Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

ABS - ABC Learning Centres

A bunch of thugs in ABC Learning.

I wonder this organisation is looking after our kids giving child care. Probably they will sell drugs to the kids to fetch money. The incompetent ASIC to take any action. Incompetent ASX to publish the directors selling report after the trading halt with no purpose to the poor investors.
People who lost money are being called greedy. Who is not in this category. We all are when look for bargain. All speculative stocks are gambling so is lotto buy.


Here is the ABC News report

Groves, wife sold 19 million ABC shares
By business editor Peter Ryan and Tanya Nolan
Posted 3 hours 36 minutes ago (27 February 08 5.44 pm WST)
Updated 1 hour 35 minutes ago


Yesterday Mr Groves refused to comment on whether he was under pressure to sell his shares. (AAP: Dave Hunt)

Video: Groves reassures ABC Learning investors (ABC News) Audio: ABC Learning suspends trading (The World Today) Audio: Business editor Peter Ryan discusses ABC Learning (The World Today) It has emerged that the founder of the childcare provider ABC Learning Centres, Eddy Groves, sold shares in the company during yesterday's share price plunge.

Mr Groves and his wife Le Neve sold 19 million of their shares yesterday.

After intense pressure over the past 24 hours, Mr Groves revealed this afternoon that he sold more than 8 million shares yesterday at $1.85 per share.

According to statements issued to the sharemarket this morning, non-executive director David Ryan sold his entire holding of more than 249,000 shares at $1.89 a share yesterday.

It has also been disclosed that the company's chief executive of operations, Martin Kemp, sold 7.6 million shares or 70 per cent of his stake in ABC Learning.

Mr Kemp's selling began last Friday, and concluded yesterday when ABC Learning shares plunged as much as 70 per cent.

Mr Kemp off-loaded his stake for between $3.73 and $1.66 per share.

The statements did not disclose the reason for the selling amid speculation that some directors had been hit with margin calls because of ABC Learning's debt exposure.

ABC Learning shares closed yesterday at $2.14 after plunging to $1.15 down or by around 70 per cent.

The disclosure from Mr Groves was in response to a "please explain" query from the Australian Securities Exchange in relation to yesterday's heavy falls.

The market regulator has confirmed it is investigating trading in ABC Learning shares as a "live supervisory matter."

The Federal Government is also keeping a watch on ABC Learning.

Families Minister Jenny Macklin says childcare places should be maintained and working parents must be protected from the company's troubles.

"We have a very, very tight labour market and if [parents] can't find the childcare we're not going to be able to address the participation issues that are so critical to the economy," she said.

"So we are aware of it, we're obviously talking about it internally."

Yesterday, Mr Groves refused to comment on whether he was under pressure to sell his shares apart from confirming that he was required to announce any buying or selling of stock within 48 hours.

In other developments today, ABC Learning disclosed it had received expressions of interest in part of its business and expected discussions could take longer than two trading days.

The company, which has 2,300 childcare centres around the world, requested and received a two-day trading halt while the talks were underway.

The company's shares were yesterday dumped by investors after announcing a sharp fall in profit after the close of trade on Monday.


Concerned childcare sector

Meanwhile, Child Care NSW which represents private childcare operators says even if the worst case scenario eventuates, there will be nothing for parents to worry about.

Executive officer Bruce Manefield, has told ABC Radio's The World Today families should not worry that centres will close.

"In the very hypothetical situation that for some reason or other ABC got into some substantial trouble, and I say that's highly hypothetical, in most instances like that if you look at other general cases most companies continue to trade under the directorship of a receiver," he said.

Mr Manefield says talk of a shortage of child care places in Australia is overstated, particularly in Sydney where he says there are plenty of providers who cannot fill spots in their centres, especially for three to five-year-olds.

He says there should be no change to the 40 per cent of public funding going to ABC Learning Centres, because it is given to parents through the Child Care Benefit and Tax Rebate.

But the not-for-profit childcare sector is warning that a crisis awaits the industry if Australia's biggest childcare operator struggles.

Lynne Wannan, the convener of the National Association of Community Child Care Centres - which represents 1,100 not-for-profit centres - says there is no money to be made in childcare provision.

"When you have to conform with the quality requirements in Australia, our regulations, they're fairly strict and there really isn't a lot of money left over to make millions of dollars or to repay billions of loans which they have," she said.

