.
Do you know how many of those are miserable? They're the real slaves, chasing dreams manufactured by others in order to 'achieve'... What is real achievement anyway?
My wife was giving $5.00 each month to the save the bears lot, we was getting about $10.00 each month in junk mail from them, they get nothing now.
It just annoyed me. When i finished working at that place and used to receive the same from WHSPA (still donate to WHSPA), it just reinforced what a farce those charities are, and how much the company i worked for (and others like it) used to benefit from those so-called charities.
Having said that though, a distinction needs to be made in relation to sole or unincorporated trading, vs. trading FOR an entity, such as Tibra. Tibra, as an entity, doesn't really offer much in terms of value, to society, except that it employs people.
Now, if those employees of Tibra can go off and adopt some of the attitudes displayed here, then i could see how they'd be of more value to society.
The main benefit of trading is liquidity - a company like Tibra will run hug books and provide an enormous amount of liquidity. Therefore Tibra's traders would provide more benefit to society working there than they would trading smaller amounts at home
It depends on how you define "benefits to society". A whole lotta young guns trading with somebody else's money may end up in > cash for Tibra, but how much 'real' benefit to society do each of those young guns individually offer to society if their own moral values aren't in place?
Having a deep order book isn't as much about liquidity as it is about moving the market. But, if Tibra wants to contribute to market liquidity, then i'm all for it
Having a deep order book isn't as much about liquidity as it is about moving the market. But, if Tibra wants to contribute to market liquidity, then i'm all for it
Wysiwyg
Everyone wants money
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The securities industry is where money gets shuffled around at crazy speeds and in vast amounts which offers a perfect breeding ground for exploitation. I have no hard evidence but there are businesses that start up with investment/trader capital solely to ride a sector trend with no (real) intention of achieving stated goals while having the added bonus of investor/trader paid remuneration.
For most it isn't about the business but how much money can I get from one point in time to another.
It's all about the churn.
For most it isn't about the business but how much money can I get from one point in time to another.
It's all about the churn.
Interesting thread. Tibra is an interesting business. From what I've read they trade on their own account, not with other peoples' money.
The way Tibra work and the fundamental equality of all participants in the market is I think a bit of a concern. Tibra make their money by arbitrage in the market using real-time micro-second trading. How is any other participant in the market going to compete ? Well, first off you have to stump up $100K+ to become a member of the ASX, then you have stump up another $200K+ to have your server with your real-time trading software located in the ASX premises, plus all the monthly ongoing charges the ASX levy for the privilege. Pretty hard for Joe Punter trading at home to be on an equal footing.
Whilst the likes of Tibra may benefit the market, the massive amounts of money they make don't come out of thin air - it comes from super funds, small traders etc bidding higher or selling lower than they might have had they had the same access to the market information Tibra have by virtue of their faster access to market information. (IMHO, anyway !)
The way Tibra work and the fundamental equality of all participants in the market is I think a bit of a concern. Tibra make their money by arbitrage in the market using real-time micro-second trading. How is any other participant in the market going to compete ? Well, first off you have to stump up $100K+ to become a member of the ASX, then you have stump up another $200K+ to have your server with your real-time trading software located in the ASX premises, plus all the monthly ongoing charges the ASX levy for the privilege. Pretty hard for Joe Punter trading at home to be on an equal footing.
Whilst the likes of Tibra may benefit the market, the massive amounts of money they make don't come out of thin air - it comes from super funds, small traders etc bidding higher or selling lower than they might have had they had the same access to the market information Tibra have by virtue of their faster access to market information. (IMHO, anyway !)
Tibra is hardly a competitor to most participants. Everyone is playing a different game, feeding and being fed on in return. From the little I've heard about Tibra, it seems that to most they are just a mosquito bite.
" it seems that to most they are just a mosquito bite."
Thats being generous.
There are 1000's of these shops with Algo's set at milli seconds.
How do you stand a chance?
Well their time frame differs to yours.
They have limits on the positions they take just like you do.
Dont fear these robots.
They get it wrong like all of us.
I have seen many of these systematic models blow up.
Thats being generous.
There are 1000's of these shops with Algo's set at milli seconds.
How do you stand a chance?
Well their time frame differs to yours.
They have limits on the positions they take just like you do.
Dont fear these robots.
They get it wrong like all of us.
I have seen many of these systematic models blow up.
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Stop buying their products/services and they'll go away
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It is part of the food chain.
Just like in the back of the good old days of the "Locals" (sclapers) on the Sydney Futures Exchange floor.
Without them there would not be much liquidity. A point here & there, they are out & happy - high frequency traders - "snail mail" mode ...haha
Compare with the computer driven now.
Then there are the day traders, swing traders, position traders, etc. etc....feeding on each other down the chain line.
Just like in the back of the good old days of the "Locals" (sclapers) on the Sydney Futures Exchange floor.
Without them there would not be much liquidity. A point here & there, they are out & happy - high frequency traders - "snail mail" mode ...haha
Compare with the computer driven now.
Then there are the day traders, swing traders, position traders, etc. etc....feeding on each other down the chain line.
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to correct all the wrong ideas/biases in this thread would be to give away an edge.... so why bother...?
nulla nulla
Positive Expectancy
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It would be interesting to know how Tibra reacted/coped when the market went feral and dropped 3% on Friday 27/11/09.
Did they have open long positions when the market was down 150 points shortly after opening or are all their position initiated afresh each day?
Did they have open long positions when the market was down 150 points shortly after opening or are all their position initiated afresh each day?
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They are delta neutral. A day like friday with decent trading volume would be good for them. I'd imagine people dumping stock/oppies at market would have created a few lucrative arb opportunities for them with oppies.
