Aboriginal?

Bobby · 12 June 2007

wayneL said:
There's a hard core of bad'uns. Usual problems with alchohol etc. Most are making an effort to navigate through life as best they can.

Hello Wayne,

Sure there is good & bad, but what sh*ts me off about some so called Aboriginals is the ones with just a touch of aboriginality who take advantage of all thats avaliable to real aboriginals.

I had an interest in a large bottle shop- drive in type, we got hit that often by groups of these types, always at slack times when only one staff member was there.
The cops could do little about theft & threats if any form of aboriginals were involved, politics ?
Interesting is that the more pure ones were just good customers !

Cheers Bob.

rederob · 12 June 2007

disarray
You don't have a good grasp of many things, do you.
Context would be right up there, along with compassion.
In relation to arrests and incarceration, aboriginals do have a high rate, related mostly to drunkenness and assault (the two most often going together). The data is somewhat skewed, however, as in aboriginal communities the simplest solution for drunkenness is often incarceration whereas in urban Australia a caution is generally all that is needed.
However, most assaults by aborigines are against aborigines. In fact ABS data shows aborigines twice as likely to be assaulted (as perceived or actual "victims") as non-indigenous people.
Not surprisingly, most aboriginal perpetrators have low education levels (significant proportion has not achieved year 10) and are unemployed.
And when we look at crime data for non-indigenous we find the same trend.
So it seems when we boil down the down the data and compare like for like, there is very little difference.
Context: Joke: Aboriginals are significantly under represented in white collar crime. (Also a fact!)

disarray · 12 June 2007

look rob its you who is clueless. you are off tripping with the fairies in some myopic utopia where things are black and white, the poor aborigines are having a hard time and should be excused for their behaviour and the white man should shoulder all this guilt for doing nothing more than continuing the evolution of human history. its crap and i'm not buying into it.

you are spouting off totally irrelevant points about aborigines beating on other aborigines. well duh. but they aren't the ones footing the bill or bearing the guilt for all of this are they? and token examples aside the aboriginal population has not stood up and made a critical self-evaluation of their society.

and aborigines don't have a "high" rate of criminality. they have a MASSIVE rate of criminality. one in 4 aboriginal youths having criminal records isn't just a slight hiccup, it points to a deep seated fundamental problem with their entire culture, and it must be addressed as its the wider society paying for it in both monetary and victim terms.

your point ...

So it seems when we boil down the down the data and compare like for like, there is very little difference

is complete rubbish and i dismiss it completely. you will find in study after study the same finding that there is a huge difference between rates of criminality among aborigines compared to the wider population. jesus christ, 1 in 3 WA prisoners are aboriginal but they are only a fraction of the population, and its even worse in NT where 2 out of 3 are aboriginal.

as long as people like you and hindsight continue to wring your hands and tiptoe around the issues for fear of causing offence to people then nothing will be solved and the aborigines will continue to languish in the pathetic straits they find themselves in.

while i respect your idealism and know that your intentions are good (much like the government and church during the "stolen generation") you are part of the problem. quit your bleating, stop being so emotional and act upon facts, statistics and logic. then maybe we can bring them into wider society and find them posting their opinions on boards like this (while making a pile of cash).

Julia · 12 June 2007

rederob said:
disarray
Not surprisingly, most aboriginal perpetrators have low education levels (significant proportion has not achieved year 10) and are unemployed.

Given this fact, then, why wouldn't you be supportive of any government initiatives which will encourage the children to attend school?

My apologies if it was 2020 and not you, Rob, who was critical of the government paying families for the children to attend school. Doesn't matter really. I'd be interested in the response from either of you.
That's not to say I think parents should be paid if their children go to school: just compare this notion with HECS fees, but if that's the only way these children have a chance of some education, then it's imo better than nothing.

Julia · 12 June 2007

wayneL said:
Chaza,

Easy peezy lemon sqeezy?

I'm not quite sure why, but this really made me laugh. Just right, Wayne.

arminius · 12 June 2007

after everything that has been discussed on this forum, there are still a few who just dont get it. and probably never will.
the crime, drunkenness, violence and abuse is the end result of a deep seated problem- a clash of cultures.
our history has developed another problem- resentment.
because this lingers, many are afflicted by another deep problem- lack of hope.
those of you who look down your nose at anyone who cares for someone other than themselves, good luck with your life.
there are others who recognise the need to do something, however small, to rectify a huge humanitarian problem. we may not know the answers, but giving a shiit is a good beginning.

for the record, i read 2020's poems and think they are cool.

