Al Qaeda

Sean K · 15 June 2006

Visual, Your argument why cannibalism is wrong isn't a very good one IMO. Whey does God say it's bad? What is the reason?

Have you read the book, or seen the movie 'Survival', about the Uruguan soccer team that crash in the Andes and no one finds them for yonks. They resort to eating one of their dead mates to survive. Are they going to hell? Or, did they just do what was necessary to live? To survive? It always depends on the circumstances whether you follow Gods laws. For eg, the 'Do not kill' one is fine on the surface, but what about in pure self defence? Or when we go to justified war against Nazi Germany? It always depends doesn't it. We just can't take the laws loch, stock and barrel. So, why have them based on flimsy pretexts like 'because I told you so?' Let's make up some better ones built on logic.

visual · 15 June 2006

Kennas,
when I mentioned cannibalism it was in reference to a way of living,plenty of cultures practiced cannibalism as a way of life.And now they dont.
Your points are all relevant but on what basis do you think in normal everyday life people would think it was wrong,and we go back to religion and what has been taught to us.I certainly am not going to get into a debate about the meaning of the bible,as I said havent read it and not likely to either.But would you think that killing people for food was wrong without the influence of religion,religion as we know it today which obviously has been passed down the generations.

bullmarket · 15 June 2006

Hi kennas

kennas said:
Hi Bull,

Yep, I remember your Adam and Eve comment and this is a convenient way for Christains to explain all the pain and suffering in the world. It is further reason for us to be 'good' so that we get to heaven. It's not a true story though Bull, it's just a metaphor to explain what happens if we do bad things. I believe, and I think there are some Christain Apologists out there who also believe, that many of the stories were never supposed to be taken literally, they are there as little bed time stories to make sure we don't go out and covert thy neighbours wife. The problem has arisen however: just which of these cute stories are actually true and which are, well, cute little stories.

Now, as for my back: I have a sneaking suspicion that it is stuffed because God doesn't like me. Several years ago a cousin of mine, who is a born again minister in the Potters House church, sat me down and tried to 'heal' me. He went on and on about JC 'healing this back, this back that has been sore,' yada yada yada. Well, the very next week I had to be stretchered off to an ambulance and was in hospital for a week. One week after being healed! He's got it in for me, that nasty Yahweh! I'm sure if I truly believed I'd be fixed though, right?

I believe the 'concept' of the Adam and Eve story is true.......now whether the 'apple test' happened exactly as described in the Bible I do not know....but I do believe that some sort of test was placed on 'someone' and they failed it and so I believe the consequences of that failure are as I described earlier.

I suppose that's why they call it 'faith'......ie...believing something that cannot be physically proved one way or the other.....and so I suppose we all make our choices on what we choose to believe.

Regarding your back - in your case I'd suggest finding a good phsiotherapist

cheers

bullmarket

Sean K · 15 June 2006

I actually think killing any animal is wrong unless we absolutely need to do it for our survival. Call me an animal lover, but I don't really like eating anything that had a mother. Except a meat pie at the footy now and then. I think humans were originally designed to eat meat as our teeth are made to tear, but that could be for bark. Bark's not very tasty though.

Anyway, eating humans isn't on my menu because I like humans alive. They are good fun to talk to, have their own family and friends and can positively contribute to a better world. So, I like them alive, and they like to be alive too. I'm not sure how tasty they'd be anyway. Too fatty for the most part these days.

I think the fact we have emotions and can sympathise means we wouldn't like putting humans on the menu. Back to the 'do unto others' principle. I wouldn't like to be served up as someones entree so best I don't eat you.

Of course, you are right, we have done it through history. Not long ago in the highlands of PNG actually. I think the reason though, was that they ate their enemies after they'd killed them in battle as a sign of respect. I could be wrong, they might have just been hungry.

Anything happening on the market today?

visual · 15 June 2006

kennas said:
I actually think killing any animal is wrong unless we absolutely need to do it for our survival. Call me an animal lover, but I don't really like eating anything that had a mother. Except a meat pie at the footy now and then. I think humans were originally designed to eat meat as our teeth are made to tear, but that could be for bark. Bark's not very tasty though.

