Aboriginal?

Brough (ex military) has to decide what sort of mission to call this
Is it a "Win the Hearts and Minds"
or a "Search and Destroy".

at the moment it sounds like a "Search and Win Hearts" , and it sounds like it's off to a shakey start.
Maybe they figure that the natural psychological process, when you're being held after a chase across the Sandy Desert, you'll probably agree to most anything.

I remember an Ab women in central Qld, used to complain whenever the cops took her into the watch house (usually under the grip of a truckload of grapes) "you're only taking me there to f*** me !!" usually at 120 dB. Who knows what the truth was - long time ago .

I have to concede that where Ab leaders are corrupt etc, then fairly drastic steps are justified, - but still you have to work with the good ones. imo. At the moment they're even getting the mothers off side.

Maybe they fear that Aids is on the increase, but it's taboo to say so

Something drastic needed to be done. We have gone along the path of gently gently for way to long. The abuse cycle needs to be broken and it needs a strong approach. The problem is then what? Will aboriginals in these communities suddenly have jobs and turn their back on crime?

Where do they go next if the problems in the community are sorted out? Ruts are ever so easy to fall back in, and cost a damn sight less then to get you out of.The Aboriginal leaders need to start taking a stronger approach instead of leaving their people lost.ATM they dont seem to want to help themselves.

This whole thing is an election stunt in a similar way that the children overboard/Tampa fiasco's were also election stunts. The smart politicians have found another emotive issue that is potentially very politically damaging to criticise. Something definitely needs to be done to address the problems that exist in remote communities, as something needs to be done to address the problems that also exist in urban Australia, for all races.
There is talk of police and nurses and social support staff and any number of other specialist people needed in the communities. Has anyone stopped to ask how many of these communities already have a staffed police station???, that all of them have an RN staffed health clinic, some with doctors but all on a regular RFDS visiting round, that many of them have social worker support staff resident???
There is talk of banning alcohol and pornography in the communities.. has anyone thought that it already is, that the alcohol and pr0n is purchased in urbanised centres i.e. the Alice.. Katherine..Darwin etc, invariably from non-aboriginal run enterprises, and taken back to the communities or consumed where bought..i.e the river in Alice???
When W.A's Alan Carpenter critisized John Howard over this new initiative (that has taken 11 years in office and a looming election to suddenly make it a major problem) he was advised that he should do the same in W.A communities. He obviously had done his homework and wasn't just politically shooting from the hip... all the Wongai people of the Ngaanyatjarra lands that stretch east from Kal to the W.A/S.A border, north to the Alice, and east to Telfer have through their own Ng council made it illegal to have alcohol anywhere on their lands and also control all of the petrol outlets where sniffable petrol has not been available, both for over 15 years... in fact when the Laverton shire zoned a piece of land just outside of the Ng shire suitable for a roadhouse that could also sell alcohol the Ng shire bought it and established a roadhouse that doesn't sell sniffable fuel or alcohol!!! Without Fed or State help. The Ng lands still have sniffing/grog/ violence/abuse/health/social problems. This isn't the answer, it may be a start, but more than a politically motivated heavy handed reaction that will fade away quietly after the election is needed.
A political stunt that once again Australia seems to be falling for...

Kauri

Agree 100%. The problem has been known for years, one has to question the timing and the bullyboy tactics used. He is brilliant at using the race card for political gain. Muslims, children in detention, children overboard, and Australian value tests for immigrants. Strange how he imposes unfair workplace laws that undermines our egalitarian cultural traditions and now imposes laws similiar to middle eastern nations on part of our community. Perhaps he should take the Australian values test himself.

Voilent men for eg need to be dealt with by the law. Alcohol is a problem that many communities have addressed. In Cairns also restrictions on the sale of cask wine are applied to everyone. Medical and social services should be provided where necessary. So why haven't they? We are punishing entire communities because we have failed in providing essential services?

It well could be that dictatorial style of leadership is required for aboriginal people but I cannot still agree with it. See Iraq for example, it worked better than democracy, still doesn't make it right. Not suggesting genocide is going to happen but cultural genocide will occur if people move into towns away from police state environments.