Ms Wannan says if the centres were to shut their doors, there would be an immediate crisis.

"That would be a monumental crisis," she said.

"We already have hundreds and hundreds of families who can't access a quality children's service. We do have waiting lists in lots and lots of places and if we lost that quantity of our service system, it would be just a disaster for the Australian economy."
 
I use technical indicators, or trends, to determine whether to buy or sell (hence my post 160 addressed to HangSeng where I talk about the charts) so I dont need to know as much about traditional yields/pe's etc, knowledge of business systems, salaries and wages etc. You went into detail about salaries etc - most people here wouldnt even think about such issues before investing.

The only thing affecting the SP is how well the business runs generally - macro versus micro if you wish. Hence my comment that people here wouldnt know if child care workers were underpaid, or what the likely ramifications are for individual child care centres. But I also know this is an assumption so I am happy to be proven wrong.

Macro/micro, indicators, knowledge of a company or rubbing the Buddah doll-- everyone has their own way to ascertain what is going to go up or down. If it works for you, that's great.

To ignore news in the industry of wage issues in child care as well as the issues of cost to families just bamboozles me. It's a vital part of this sector's advancement. Every year, CCC ownwers and parent's take note of how the govt. is going to address subsidised CC fees. If you are looking to invest in CCCs these are valid entities that will affect the over performance.

You don't believe so, Prospector, that is fine. What ever works for you. I'm only bringing interest in of the other things that can/will effect the price.
 
A bunch of thugs in ABC Learning.

I wonder this organisation is looking after our kids giving child care. Probably they will sell drugs to the kids to fetch money. The incompetent ASIC to take any action. Incompetent ASX to publish the directors selling report after teh trading halt with no purpose to the poor investors.
People who lost money are being called greedy. Who is not in this category. We all are when look for bargain. All speculative stocks are gambling so is lotto buy.

Miner
I agree with your comments and I'm sorry if you lost some money to this sucker, but lets get the facts clear......

The ASX does not publish the change in directors interest notice, the Company lodges the announcement. The ASX were not incompetent in this situation, in fact quite the opposite, they were very aggressive in getting detail by issuing a price query. In addition, under ASX listing rules, the directors actually have 5 business days to lodge the change in directors interest. Therefore, the ASX did not have a responsibility to enforce ABC Learning directors to lodge the notices.

In relation to the directors who sold as a consequence of margin calls, this is the way the cookie crumbles, if the takeover is indeed valid they have lost a lot of money due to their own leverage. My personal thought is that we will rapidly see amendments to disclosure to directors interest notice to incorporate if the director has secured their shares as collateral for any purpose. As for the Mr Kemp who disgustingly sold prior to the announcement of the results and who was clearly in contravention of insider trading law, you can bet that ABC have been served a notice from ASIC for a please explain.... believe me, I have seen them issue please explains for much less...... I hope he gets what he deserves.....

Cheers
 
Is it possible that the director sold prior to the release of the result due to a margin call?

Just being a devil's advocate here. It seems like such a stupid move by the director to sell prior to the release of the company's result.
 
Is it possible that the director sold prior to the release of the result due to a margin call?

Just being a devil's advocate here. It seems like such a stupid move by the director to sell prior to the release of the company's result.
Stupid, or wise?

I definitely don't think it's ethical for director's to sell out before results like this. Sets a bad precedent for other companies and not good for investor confidence.
 
I would say stupid only because there are rules against it. Can't remember what the fines are for what is essentially 'insider trading'. Includes jail time I believe.
 
Major aussies indexes, even past mid last year were in an uptrend for the entire year of 2007, ABS was in a downtrend the entire period ... even the most basic relative strength to an index, would suggest this stock was not a buy using the "trend is your friend" method.

Too many stocks, with similar downtrend patterns, have exhibited such drops, in the last 5+ (and more) years, forget the current reasons, just look at the chart of the stock, it usually tells you what is happening ...

Incredible drop on this stock, margin (or whatever reasons) was perhaps at play, but I have found this being a common problem for many traders, not trading with enough capital so overexposing themselves, and getting hurt.

Basic principles - don't over-expose to one tradeable (I remember reading a Margin Lending article where they mentioned through study on customer accounts, those holding 8 or more stocks were less likely to have a margin call). If one is exposed to a particular tradeable, keep it in check with your overall trading account.