Anyway, eating humans isn't on my menu because I like humans alive. They are good fun to talk to, have their own family and friends and can positively contribute to a better world. So, I like them alive, and they like to be alive too. I'm not sure how tasty they'd be anyway. Too fatty for the most part these days.

I think the fact we have emotions and can sympathise means we wouldn't like putting humans on the menu. Back to the 'do unto others' principle. I wouldn't like to be served up as someones entree so best I don't eat you.

Of course, you are right, we have done it through history. Not long ago in the highlands of PNG actually. I think the reason though, was that they ate their enemies after they'd killed them in battle as a sign of respect. I could be wrong, they might have just been hungry.

Anything happening on the market today?

Do unto others
based on religion.
(how would you know it wasnt how you wanted to be treated if you hadnt been taught that it was wrong)
about the PNG,only a short time ago sixty minutes featured the story of a six year old destined for the table because somehow he was being blamed for the death of two people.

And in India people are being killed because they are being accused of witchcraft,not cannibalism but I did say ect.

Sean K · 15 June 2006

Yeah Visual, the 'do unto others' thing is in the bible, but I don't accept it just because of that. I think it's a solid principle that we can base our actions on to create a better world and be better people. Not to get to heaven. There are many good ideas in all the books of religion and Buddhism and Taoism. I don't accept them all, just the ones I can apply to my life here in sunny Melbourne.

I would like to add a commandment. 'Thau shall go to the MCG for a Boxing Day test at least once in your life.' Perhaps the Muslims could do this one instead of the Hajj too. Mecca is just too far away.

Rafa · 15 June 2006

visual said:
Do unto others
based on religion.
(how would you know it wasnt how you wanted to be treated if you hadnt been taught that it was wrong)

I think Visual has nailed it... Yes, Julia and Kennas, do unto others, etc... its the way to live... and it is based on a religion...

kennas said:
Julia, I think you are so close to the method by which we can all live in harmony and it is one of the commandments. 'Do unto others as you would have them do to you.' If we all followed that, then there'd be much more peace in the world. I think there is more though, but this could be the foundation.

But Julia, you did not invent that methodology... History will record that it was invented many years ago, by the founder of a religion... Infact its one of the principle requirements of a follower of this particular religion/s, and claiming it as something you have just thought up out of the blue... is well, breach of copyright... (ooops, just did a Legal Studies course... )...

That teaching, that philosophy has been passed down by your ancestors... and you have inherited those set of morals... whether you like it or not, someone has taught you those morals... or you have read a book written by someone else who morals have been gained by that teaching... (i hope i am explaining this well enough...)

All i am saying is, while many of us discount the value of religion, esp christianity, many of us follow a lot of the principles of a religion, and hence to say if christinanity was never invented, we would have been better off, is to discount the very reason for your own set of morals... and to discount the very reason we are able to enjoy our present way of life... which, for the most part, is rather peacefull, loving, compassionate, kind and generous...

Ageo · 15 June 2006

kennas said:
I actually think killing any animal is wrong unless we absolutely need to do it for our survival. Call me an animal lover, but I don't really like eating anything that had a mother. Except a meat pie at the footy now and then. I think humans were originally designed to eat meat as our teeth are made to tear, but that could be for bark. Bark's not very tasty though.

Hehe i hunt regular and enjoy it very much. Too me i love animals and respect them but i also know that they are a major food source. The wild meat that i aquire is 10x better than the processed crap you get from the shops.

each to his own i reckon

professor_frink · 15 June 2006

Rafa said:
But Julia, you did not invent that methodology... History will record that it was invented many years ago, by the founder of a religion... Infact its one of the principle requirements of a follower of this particular religion/s, and claiming it as something you have just thought up out of the blue... is well, breach of copyright... (ooops, just did a Legal Studies course... )...

That teaching, that philosophy has been passed down by your ancestors... and you have inherited those set of morals... whether you like it or not, someone has taught you those morals... or you have read a book written by someone else who morals have been gained by that teaching... (i hope i am explaining this well enough...)