rederob · 12 June 2007

disarray
Study after study shows that unemployment and poor education in most nations leads to high rates of crime.
You really have trouble with that notion, don't you.
You seem not to be able to work out that there is a statistical bias that reflects, in the main, drunkenness and assault amongst aborigines at a higher rate than the rest of the community. You refer to this with the all encompassing phrase "criminality".
Truth be known, if you had a paddy wagon trolling our local streets at the same intensity that they patrol aboriginal communities, and locked all drunken folk up, then I reckon we (whitefellas) would come off pretty poorly.
I don't condone crime, irrespective of race.
But abusing data you don't understand, and not being able to relate the data to the subject matter is irresponsible and deceitful.
I'll give you one example.
Locking up the same few aboriginals in a small community week after week gives the statistical impression that crime is rife in that community when annualised data is interpreted. The reality may well be that there is little crime outside of a small group of regular troublemakers.
Aggregating similar data leads to the same conclusion.
The media are great at sensationalising any infraction from our minorities, be they black, white or brindle.
And folk like you are suckered into believing it's all as bad as the media make out.

You would do well to read a little more widely before purporting that your arguments are based on facts, statistics and logic.
The facts clearly show that whites and blacks closely approximate criminality based on social demographics.

Bobby · 12 June 2007

rederob said:
disarray
You don't have a good grasp of many things, do you.
Context would be right up there, along with compassion.
In relation to arrests and incarceration, aboriginals do have a high rate, related mostly to drunkenness and assault (the two most often going together). The data is somewhat skewed, however, as in aboriginal communities the simplest solution for drunkenness is often incarceration whereas in urban Australia a caution is generally all that is needed.
However, most assaults by aborigines are against aborigines. In fact ABS data shows aborigines twice as likely to be assaulted (as perceived or actual "victims") as non-indigenous people.
Not surprisingly, most aboriginal perpetrators have low education levels (significant proportion has not achieved year 10) and are unemployed.
And when we look at crime data for non-indigenous we find the same trend.
So it seems when we boil down the down the data and compare like for like, there is very little difference.
Context: Joke: Aboriginals are significantly under represented in white collar crime. (Also a fact!)

Rob please ,
Are you talking about real Aboriginals or part aboriginals ?
beleave me there is a seperation somewhere ..
Be a bit more easy on disarray, Id'e like to here more of his thoughts.

Your last statment - white collar crime, as the original abo'riginals didn't have the mental ability to progress past hunter & gather over thousands of years I do see your point ..: as you said Joke.

Have Fun Bobby.

disarray · 12 June 2007

rederob said:
disarray
Study after study shows that unemployment and poor education in most nations leads to high rates of crime.

i agree. which brings us to the point - why are aborigines more likely to be unemployed and poorly educated, despite free education, priority for government jobs and numerous other "affirmative action" policies specific to aborigines alone??

You really have trouble with that notion, don't you.

get over yourself

You seem not to be able to work out that there is a statistical bias that reflects, in the main, drunkenness and assault amongst aborigines at a higher rate than the rest of the community. You refer to this with the all encompassing phrase "criminality".

well considering a great many crimes go unreported this "statistical bias" would be skewed even further towards the fact that aborigines are doing themselves a great deal of harm wouldn't it?

hows about findings from UWA criminal research centre that found that one in five assaults, one in three robberies, more than one in three homicides and about one in ten sexual offences are inter-racial. About 93% of those involve Aboriginal offenders and non-Aboriginal victims.

but yes i agree, aborigines do far more harm than this to each other.

Truth be known, if you had a paddy wagon trolling our local streets at the same intensity that they patrol aboriginal communities, and locked all drunken folk up, then I reckon we (whitefellas) would come off pretty poorly.

blah blah blah unsubstantiated crap. how about this -

Judges sentence Aboriginals to 43% shorter jail terms than the rest of the population. If you are an Aboriginal felon then you can expect a jail term 42.8% shorter than a non- Aboriginal convicted for the same offence. The median aggregate sentence length for all offences for Aboriginals is 2 years, versus 3 years and 6 months for non-Aboriginals.

source - Source: Australian Institute of Criminology, November 1999. Data derived from Prisoners in Australia (ABS 1998)

But abusing data you don't understand, and not being able to relate the data to the subject matter is irresponsible and deceitful.
Locking up the same few aboriginals in a small community week after week gives the statistical impression that crime is rife in that community when annualised data is interpreted. The reality may well be that there is little crime outside of a small group of regular troublemakers.

how about we do away with the "may well be" crap and focus on substnatiated facts shall we?

http://www.crc.law.uwa.edu.au/publications/aboriginal_youth

The media are great at sensationalising any infraction from our minorities, be they black, white or brindle.
And folk like you are suckered into believing it's all as bad as the media make out.

