And we are off - Aboriginal leaders say $1 billion 'not sorry enough'

[coolcricket]

Okay then, 5th, lol.

 

[Rafa]

Okay then, 5th, lol.

 

[IFocus]

Get a few more Ernie Dingos, Noel Pearsons and tell them to fix it themselves by joining the rest of us in the 21st century.

Nioka that would be great but in my own experience when it comes to the crunch they are seen as whites just like us unfortunately I don’t think any one knows how to achieve your outcome where you take an indigenous culture and integrate it I think its impossible and money wont help

Focus

 

[disarray]

OK see your point but what’s the answer to the current situation with aboriginals?

obviously no quick fix but it is currently mired in apologism, hand wringing, political correctness and other lefty socialist ideals which hamstring attempts to resolve the issue. if i were king of the world i would -

1. admit aborigines are different. maths, english and science isn't their thing, they are intellectually less developed than whites and asians in these areas which instantly puts them at a disadvantage in the education system. i think everyone agrees education is the most important avenue out for any people stuck in a rut.

2. testing indicates aborigines have amazing visual acuity, perception and visual based memory, so they need tailored education which takes advantage of these strengths and leads into more relevant career paths. land management, cultural studies of art, language and dance, native biology, sports and subjects that they feel are relevant to them should be taught as primary subjects.

3. remote communities go to hell because there is nothing to do, if the youth are engaged in learning their culture, the land and animals, playing sport etc. it re-establishes a link to the land which is central to their traditional lifestyle and offers an alternative to getting high on petrol and raping the nearest female.

4. maintain the intervention for as long as necessary to create stable communities where youth can learn these things without older people screwing everything up. get a generation or 2 through a stable, relevant education system and they can begin to maintain their own communities.

obviously its fraught with problems and issues, but at the crux of it all is finally putting to bed this ridiculous notion that all people are equal. we aren't all equal, we have different strengths and weaknesses, but as the dominant culture we are doing ourselves and others a great disservice by sticking absolutely everyone into the box that was tailored for us.

i should point out that tailored policy is for aborigines only so every minority group doesn't come along and start moaning about how they want special treatment. i feel we should go that extra mile to give the aborigines a hand up, but as for everyone else, accept the system (and change it within the reasonable boundaries) or piss off.

also sorry for coming on harsh trade_it, i do respect your opinion and your advice on some of the threads you have posted on, it has been much appreciated

 

[numbercruncher]

Nioka that would be great but in my own experience when it comes to the crunch they are seen as whites just like us unfortunately I don’t think any one knows how to achieve your outcome where you take an indigenous culture and integrate it I think its impossible and money wont help

Focus

Exactly, Just look at how that muppet Mundine has chastised that Aussie legend Freeman.

 

[chops_a_must]

Leaving aside the question of compensation for a moment, I'd like to ask those who feel the Aborigines are in the dysfunctional state they are because of white people what remedy you feel would be appropriate?
Is the payment of multiple millions suddenly going to stop violence and sexual abuse?

Not sure if this is directed at someone like me, but I'll answer it anyway.

I think they are only in the state they are in, partly because of whites. Obviously it varies from place to place, but I'd say areas like the WA wheatbelt are beyond repair because of the extensive reserve and mission system that was in place until the 70s. So yeah, anyone here voting before that time really is responsible for that sort of mistreatment. The destruction of the link between people and land inevitably leads to a position where there is no coming back.

And no, I think with the way aboriginal culture works, any sort of monetary payment will lead to even more massive problems IMO. You only have to look at what has happened to Jeff Farmer and Ashley Sampi here to see what goes on when money is involved.

Next question: it's clear that the sexual abuse of children is widespread in the communities. You are emphatically against the removal of children apparently, so are you in these circumstances condoning the leaving of these abused children (and those with the potential to be abused) with the offending communities rather than removing them (?stealing them) so they may be placed into white foster care?

I'm not against removal of any children with justified cause.

These are my concerns. I don't care about the money one way or the other.
If it were to turn a dysfunctional people into human beings who genuinely wanted to uphold whatever valuable traditions may be left of their culture,
protect their women and children, and actually consider that making a contribution to our society in general might be more rewarding than living in the past, then I'm all for it.

It's not just about making a contribution to society as a whole, they need to understand it's about making a contribution to their own society. I have a couple of farmers as clients who come and see me every so often. And they, and their neighbours, through generation of care, painstaking recording and documentation, know the local dialect very well. But, the locals no longer know it, don't speak it correctly, adopt the English pronunciation and refuse to relearn the actual proper way of speaking in their actual tongue. It's this sort of rubbish that needs to change, but if they have no real elders, it aint going to happen.