All i am saying is, while many of us discount the value of religion, esp christianity, many of us follow a lot of the principles of a religion, and hence to say if christinanity was never invented, we would have been better off, is to discount the very reason for your own set of morals... and to discount the very reason we are able to enjoy our present way of life... which, for the most part, is rather peacefull, loving, compassionate, kind and generous...

You make some great points rafa. Whether someone agrees with what you've said or not doesn't matter, it's good that a religious person can discuss it calmly with people who aren't religious.
That last paragraph is quite well put- now all we have to do is get some of todays religious leaders to stop quoting biblical passages to justify their stance against things like homosexuality, and start making comments like the one you just did. It would definately boost the credibility of religion with us non-religious folks!

p.s I haven't forgotten about your challenge- after getting up to watch brazil and croatia yesterday morning, and not going to bed until spain v ukraine, I'm struggling to put my analytical hat on today! I'm hearing my bed calling me- "sleep in me frinky, sleep in me!" Hopefully I'll get to looking at it soon.

Rafa · 15 June 2006

How good was Spain eh... Xabi Alonso and Garcia... If only Liverpool had enuf cash to buy Torres...

Ah... what were we talking about... football, religion, ISTANBUL, its all the same...

Ok...

Religion is a very beautiful thing, as long as you look at it in the right point of view... its a philosophy on how to live your life, in harmony with other humans, with nature and with your Creator...

When it comes to the 'divisive' issues of today... Its important to ask one question, What would Jesus do... The answer can be found be reading the Gospels... Yes there is a RIGHT and WRONG, but NO ONE is an OUTCAST, and we must treat others as we would like ourselves to be treated...

The rest of the RULES are made by HUMANS... !!! To me, following them is OPTIONAL! but yes, I still go to Church once a week... to give thanks to GOD for giving me a great life... and that, for me, is the right thing to do...

NOW... do Christians actually follow Christs Teachings... ???
But does that make Christianity and Christ and GOD the villain... NO!!!

so.... Prof, once you've recovered, i await your response to the challenge...

professor_frink · 15 June 2006

Rafa, just came to the conclusion I am religious- football is my religion .
It's a harsh religion that involves me neglecting my girlfriend by staying up all night watching the tv while she sleeps in bed, but it's my religious duty to do such things. Liverpool boys were great, but It's to be expected- look who they play for!! Torres was a target for them, but is a little pricey! kuyt is also still on the list, but is a little too expensive. Where is our russian billionare? Stupid chelsea.

What day is it? Don't even know at the moment . I should have time and energy on the weekend for a thorough reading of the gospels. Until then my religious football following friend.........

Prospector · 15 June 2006

bullmarket said:
Hi kennas

re:

The way I think about this is that the world we are in (with both its good and bad/evil features) is a consequence of Adam and Eve taking a bite out of that apple as I described in an earlier post and so I wont repeat it here.

Regarding your bad back.....and I'm not saying that this is the case in your particular circumstances, but earlier when confession was discussed it was only half the story. Although sins are forgiven in confession God still requires us to do some sort of punishment for our sins.....ie....a bit like a mother telling one of her children that she forgives them for not cleaning their room when they were told but they will still not be allowed to watch TV for a week as punishment.

Now this punishment could be served in this life, through some sort of hardship...ie....illness, loss of some sort etc etc or in the next life in purgatory before we are fit to enter heaven provided we were not in a state of mortal sin when we leave this world or a combination of both.

bullmarket

Wow, Mr Bull, this is the first time I have read of someone with a Christian perspective actually linking physical difficulties with some kind of holy punishment.

So, babies and children who develop serious illnesses like Leukemia are being punished for what? Or is it maybe their parents?

I totally object to the texts that are read in the Christening service which say that the Christening is needed to purify the sinner (or words to that effect)- we are talking about a 6 week old baby here - what sins did they commit? Babies are born pure! Christianity suggests we are inherently bad without it - I am old enough not to worry about the guilt stuff. Purgatory - well, I don't believe in that either.

Live Julia's creed, do without the guilts and retribution associated with religion and we would start to live together.