Plus we are ignoring the problems of domestic violence and alcohol abuse within our own community. Domestic violence for eg is the number one cause of death and disability in women aged 14-44 in the state of Victoria. 57% of women in Australia have been calculated as suffering some form of violence in their lifetimes. Would we accept such extreme measures ourselves? No we prefer not to even acknowledge the problem, repeating the reaction we have had as a nation toward child neglect in Aboriginal communities.

Hi all

It would be really good to see more aboriginal children regularly attending school and set their sights on tertiary education. If the means to this is boarding school, then I'm all for it.

Cheers
Happytrader

Why don`t aboriginals in the N.T. get together and form an exploration/production company for hydrocarbons or minerals?

They have the land so why not do something with it.

Chops,
You made good points.

Kauri said:

This whole thing is an election stunt in a similar way that the children overboard/Tampa fiasco's were also election stunts. The smart politicians have found another emotive issue that is potentially very politically damaging to criticise. Something definitely needs to be done to address the problems that exist in remote communities, as something needs to be done to address the problems that also exist in urban Australia, for all races.

Click to expand...

Spaghetti said:

Kauri

Agree 100%. The problem has been known for years, one has to question the timing and the bullyboy tactics used. He is brilliant at using the race card for political gain. Muslims, children in detention, children overboard, and Australian value tests for immigrants. Strange how he imposes unfair workplace laws that undermines our egalitarian cultural traditions and now imposes laws similiar to middle eastern nations on part of our community. Perhaps he should take the Australian values test himself.

Click to expand...

I am not Howard's number 1 fan, in fact I'll vote Liberal in spite of him, not because of him. And yes, he's cynically used wedge politics in the past to divide and conquer his opponents...in the republic debate, the Tampa, and so on.

With regards to Aboriginals, is he doing this for political gain? Frankly, I don't care....it had to be done to break the cycle of violence and abuse, now regardless of the motivation I think the ends justify it. Governments have tried all manner of programs and thrown a lot of money at this problem, and quite simply, it hasn't worked. If this protects kids from abuse I'm all for it...full stop. Noel Pearson, I think you talk a lot of sense.

PS Bob Brown called it racist when the emergency policy was announced, next day he smelled the political wind and said it didn't go far enough. All politicians are cynical, even the ideological ones, but sometimes a good policy comes about in spite of them.

I went back to the start of this thread and re-read some of my posts,I could almost have been chanelling Noel Pearson last night on Lateline,
again some of you are claiming that the PM is doing this for political gain,but this thread was started more than a year ago and what Nanette Rogers the chief prosecutor for the NT was saying then is presumably what the report found now,a report that the chief Minister held on for eight weeks before Mal Brough pushed for action,I believe that this action is being moved by Mal Brough with the help of John Howard of course,from the start he`s always looked like he really wants to do something about these issues so in my opinion not racist or politically motivated,sure if it works it`s not going to hurt the government but if it helps the Aboriginal women and children even better.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/06/27/1963921.htm
Community groups say things are improving

A coalition of Indigenous and community groups has come up with an alternative to the Federal Government's intervention in Aboriginal communities in the Northern Territory.

About 50 groups have met at Parliament House in Canberra to discuss the Government's strategy.

Olga Havnen, from the Northern Land Council, says the coalition will recommend the Commonwealth use programs already set up in some communities to address child abuse, school attendance, health and welfare. Ms Havnen says the interventionist approach that is under way is unlikely to work. "I'm not entirely confident about where these things are headed," she said.

"They seem to be rolling on with these initiatives to have a rapid assessment, there seems to be a proposal to start in certain communities in central Australia and then expand it. Having this enormous attention and the commitment and the resources to do it is probably not a bad idea, but what guarantees do we have that what they're doing is going to work."

Click to expand...

Abbot says things are improving

Abbott looks to SA.

Meanwhile, the federal Health Minister says progress in South Australian Aboriginal communities should help guide the Government's plan to improve Indigenous communities in the NT.

Tony Abbott has just spent two nights in the Anangu Pitjantjatjara Yankunytjatjara (APY) communities, examining the progress of a Council of Australian Governments trial.

He says while they are not yet model communities, it is encouraging that petrol sniffing has been almost wiped out, and there is improvement on other fronts.