actually i have consistently quoted reputable sources such as the UWA Crime Research Centre, Australian Institute of Criminology Papers, and the Australian Human Rights and Equal Opportunities Commission. your sources of information, besides your backside, are ...?

http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/tandi/ti13.pdf

http://www.hreoc.gov.au/social_justice/madrid/issue1.html

You would do well to read a little more widely before purporting that your arguments are based on facts, statistics and logic.
The facts clearly show that whites and blacks closely approximate criminality based on social demographics.

thank you come again.

p.s. google > you

rederob · 12 June 2007

Using data as much as 20 years old does not cut it.
And you still don't understand the limitations of the data you quote.

Just so that you get some perspective, this is taken from one of your links:

The Royal Commission into Aboriginal Deaths in Custody concluded that the over-representation of Indigenous people in the criminal justice system is inextricably linked to their socio-economic status. The Report found that ‘the single significant contributing factor to incarceration is the disadvantaged and unequal position of Aboriginal people in Australian society in every way, whether socially, economically or culturally.’ [27]

Indigenous Australians remain the most disadvantaged of all Australians. There are clear disparities between Indigenous and non-Indigenous Australians across all indicators of quality of life. In August 2000, the Committee on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights expressed concern ‘that, despite the efforts and achievements of the State party, the indigenous populations of Australia continue to be at a comparative disadvantage in the enjoyment of economic, social and cultural rights, particularly in the field of employment, housing, health and education’.

Elsewhere in your links there is a statistic showing that 50% of incarcerations in the Kimberley region are alcohol related. As I said, a small number of repeat offenders can significantly distort perceptions of reality.

And you contend that this group has so many advantages through their aboriginality. Shorter jail sentences it seems.

Bobby · 13 June 2007

Disarray has confirmed his facts, I suggest that those who wish to state their comments do the same !

As for facts : Whats the murder capital of Australia ? its the same place that needs 4 times the normal policing per population cap ?

Hint- big aboriginal population.
Where is it ?

Whities are leaving in droves.
look for the media reports soon.

Reality Bob.

2020hindsight · 13 June 2007

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=168620&highlight=stew#post168620
just a quick poem - trying to accentuate a few positives.
speaking of facts - does anyone doubt that this situation , crime rates, substance abuse etc, murder, suicides, police brutality (Northbridge, Redfern whereever), is going downhill? - by which I mean the numbers are going up? (although as Chops said, police brutality has been around since the Rum Rebellion - just these days we all tend to use metho and "sophisticated stuff" like crack instead of Rum )

And hence wouldn't you suspect we should change our ways somewhere? twig the steering here or there?
Like someone predicted about the new Carriageworks Opera House in South Sydney, you'll come out of the opera house in your tuxedo, and you get beaten up on your way to the car. Hardly makes for a fun night out. (but to be fair, the NSW govt have tried to include the Abs in getting that thing built, (a stipulation of building contracts) and hopefully it will also be a positive - not that the Abs are likely to go see Aida I guess. .

disarray · 13 June 2007

rederob said:
Using data as much as 20 years old does not cut it.
And you still don't understand the limitations of the data you quote.

well i would like to use more recent data but unfortunately the recent attorney general report has been suppressed by the forces of political correctness. however you have yet to provide any evidence to back up any of your claims.

yes you say i'm not interpreting the data correctly because the same aborigines are being arrested over and over again. well the same 25% of their juvenile population acting like criminals over and over again will do that. it doesn't change the fact that in WA 1 in 4 youth are repeat criminals or in NT 2 in 3 prisoners are aboriginal.

as for your report quote, that is exactly my point. aborigines are disadvantaged and hold unequal position in their society. once again, for the millionth time this discussion, is ask WHY?

why, despite billions of government dollars, free education and priority for government employment do aborigines continue to languish so far behind the rest of the country?

try and stick to the point instead of just trying to naysay and twist every fact i give you.

And you contend that this group has so many advantages through their aboriginality. Shorter jail sentences it seems.

and free money. and free housing. and free healthcare. and free education. and priority placement for government jobs.

nioka · 13 June 2007

disarray said:
and free money. and free housing. and free healthcare. and free education. and priority placement for government jobs.