On the original topic, I am far more likely to suffer the effects of a mentally ill person that our society has mistreated, than the effects of a terrorist. The terrorist gets more headlines though so we are being treated to the fear campaign from the media. I have always thought you get way more sympathy by being blown up by a terrorist than being knocked over by a drink driver. Funny thing that!

bullmarket · 15 June 2006

Hi mrs prospector

Prospector said:
.............So, babies and children who develop serious illnesses like Leukemia are being punished for what? Or is it maybe their parents?

I totally object to the texts that are read in the Christening service which say that the Christening is needed to purify the sinner (or words to that effect)- we are talking about a 6 week old baby here - what sins did they commit? Babies are born pure! Christianity suggests we are inherently bad without it - I am old enough not to worry about the guilt stuff. Purgatory - well, I don't believe in that either......................

Let me clarify a couple of things you have clearly misunderstood.

1) In my earlier post I said

Now this punishment could be served in this life, through some sort of hardship...ie....illness, loss of some sort etc etc or in the next life in purgatory before we are fit to enter heaven provided we were not in a state of mortal sin when we leave this world or a combination of both.

which undeniably states that the punishment for our sins could be served in this life OR in the next life and in no way suggests that every illness suffered by anyone is some sort of 'Holy punishment'

Of course a 6 week old baby, as per your example, is not capable of sinning and so any illness he/she unfortunately suffers is not a punishment.

2) Christening/Baptism is much more than just 'purifying' the person being christened.....if you google using something like baptism, christening etc etc I'm sure you'll find plenty more info on the meaning and purpose of Baptism and Christenings if interested so I'm not going to go into it here.

But to clarify a misconception you have about babies being born pure, in at least the Catholic religion everyone is born with 'Original Sin' (again you can google it for more info if interested) which is the sin that Adam and Eve commited when they ate that infamous apple. Baptism removes the Original Sin.

I hope this clarifies a few things for you

cheers

bullmarket

Prospector · 15 June 2006

bullmarket said:
But to clarify a misconception you have about babies being born pure, in at least the Catholic religion everyone is born with 'Original Sin' (again you can google it for more info if interested) which is the sin that Adam and Eve commited when they ate that infamous apple. Baptism removes the Original Sin.

OK, Mr B, I have quickly read this thread because it is a bit long and have probably skipped on a few things :

Doesnt it worry you, just a tad, that the Church labels something as natural as the birth of a baby, as also having the Original sin? Seriously, do you actually believe in that? I just cant get my head around the concept.

Were Adam and Eve born with the original sin, or did they just create the mess for everyone else! Was it the eating of the apple that did it or is that just the metaphor for sex. If the latter then who created Adam and Eve. I am not trying to be a smarty, I just cant get it!

Actually I googled this and came up with: Sexy Angelina Jolie turns on the heat as a mysterious woman whose insatiable lust for her new husband (Antonio Banderas) is exceeded only by her desire for ...

bullmarket · 15 June 2006

Hi again Mrs P

no, Adam and Eve were not born with original sin but them succumbing to temptation and eating 'that apple' was the first sin ever committed and I suppose hence the name 'original sin'.

if you are interested, I describe in an earlier post my understanding and beliefs of the consequences for mankind after Adam and Eve took that fateful bite.

cheers

bullmarket

Julia · 15 June 2006

Rafa said:
I think Visual has nailed it... Yes, Julia and Kennas, do unto others, etc... its the way to live... and it is based on a religion...

But Julia, you did not invent that methodology... History will record that it was invented many years ago, by the founder of a religion... Infact its one of the principle requirements of a follower of this particular religion/s, and claiming it as something you have just thought up out of the blue... is well, breach of copyright... (ooops, just did a Legal Studies course... )...

That teaching, that philosophy has been passed down by your ancestors... and you have inherited those set of morals... whether you like it or not, someone has taught you those morals... or you have read a book written by someone else who morals have been gained by that teaching... (i hope i am explaining this well enough...)

All i am saying is, while many of us discount the value of religion, esp christianity, many of us follow a lot of the principles of a religion, and hence to say if christinanity was never invented, we would have been better off, is to discount the very reason for your own set of morals... and to discount the very reason we are able to enjoy our present way of life... which, for the most part, is rather peacefull, loving, compassionate, kind and generous...