"In some of the communities, school attendance is up to about 85 per cent, which is still not really good enough, but it's a hell of a lot better than it's been for many, many years," he said. I think the mood of the people is much more optimistic than it's been for a long time.

"I think I can report that there is some encouraging progress in the APY country, and I think there are obviously some lessons to be learnt by all agencies

Click to expand...

Police bring experience from Africa back home

Today, a group of 11 Federal Police (AFP) officers landed in Darwin ready for deployment as part of the Commonwealth's takeover of the NT's remote Indigenous communities.

The officers had been hand-picked for their experience in the world's trouble spots. The AFP officers flew in on two charter flights from Canberra.

They will be sworn in and face a week of training as NT police officers before they are sent to one of the 56 Indigenous communities affected by the Federal Government's intervention.

Senior Constable Peter Kowal says it is not his first remote deployment to a challenging region. "I've had two deployments in East Timor previously, and last year I had eight months in Sudan," he said.

Federal Agent Tracey Duck is expecting conditions on a par with Papua New Guinea. "From the briefing we had I think it would be very similar to the issues we were facing in Port Moresby," she said.

Their first deployment is for 10 weeks.

Click to expand...

chops_a_must said:

Sounds harsh... and really not like me about something... but I actually am having trouble caring.



It just seems to me that a lot of the aboriginal groups opposing this move aren't able to get any traction. I think people are just sick of a lot of talk and no action when it comes to matters of self governance and self determination etc.

The problems as I see it, in the Howard move, on a broad scale, are that the assumptions being made about aboriginal communities are really only applicable to the NT and northern Queensland, yet the libs are acting out as if the problems exist in all aboriginal communities. And also that the libs have cut many aboriginal programmes here in WA, which were having success.

Aside from that, dug up an online article about a successful programme in WA in regards to petrol sniffing:
http://www.drugtext.org/library/articles/94533.htm

Just goes to show the effort, time and resources required to have even a small impact on the community as a whole.

And we simply can't expend that energy everywhere. Something has got to give, and it has to come from the aboriginal community themselves. Because the hands off approach, the one the aboriginal community have wanted, has not worked, and has led to the problems we now have.

A new, different, and less corrupt version of ATSIC wouldn't go astray either.

Click to expand...

Chops,
I reluctantly have to agree with you absolutely on each point.
I almost didn't bump the thread because I was thinking "oh, do we really want to go over all this stuff again?" and wondered if anyone else was feeling similarly.
As you say, the hands off approach seems to have failed, not everywhere, but in many instances, so some sort of action seems to be worth trying.
I wonder how much we will learn about the actual outcomes.
The other really relevant point, I think, is that aboriginal communities have to stop their culture of concealement where the perpetrators of abuse are not reported but rather sheltered. What sort of message is that giving to the children?

visual said:

I went back to the start of this thread and re-read some of my posts,I could almost have been chanelling Noel Pearson last night on Lateline,
again some of you are claiming that the PM is doing this for political gain,but this thread was started more than a year ago and what Nanette Rogers the chief prosecutor for the NT was saying then is presumably what the report found now,a report that the chief Minister held on for eight weeks before Mal Brough pushed for action,I believe that this action is being moved by Mal Brough with the help of John Howard of course,from the start he`s always looked like he really wants to do something about these issues so in my opinion not racist or politically motivated,sure if it works it`s not going to hurt the government but if it helps the Aboriginal women and children even better.

Click to expand...

Hello Visual,

Agreed about Mal Brough. He does seem genuinely motivated to achieve real change. I certainly don't think any of this initiative came from John Howard.

this from ABC "just in"
Beatty is starting to make a lot of sense on Ab matters (imo )

Beattie calls on breweries to help Indigenous communities

Queensland Premier Peter Beattie is calling on breweries around the country to help combat the problems of alcohol abuse in Indigenous communities.

Mr Beattie and the Northern Territory's Chief Minister Clare Martin have met the Prime Minister in Brisbane this afternoon to discuss the Commonwealth's takeover of some Indigenous communities.

Mr Beattie says alcohol manufacturers make millions of dollars in profit and should take some responsibility for drinking problems .