A 50% drop on one stock in a situation like this, when holding 10 stocks, is hopefully closer to a 5% drop to your entire account.

Have enough capital, cut your losses early, and spread the risks to avoid single melt downs to an overall account.
 
There are few articles circulating that predict when the trading halt is lifted "traders" will short the crap out of ABS in the hope fo flush out the rest of the directors shares...

http://business.smh.com.au/eddy-fac...ard-caught-by-margin-calls/20080227-1v5b.html

One thing is for sure, I was very surprised how quickly management have gone to the safetly of a trading halt and communicated to the market they are looking at asset sales or maybe a buy out by potential suitors..

Take CNP case in point, they have been dragging their feet for weeks with little clear guide to the market about their future other than trying to refinance there short term maturing debt.

Yesterday's tanking from the margin calls by directors may be an oversell to say the least....RSI of 18!

So I ask the forum a simple question, with public knowledge known today, is ABS a buy or sell??????

benwex
 
I would guess 'sell' due to the recent bearish sentiments and/or alledged short selling activities by hedge funds.

However, 10 million shares owned by the founder was alledgedly sold to Bain Capital. Price is unknown.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23284317-5013408,00.html

I would expect an increase in SP if a white knight comes along and offers to buyout the company. This is probably not likely to occur within the next few days.
 
I would guess 'sell' due to the recent bearish sentiments and/or alledged short selling activities by hedge funds.

However, 10 million shares owned by the founder was alledgedly sold to Bain Capital. Price is unknown.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23284317-5013408,00.html

I would expect an increase in SP if a white knight comes along and offers to buyout the company. This is probably not likely to occur within the next few days.

Dear Ghostworld

Congratulations !
If I have some disposable ABS or MON shares I woudl have been gifted you off to say thank you ;)

Like Keith Nelson and many good experts you said in both ways. Starting the post with SELL and then said you would expect an increase in SP with a great IF.

Mate, do not blame you. But some one placed to buy $10 M ABS shares at $2.14 at the preopening session on the day of trading halt. At the same time people placed to sell ABS at 85 cents. Commsec site I am referring to.

I do not think any one honestly knows it is buy or sell for ABS. Many pundits will surface in few days once the market retracts itself . BUT now GOK - God only Knows.

Sorry could not dare to predict boldly but if the share price goes lower than $2 then I would be buying it. Since I do not have it so can not SELL any thing :D
 
Basic principles - don't over-expose to one tradeable (I remember reading a Margin Lending article where they mentioned through study on customer accounts, those holding 8 or more stocks were less likely to have a margin call). If one is exposed to a particular tradeable, keep it in check with your overall trading account.

A 50% drop on one stock in a situation like this, when holding 10 stocks, is hopefully closer to a 5% drop to your entire account.

Have enough capital, cut your losses early, and spread the risks to avoid single melt downs to an overall account.

that is the old diversification argument... you hold 10+ stocks, you are not going to make the same returns when things go in your favour...
 
Sorry could not dare to predict boldly but if the share price goes lower than $2 then I would be buying it. Since I do not have it so can not SELL any thing :D[/QUOTE]

Well you can.............

There are many CFD providers who would be happy for you to sell shares that you dont own (yet)

I think the way the market is today with short selling so accessable to retail investors makes me realise how unlevel the playing field has/was in the past.

When ABS is back on the boards it will be gripping viewing thats for sure and I will be trying to get some play.

benwex
 
Is it possible that the director sold prior to the release of the result due to a margin call?

Just being a devil's advocate here. It seems like such a stupid move by the director to sell prior to the release of the company's result.

Hi all, I think this sums it up well:

Even is it was to releive a Margin Call or an anticipated one, why should investors in this company suffer from the poor mismanagement of personal finances by a Director?

It is incompetent by the Directors to let their own personal finances affect the Company, and this is exactly what has happened (and to the detriment of shareholders - class action?).

Its as simple as that, management's personal finances (gearing) has had a negative impact on the Company's viability and finances (and share price).

Consider this scenario - Jo Bloggs investor is facing a Margin Call last Friday. He has lots of shares to chose from in which he can sell, inlcluding ABS. However he does not have an insider position or connection with ABS, and unaware of factors and info due to be released to market the next business day. He weighs up all th info and option available to him and decides to sell off XYZ. How does this put him on equal footing with Mr Kemp as an investor and shareholder of ABS?