Don't forget land rights to a very large portion of Aust with mining royalties in the millions and the ability to hinder mining development. Also the right to fish without a licence,free entry to national parks, the right to eat turtle and hunt native animals. etc etc etc.

greggy · 13 June 2007

Captain_Chaza said:
Well officer Wayne

You probably wouldn't believe this but
My nextdoor nieighbours and great friends were two Aboriginal kids

It was in the mid 1950's then when it was considered by childless couples to act as good samaritans and take care /bring up as there own any aboriginal child they thought was disadvantaged

The "Doyles" were an amazing and lovely couple
They adopted these 2 children (Aboriginals) and were always better dressed than me, better fed and then even better educated

I think those two kids were very well looked after in those days and the Doyles should never be accused of a Stolen Generation
Their Aboriginal parent at the time was totally incompetant and backward in all forms of family life as understood by modern man .

Good onya Mr and Mrs Doyle
I know you did the "RIGHT THING" and brought them up to be great little human beings

Crikey! I used to call them
"The Gifted Generation" not the 'Stolen Ones"

Salute and Gods speed

Ahoy Captain Chaza,

Don't you think there's a certain irony in you now contributing to a topic that you think is a waste of time and telling us to "grow up".
Jokes aside your story about the Doyles is heartwarming stuff. Thanks for telling this story. However, I know for a fact that large numbers of Aboriginal children were taken away from their parents simply because they were Aboriginees irrespective of how they cared for them.

2020hindsight · 14 June 2007

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=169063&highlight=friendship#post169063 just another poem - no need to go there unless you're left with nothing to do (and you've got the right intentions )

chops_a_must · 15 June 2007

rederob said:
You seem not to be able to work out that there is a statistical bias that reflects, in the main, drunkenness and assault amongst aborigines at a higher rate than the rest of the community. You refer to this with the all encompassing phrase "criminality".

You would do well to read a little more widely before purporting that your arguments are based on facts, statistics and logic.
The facts clearly show that whites and blacks closely approximate criminality based on social demographics.

Seems like you might partly be in the wrong rederob. In WA, 83% of all unlawful woundings carried out by Juveniles, are carried out by Aboriginal youths. And the same with two thirds of assaults. That would indicate that aboriginal youths are more likely to carry out violent crimes, over and above assault than other groups.

I for one, am terrified on trains at night, when I am the only one in the car, apart from a multitude of aboriginal kids. Knowing their antics on trains and at stations, I think the fear is well founded.

But yes, in general, crime statisitcs reflect socio-economic factors and education levels.

And yes Bobby, the last time we went to Alice we were told by the manager lady at the hotel when we arrived, "Don't cross the river on your own, and certainly don't go across after dark. White people just don't go there."

Spaghetti · 15 June 2007

Yes why is it so bad?

Not us surely?

I do admit that in WA and NT there are far more ranging problems than in QLD. For example I live in an aboriginal area and do not fear for my life and I do not find any difference in human behaviour. I have never had any incident to me personally that gives me fear.

On the other hand I have been molested by men, all white, when I was young. I have been robbed by men, all white. I have been in a car crash caused by a drunk , white man. So I guess my personal experience is that aborigines do not hurt me, but white men do. Depends on personal experience I guess.

2020hindsight · 15 June 2007

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200706/s1952739.htm
Todays report .

I think Brough has his heart in the right place, I just wish that between him and the Labour state and territory govts, there had been a bit more to show for the money that has been spent.

What was promised 17 April 2006 :-

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2006/s1617255.htm
TONY EASTLEY: The Federal Minister for Indigenous Affairs Mal Brough says the disturbing conditions in the Alice Springs Aboriginal camps are unacceptable but the Government is in a good position to do something about it.
Last week on AM a fellow Federal Minister Joe Hockey described Alice Springs town camps as ghettos of despair.

There have been 15 murders and cases of manslaughter in the town in the past 16 months and The Age newspaper says physical and sexual abuse is common amongst the two and a half thousand people who live in the camps' squalid conditions.

The paper detailed the case of 15-year-old Jenissa Ryan, the great-granddaughter of Albert Namatjira, who died after being bashed and raped.

The Minister for Indigenous Affairs Mal Brough has promised to restore law and order.... etc

And recent negotiations that broke down on the same / similar matter (sheesh, how much was riding on a successful outcome to those negotiations)

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s1931466.htm

Bobby · 15 June 2007

Spaghetti said:
Yes why is it so bad.?

Not us surely?

I do admit that in WA and NT there are far more ranging problems than in QLD. For example I live in an aboriginal area and do not fear for my life and I do not find any difference in human behaviour. I have never had any incident to me personally that gives me fear.

You said it Spag's--- why is it so bad, try a holiday in Wilcania & then tell us your opinion if you survive

Bobby.

Aboriginal?

Bobby

rederob

disarray

Julia

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arminius

rederob

Bobby

disarray

rederob

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2020hindsight

disarray

nioka

greggy

2020hindsight

chops_a_must

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Spaghetti

2020hindsight

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