"I would think that the breweries of Australia who make a lot of money out of Indigenous communities should start reinvesting in diversion programs and a number of others," he said.

"I make that call tonight to say to the breweries, today you have an obligation to join in with this partnership and help with rehabilitation programs."

Click to expand...

Re Spagetti's earlier comments

I was listening to Tony Delroy on the ABC recently.

He was saying that 60% of people in jail in the US were there as a result of behaviour brought about by drugs and/or alcohol.

The assumption is that the stats woud be similar in Australia.

I believe that people do things under the influence of drugs and alcohol that they might not otherwise do. Perpetrate violence etc.

If drug and alcohol abuse is reduced this would go a long way to reducing problems in society, I would imagine.

I do ask myself then, why do some take drink and drugs to excess?

Maybe, some were abused by alcoholic parents and are repeating the pattern?

It can be a vicious cycle.

Like the sexually abused child becoming an abuser.

I think reduced drink and drugs would help our society.

How do you reduce drug and alcohol abuse?

Is it about bringing about changes in individuals with Counselling etc.

Is it about not allowing advertising and glamourising of drink and drugs in movies etc

Is it about strengthening families?

20/20

Thanks for your post.

Do governments (State and/or Federal) make money from alcohol and cigaretters re taxes?

I think reduced drink and drugs would help our society.

How do you reduce drug and alcohol abuse?

Is it about bringing about changes in individuals with Counselling etc.

Is it about not allowing advertising and glamourising of drink and drugs in movies etc

Is it about strengthening families?

Click to expand...

well it couldn't possibly be about self-discipline and personal responsibility could it??

Disarray

I guess at the end of the day it all is about taking responsibility for oneself.

And I do think that some people have certain challenges.

I have been thinking about alcoholism etc lately. The reason being recent converstations I have had with a neighbour (not Aboriginal) who experienced daily violence as a child due to alcoholic parents.

He became an alcoholic. Although, he is now a teetotaller. He has suffered depression as a result of his childhood experiences. It is only recently, in his 40s, that he has had Counselling.

If you have not had these type of experiences, it is an eye opener. It has made me consider how others live.

I think children who have experienced alcoholism, abuse etc often carry the effects into adulthood. In obvious ways, such as becoming alcoholics themselves. Others will strive hard and become "successful" but manifest the results of their experiences in other ways such as becoming workaholics etc.

The poor sods are still in the same mess they were in last time i was in this thread.

I reckon if i come back in fifty years and check this thread they will still be up to their necks in $hit, mostly self inflicted and still blaming everyone else except themselves. About time they started sorting themselves out!!

To have to go in and clean up ENTIRE communities is disgraceful and an embarrassing.

I'm just glad someone is finally doing something about the pedophiles and violence. It makes my skin crawl.............

moneymajix said:

I believe that people do things under the influence of drugs and alcohol that they might not otherwise do. Perpetrate violence etc.

If drug and alcohol abuse is reduced this would go a long way to reducing problems in society, I would imagine.

I do ask myself then, why do some take drink and drugs to excess?

Maybe, some were abused by alcoholic parents and are repeating the pattern?

It can be a vicious cycle.

Like the sexually abused child becoming an abuser.

I think reduced drink and drugs would help our society.

How do you reduce drug and alcohol abuse?

Is it about bringing about changes in individuals with Counselling etc.

Is it about not allowing advertising and glamourising of drink and drugs in movies etc

Is it about strengthening families?

Click to expand...

Yes, you're right. Children often perpetuate the behaviour they have seen modelled in their growing up years.
And yes, the idealistic notion of "strengthening families" (however you might think you could do that) is great.
But Disarray is also right in that personal responsibility has to be the major factor. We can extend every possible understanding as to why any given situation has occurred, but sympathy has limited effectiveness. The dysfunctional communities need to accept the help that is presently being offered (which it appears they are indeed doing)and take responsibility for making fundamental changes. If there is a different mindset where they will no longer shelter abusers for fear of the shame involved, that would be a good start.

From the news I have seen tonight, the police and other authorities appear to have been genuinely welcomed into the two communities which they have visited so far which is really encouraging.