But there are areas in the Kimberley that I know of that have had incredible results with maintaining culture, and their links to the land. The problem is, finding elders of communities that are prepared to help in real ways. Unfortunately, they appear to be few and far between.

if i were king of the world i would -

1. admit aborigines are different. maths, english and science isn't their thing, they are intellectually less developed than whites and asians in these areas which instantly puts them at a disadvantage in the education system. i think everyone agrees education is the most important avenue out for any people stuck in a rut.

2. testing indicates aborigines have amazing visual acuity, perception and visual based memory, so they need tailored education which takes advantage of these strengths and leads into more relevant career paths. land management, cultural studies of art, language and dance, native biology, sports and subjects that they feel are relevant to them should be taught as primary subjects.

3. remote communities go to hell because there is nothing to do, if the youth are engaged in learning their culture, the land and animals, playing sport etc. it re-establishes a link to the land which is central to their traditional lifestyle and offers an alternative to getting high on petrol and raping the nearest female.

Great points. You try bringing up aboriginal crime statistics in a sociology tute and see how long you last. It's crazy. Recognition of facts on all sides is a first step.

Clontarf would probably be a prime example of a program based on the points above. Keep them in school, being educated, under the guise and lure of something else. In 10-15 years time, these kids will see the enormous benefits. You just have to get a foothold. I've spoken about learning their culture briefly in the above. It's difficult to get people to learn something they don't want to.

 

[ithatheekret]

Me four...

Western society, (and Christian principles play a major role here) has done a few things wrong, but they have done a hell of a lot of things right...

And whilst there is room for improvement and acknowledgement of mistakes, there is nothing to apologise for. For those who have a blatant disdain for their own culture/religion of their ancestors, you really need to be be wary of what you wish for.... the alternatives ain't as pretty and idealistic as they are made out to be...

The simple life would have to be Australia in the 60's, 70's... now things are slightly less simple (thanks to peak oil), but no where near as difficult as the times when you were a slave to your ruler (and lets face it, most of us on this forum, ain't from any ruling class), had to fight fellow tribemens for food, etc, etc...

heck, we don't even have to capture and kill our animals, or know how to grow own crops, to eat... just need to go work, or surf the web and trade the asx.... how simple is that!!!

They provide a resource that is needed in our landscape , trackers , a dying breed . Watched one at work once , I was impressed and that's an understatement , because we were in an area where it was solid rock and old river pebbles , buggared if I know how he did it , but he was turning up pebbles and finding sweat droppings and just pointed and we went . And he found us a water hole the size of a kitchen basin , coming down from a rock face in trickles . Have you ever watched an indig stockman on a quarter horse ?
You'd swear they were born in the saddle .

But when it get's right down to it , they don't want to be assimulated into our culture , to be honest I have had a few blaring remarks that go well beyond racisim , but it was them . Per capita I would admit that , that their behaviour has them at the high end compared to what is thrown at western culture and those within it that cop the flak .

I certainly hope I wasn't being labelled an apologist as per disarays post , whilst I agree with points clearly stated , there is an alternate retort there.

I've been dragged back , reluctantly and was quite happy in semi-retirement , but I have a motto on a wooden plaque , " all it takes for evil to prevail , is for a few good men to do nothing " .

I'm a capitalist , I know , but I would like everyone to have the good life I have , but I don't see Utopia on the horizon .
Look at the US military , they're in Iraq , tearing up the place to find nothing .
After the scale of the search conducted for WMDs , one would think they would have at least found the Garden of Eden .

That would have made the oil sham that it was a more desirable achievement and it could have given the world hope back.

 

[nioka]

Links to the land is an overworked excuse. How many white Australians with many generations of "links to the land" have had to give up that link in the last 40 years. Drought has forced off many, through debt. A lot because of progress overtaking them. eg The Snowy mountain graziers. Urban encroachment. The get bigger or get out attitude towards farming. Coal mining in the Hunter.
A lot in my early days lost their land through a succession of death duties.
I lost a lot of the land I roamed around as a kid to National parks and Aboriginal land right claims as well as urban development.
Can I have some of that compensation too.
P.S. I left some grafitti, I mean rock art, behind too. And a midden of my left over oyster shells.

 

[macca]

How do we solve it ?

I have had a friend for 40 years, he is on the local land council.

His view is that he does not want his grandchildren and their kids to live like cavemen.

"We need to be part of todays world, it is no good living in the past, whitefellas move on all the time, we have to do that as well "

This land council is teaching the younger aborigines outdoor jobs mainly but also hospitality (mainly female), they seem to avoid the accountancy, clerical type thing but are having success.

They have fully qualified tradesmen coming from their local land council set up, brickies, plumbers, licensed truckies, earth moving equipment drivers, they have one fully licensed builder as the shining light, he is the son of my friend.