In any case, even if it was to get out of a Margin Call, buy a new Mercedes or Pay Off a Bookie for a bad Horse Bet, the reason is irrelevant.... it does not make it right or legal, especially in Mr Kemp's case. Its still abuse of position.
 
Hi all, I think this sums it up well:

Even is it was to releive a Margin Call or an anticipated one, why should investors in this company suffer from the poor mismanagement of personal finances by a Director?In any case, even if it was to get out of a Margin Call, buy a new Mercedes or Pay Off a Bookie for a bad Horse Bet, the reason is irrelevant.... it does not make it right or legal, especially in Mr Kemp's case. Its still abuse of position.

Absolutely, Directors shares should never be exposed to margin calls, EVER! How on earth ASX or ASIC continue to allow this to happen beggars belief. But there is not even any comment about this in the media? :banghead: And in this case, the day before a poor announcement? How can that even come close to being legal! Double whammy!
 
Absolutely, Directors shares should never be exposed to margin calls, EVER! How on earth ASX or ASIC continue to allow this to happen beggars belief. But there is not even any comment about this in the media? :banghead: And in this case, the day before a poor announcement? How can that even come close to being legal! Double whammy!

It would appear that the playing field, is truly stacked against the average investor... if you dont have the inside knowledge your screwed.... very very unfair... im furious at these guys for their incompetence with MY money
 
So, NAB has the aquired the power to dispose of 26,000,000 shares. Yikes.

Protecting their loans no doubt to cover themselves. This could get dumped very quickly.
 
First post....Prompted by this thread alone.

Some of the posts above should be removed as electonic pollution. and make me question being here.

The back page of the Fin review 27th is about the only removed print about this I have read the public domain."Communication"

I don't think Eddie and his wife are cying into the Millions they have safely put away in protected financial structures. Good on them.

All the non investors boasting about how they are not affected because they were too clever...STOP POSTING GLOATS NO ONE CARES!

The market is responsible for this thats it.

After the event the questions arise about disclosure... but they were nowhere before the event?..This is the markets issue alone, the market values the stock. (Ok the regulators as well)
I do however agree that SOME with the power have not been playiing fair.
but they can and will
The trend means this is no real surprise.
Yes I am down (slightly) but have others I own that frustrate me much more.
My gains far out way this anyway...(Gloat!)
I own this stock and am Married to a valuable ABC employee.
I am still happy to be with both.
 
Mate, good to see your first post and encourage you to do more........

I could not be in more disagreement with you as many other serious investors on this site...

For one, my partner is also a professional child 'technician' who sometimes works at ABC's and I can assure you she dislikes the ABC experience just as much as those who owned ABC at $7...

I can assure you Eddie and Mrs Eddie would have seen a severe loss of wealth and if I measure Eddie accurately, this would have hurt big time......You lose a lot when you gear a stock that falls like ABC did....he could have almost lost everything

Not sure how one could say 'its just the market's fault' this one.....ABC should not have been trading.......as many posted before the event on this forum, rumours were circling which should have been disclosed as they were subsequently shown as truth......could there be any more clear lack of disclosure

Whether you're up or down personally, this is an unfortunate story about management who showed little regard to the principles of enhancing shareholder value...and now there's a fire sale of assets, whereas two days ago management said they were 'firing on all cylinders'....
 
" my partner is also a ...."
What a Technician was in childcare?.. Yes have some working for her at times....But the team is a mix of these and fulltime Qualified staff.

"I can assure you Eddie and Mrs Eddie would have seen a severe loss...
Please re read my post RE: "Structure"

"Not sure how one could say 'its just the market's fault..."
I do not class posts on this site as disclosure or legal Questioning of the company or ASX, just some people in the "Market" being the market.

"this is an unfortunate story about ..."
Please re reread my post RE: "Trend"

Sorry, Reading todays fin now... moved on.
 
Since you have obviously 'moved on' to read today's fin review..hehe... maybe you should log on to tomorrow's fin review on their website......the story about possible probe into insider trading and associated lack of disclosure may be of interest....

Mate, seriously, I'm not having a go....I just would not want the ABS event smoothed over.......this is everything about share investing that turns many people off.....ABS should have been a reliable, stable, growing, quality provider of child care with conservative financing......instead its a house of cards based on a business model that gives kiddies 1 sandwich instead of 3 for lunch
 
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