Aboriginal?

rederob said:

Hi Julia
We have had 11 years of a coalition government with what benefit to Aboriginal Australians?
Before that we had even longer under Labor.
There have been many inquiries and reports, with hundreds of recommendations and ideas that would benefit individuals and communities.
They have been prepared largely in consultation, and by people working closely with the communities concerned.
Very, very few of the ideas and recommendations ever see the light of day.
The solutions needed are complex, yet what is continually offered up are piecemeal tid bits that have appeal to voters and simply band aid the odd fix here and there - nothing too lasting.
Indeed, that's the problem. Some good ideas get to see the light of day and then run out of money, or impetus.
I wouldn't need unlimited funds to put in place what might work better than exists now, but I would need a lot of time.

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Rob, thanks for your response.
But, since I don't know what recommendations and ideas you are referring to, I'd really appreciate your simply listing what you feel should be done to improve the lot of aboriginal people.
I'm not trying to be picky or difficult here, but I really am no wiser from your above reply as to what you think will actually benefit indigenous people.

e.g. is it helpful to ban alcohol or is this patronising, paternalistic and unreasonable?

e.g. how, specifically, would you address the appalling level of domestic violence and child rape?

e.g. how, specifically, would you go about improving aboriginal health outcomes?

e.g. how, specifically, would you find a way to address aboriginal umemployment?

etc etc.

regards
Julia

i havent read all the posts on this thread but heres my 2 bobs worth.

before anyone defends the govt (all govts really since colonisation), or says aboriginals are no hopers etc... read up, get the facts, do not succumb to propaganda.

white man has been trying to get rid of the natives since 1788. we wanted their land. simple. they were killed, massacred, and paid in grog and smokes to make it harder to fight back.

no one alive is to blame.
a sincere apology is the first step.
if any aborigines are reading this, on behalf of my own ancestors for any wrongs they may have committed, i for one am sorry.

arminius said:

i havent read all the posts on this thread but heres my 2 bobs worth.

before anyone defends the govt (all govts really since colonisation), or says aboriginals are no hopers etc... read up, get the facts, do not succumb to propaganda.

white man has been trying to get rid of the natives since 1788. we wanted their land. simple. they were killed, massacred, and paid in grog and smokes to make it harder to fight back.

no one alive is to blame.
a sincere apology is the first step.
if any aborigines are reading this, on behalf of my own ancestors for any wrongs they may have committed, i for one am sorry.

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Me too, I am sorry for what we did but more importantly I am sorry for what we do now.

Dukey said:

Definition from answers.com...
Vil·i·fi·ca·tion
n.The act of vilifying or defaming; abuse.

Your statement constitutes racial vilification as far as I'm concerned.

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:iagree:
no way should we resort to crazy derogatory racial generalisations.

"All who are not of good race in this world are chaff" .. Adolf Hitler

arminius said:

i havent read all the posts on this thread but heres my 2 bobs worth.

before anyone defends the govt (all govts really since colonisation), or says aboriginals are no hopers etc... read up, get the facts, do not succumb to propaganda.

white man has been trying to get rid of the natives since 1788. we wanted their land. simple. they were killed, massacred, and paid in grog and smokes to make it harder to fight back.

no one alive is to blame.
a sincere apology is the first step.
if any aborigines are reading this, on behalf of my own ancestors for any wrongs they may have committed, i for one am sorry.

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Before you get too sanctamonious, the early Aboriginals gave as good as that got. A lot of reflectives fell victim to the black fella in early years, there was even incidents in the early 1900's where white families were massacred. As to the grog cigarettes etc, thats personal choice and i doubt you could use that as an excuse given that whites have equal or more access to the stuff. problem is a lot of non-reflectives don't know when enough grog is enough, or just use it as an excuse.

Younger generation non-reflectives use anything as an excuse to hate white man rather than getting on with their lives.

Finally, Australia probably has more asian and non-english people on its shores today, so why blame the english for some **** that happened two hundred years ago? Plenty of asians and other non-whites assimilate well into australian societyI . I say get over it and become part of the human race.

FF, but when you call em "no hopers"
that's an indictment on the rest of us (non aboriginals), and furthermore
(taking it literally, which is where there is a sad ring of truth), it's obviously just plain unacceptable to stand by and watch other aussies slipping into a predicament where they are "living without hope".

in·dict·ment
–noun 1. any charge, accusation, serious criticism, or cause for blame.
2. Law. a formal accusation initiating a criminal case, presented by a grand jury and usually required for felonies and other serious crimes.

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PS I'm suggesting we accept the fact that we should do more (whether schools, housing, outback industries that are initially very costly but produce results after maybe a generation or even two)- while we are at step 1, rather than at step 2.

2020hindsight said:

FF, but when you call em "no hopers"
that's an indictment on the rest of us (non aboriginals), and furthermore
(taking it literally, which is where there is a sad ring of truth), it's obviously just plain unacceptable to stand by and watch other aussies slipping into a predicament where they are "living without hope".

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But hang on, there's plenty of white aussies who are in the same boat and receive no mention. the only reason the indeginous people get the spotlight is because they supposedly have a cause. fact is they get a truck load of handouts and get better health care than most up north. For a minority group in this country they have to be the most well looked after and probably the most outspoken. You can lead a horse to water...