I think they are on the right path

They would like to do more but, unfortunately, part of the council don't agree and believe they should just get more money and it all may end, very sad IMO.

 

[numbercruncher]

How do we solve it ?

To start with they can stop calling me Whitefella. I know thats one of the more polite terms they use for non-Indigenous Australians, but treating others how you expect to be treated yourself is always a good starting point.

 

[--B--]

but theyre allowed because theyre the minority.

/sarcasm

 

[chops_a_must]

Links to the land is an overworked excuse. How many white Australians with many generations of "links to the land" have had to give up that link in the last 40 years. Drought has forced off many, through debt. A lot because of progress overtaking them. eg The Snowy mountain graziers. Urban encroachment. The get bigger or get out attitude towards farming. Coal mining in the Hunter.
A lot in my early days lost their land through a succession of death duties.
I lost a lot of the land I roamed around as a kid to National parks and Aboriginal land right claims as well as urban development.
Can I have some of that compensation too.
P.S. I left some grafitti, I mean rock art, behind too. And a midden of my left over oyster shells.

And you still have farmers who haven't had a crop in nearly 10 years "living off the land". It doesn't matter what group of people it is, some humans are very reluctant to move from where they have grown up/ lived all of their lives. You have people in Michigan living there, even though it is totally dead. Same goes with South Australia and Tasmania. Living in a place that has nothing going for it, seems to appeal to humans on the whole, moreso than taking a chance and moving somewhere else. It's just not that easy or simple if all of your friends, family and support are in that one place.

 

[2020hindsight]

can someone remind me please
a) when did the Abs get the vote, and
b) did any fight in our Army before that date. ?

 

[2020hindsight]

can someone remind me please
a) when did the Abs get the vote, and
b) did any fight in our Army before that date. ?

http://www.cityofsydney.nsw.gov.au/barani/themes/theme3.htm

voting .... try 1962 (except in State elections)

..when compulsory voting was introduced in NSW in 1929, Aboriginal people were still excluded from voting under the Commonwealth Electoral Act 1918. In 1962, the Federal Government gave Aborigines the optional right to vote. State laws, however, still classified "natives" as "wards of the state" and as such they were denied the right to vote in State elections.

Census ( even being counted as Australians) .. try 1967

When the six Australian colonies became a Federation in 1901, white Australia believed that the Aborigines were a dying race and the Constitution made only two references to them. Section 127 excluded Aborigines from the census (although heads of cattle were counted) and Section 51 (Part 26) gave power over Aborigines to the States rather than to the Federal Government. This was the situation until the referendum of 1967 when an overwhelming majority of Australians voted to include Aborigines in the census of their own country

war and stolen generation -
some children were taken from mothers whilst the fathers were overseas serving in the armed forces

The NSW Aborigines Welfare Board controlled Aboriginal lives until the 1960s, pursuing policies that are now acknowledged as having contributed to the destruction of Aboriginal families and society by separating children from their parents. These children became known as ‘the stolen generations’ and are still searching for their families. They now number between 15,000 and 20,000 in NSW alone. During the First World War, some four to five hundred Aboriginal people enlisted in the armed forces. During this time, the State government continued to remove Aboriginal children from their families, including youngsters whose fathers were serving overseas.

lovely isn't it..
really something to be proud of..

next questions..
c) how would any of you blokes / ladies like it if your kids were taken forcibly from you?
d) would you feel that you were entitled to an apology at least?

PS This extract from the Australian Constitution 1900 shows Section 127 before it was repealed in 1967 :-

 

[BBand]

If we gave them an apology and the money -----------

Then what ? (can be expected in the future)

 

[2020hindsight]

If we gave them an apology and the money -----------

Then what ? (can be expected in the future)

Justice might have been done - at least in part.
The Abs and those Aussies with a conscience (and/or empathy) might move on with some healing accomplished...

of course the rednecks will be bleating, but hopefully they are in the minority.

 

[justjohn]

Why don't we have a national I'm sorry day ,where we open our windows and shout as loud as we can ''IM &^%$^#@$% SORRY:fu::cussing:

 

[coolcricket]

Why don't we have a national I'm sorry day ,where we open our windows and shout as loud as we can ''IM &^%$^#@$% SORRY:fu::cussing:

I like it, I would be up for that.
They would still want money to buy alcohol though.

 

[2020hindsight]

Why don't we have a national I'm sorry day ,where we open our windows and shout as loud as we can ''IM &^%$^#@$% SORRY:fu::cussing:

but jj, I notice you decline to answer the questions c) and d)
how would you feel if your kids were taken from you?

Paul Keating - The Redfern Address - Australian Labor Party

 

[2020hindsight]

And no doubt you'd happily yell at this blokes headstone ....

''IM &^%$^#@$% SORRY

that your kid was stolen from you whilst you were on active service saving the likes of jj