Rafa

Of course I didn't invent it. However, I think I can see what you are getting at, and it's a reasonable suggestion.

I am actually agnostic - I have no idea if there is a God or not. I have complete respect for anyone who says "I believe in God. I cannot explain it and I cannot prove it. That is the nature of faith". Fine. That's a personal belief.

I'd genuinely like to know more about what having this sort of faith means in people's lives and if anyone feels like sharing that, then I'd be grateful.
e.g. is it because it gives your life a sense of structure? A sense of not having to make some decisions because God has a plan for you which you cannot alter? A sense of comfort when things are tough that you have some sort of spiritual father figure? Anything else?

What I do dislike intensely is organised, dogmatic extreme religion of all varieties. Don't care whether it's Christianity, Islam or anything else.
This inevitably involves zealots who are intent on converting everyone else to their way of thinking and will go to all sorts of lengths to achieve that end.

I'm happy for everyone to believe whatever they want and to privately practice what makes them feel good. But, just like our taste in food, fashion or sexual preference, we shouldn't try to force it onto others or condemn them because they don't share our convictions.

The last paragraph is just a general statement - not a suggestion that anyone on this thread was trying to force their beliefs on to others.

Julia

Sean K · 15 June 2006

Rafa in regards to your quote:

"The rest of the RULES are made by HUMANS... !!! To me, following them is OPTIONAL! but yes, I still go to Church once a week... to give thanks to GOD for giving me a great life... and that, for me, is the right thing to do.."

Are you saying that you don't follow the law of the day, just what's in the Good Book? Isn't that like Sharia and what the Muslim extremists are wanting to do. Surely not. Maybe you mean just some of the things in the bible are what Jesus intended, and some of it is just what the authors and editors thought.

And, I don't give thanks to God for anything. My thanks are to my parents, my family, friends and aquaintences who make this life what it is. I don't believe that anyone else is responsible but these humans around me and the natural world. Life is not in the hands of the Gods but in the hands of those around us and in nature. Having that perspective on the world will mean we treat one another and nature in much higher regard and respect and the world will be a better place. IMHO, of course.

Defering to God to solve all of our problems or blaming him for world events is a bit of a cop out isn't it?

He does work in mysterious ways though I suppose. I really liked how he saved the two miners down in Tassie but killed the other one. How remarkable was it to see the town folk all at church looking up to the heavens thanking the Lord for saving the two blokes. But, I'm sure the guy who died must have deserved it because he had sinned, or he had in a past life!

The Mint Man · 15 June 2006

BM, Rafa, anyone else that would care to answer.
Question, If a baby dies at birth (obviously not baptised) where do they go?

What I do dislike intensely is organised, dogmatic extreme religion of all varieties. Don't care whether it's Christianity, Islam or anything else.
This inevitably involves zealots who are intent on converting everyone else to their way of thinking and will go to all sorts of lengths to achieve that end.

Hear what your saying... I have seen many people go to church only to be scared away by people such as this, I even feel I could possibly be one of those scared off people. It really does leave you wondering..... Definitly makes you look at all religous people in a bad way!! constantly wondering what their agenda is.
Is that fair??? probably not BUT its a Bit the same as us having to pay for 'someone elses sins' isnt it?

bullmarket · 15 June 2006

hi kenna

re:

He does work in mysterious ways though I suppose. I really liked how he saved the two miners down in Tassie but killed the other one.

It's a fact that we all will be leaving this world one day and so with the above I suppose you can ask Him when you meet Him :

I suppose what you are asking is the same as asking why in a car collision do sometimes some survive and some die.

cheers

bullmarket

bullmarket · 15 June 2006

Hi MM

if a baby dies before it has had an opportunity to be baptised then my understanding is that it will go to heaven.

In earlier posts I said that baptism is much more than just the removal of the 'original sin' that we are all born with....there is truck loads of info on baptism and it's meaning and purpose on the www if you google it so I won't go into it here.

cheers

bullmarket

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