Moreover a lot of them don't want to assimilate/work because its just too easy a life they already have. and when they start running short they just come out and blame the whites, even though our multicultural country is no longer run exclusively by whites. they have some of the best land in the country to live on. They whole thing is a media beet up on both sides

At the risk of being crucified by the do gooders I agree with you FF.I have had a few aboriginals work for me in the past and they were the nicest people and good employees however in the end they just left their job when various family hassles became too much for them.The problem is no one has the guts to sort out this mess because of accusations of racism and issues of political correctness.Reverse racism is rampant how do you think somebody like Pauline Hanson got so far in politics despite having no policies?The other thing I have noticed is that without exception people who have gone to work in areas with a high population of aboriginals always return less tolerant /sympathetic towards them so I believe that to have a truely informed opinion you would need to live close to them for a time.

The point is this: There have been some fair criticisms of aborigines in this thread, but how many of these "fair" criticisms are because of the simple fact of their race... just because they are aboriginal?

I don't see one. This behaviour we're critical of, would be (and is) endemic amongst whitefella if in identical circumstances; or indeed any race of people.

So to condemn an entire race of people as "no-hopers" IS racist.

Case in point: the white English "chav". Apart from the colour, the behaviour is almost indiscernible.

waza1960 said:

The other thing I have noticed is that without exception people who have gone to work in areas with a high population of aboriginals always return less tolerant /sympathetic towards them so I believe that to have a truely informed opinion you would need to live close to them for a time.

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I lived in Darwin for 3 years and actively sort to get to know the Aboriginal plight. I think I only really touched the surface and was negatively influenced by the city aboriginal, but I left with some appreciation. At the time, I left more negative and less sympathetic as you describe, but I have now come to an understanding linked to Wayne's comment, that if whitefella were in their situation, the situation would be the same. Many of us would be the same negative steroetypes described through this thread. The difference now is that we have had 100s of years of 'Western' development and industrialisation. The Aboriginal is only just going through that process and I imagine it takes some time. Many Aboriginals are still not even accepting 'Western' life and continue to live off the land etc, the way they always have. One day, possibly another century or two, the Aboriginal may become more 'Western' in attitude (if not wiped out) and will join the rest of us in this materialistic, conceited, narcissistic society, we call 'modern living'. If we are still around ourselves.

well I reckon everyone can argue till they're blue in the face. perhaps this is an amicable time to shut down this thread

Flying Fish said:

well I reckon everyone can argue till they're blue in the face. perhaps this is an amicable time to shut down this thread

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The mods will decide on that.

I occasionally see the term "do-gooder" used
Just curious, presumably the opposite is a "do -badder"

Question then becomes, why would you be proud of it ?

Julia said:

Rob, thanks for your response.
But, since I don't know what recommendations and ideas you are referring to, I'd really appreciate your simply listing what you feel should be done to improve the lot of aboriginal people.
I'm not trying to be picky or difficult here, but I really am no wiser from your above reply as to what you think will actually benefit indigenous people.

e.g. is it helpful to ban alcohol or is this patronising, paternalistic and unreasonable?

e.g. how, specifically, would you address the appalling level of domestic violence and child rape?

e.g. how, specifically, would you go about improving aboriginal health outcomes?

e.g. how, specifically, would you find a way to address aboriginal umemployment?

etc etc.

regards
Julia

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Julia
I don't have to answer these questions because many of the aboriginal communities already have some or all the issues in check.
The real question is why the successes in communities are not modelled elsewhere.
Unfortunately we keep hearing about the worst things impacting on or carried out by aborigines.
Maybe if more of the good stories were told on mainstream media, and not just on "Message stick TV" a few more people would get wise to what could be done.

Julia said:

Rob, thanks for your response.
But, since I don't know what recommendations and ideas you are referring to, I'd really appreciate your simply listing what you feel should be done to improve the lot of aboriginal people.
I'm not trying to be picky or difficult here, but I really am no wiser from your above reply as to what you think will actually benefit indigenous people.

e.g. is it helpful to ban alcohol or is this patronising, paternalistic and unreasonable?

e.g. how, specifically, would you address the appalling level of domestic violence and child rape?

e.g. how, specifically, would you go about improving aboriginal health outcomes?

e.g. how, specifically, would you find a way to address aboriginal umemployment?

etc etc.

regards
Julia

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Yep Julia those are pertinant questions, etc etc is correct.
To be fair to Rob, lets ask it of all those posters who wish to help aboriginals regarding your 4 points to start
with .................................................... ?

Cheers Bobby.

Hey Wayne is that avatar meant to be Don Quixote?
are you practicing to be an astronaut?
King of the Incas maybe?

As for the aborigines, use some imagination
let em get some success, whether a movie (like the Maoris do - and indeed the Aborigines are increasingly doing)
or photocopying machine factories (like the Navehos) etc etc

PS and maybe give em back a bit of dignity with a formal aoplogy.
Heard a great poem the other day - and aboriginal woman whose child was taken off her.
Let's talk possible legitimate causes for depression.
Let's talk these things through, not cause them to turn their backs on the PM in parliament ( as JH managed to do youll recall )

Maybe lets raise awareness ( like this thread )
maybe contribute to the do-gooders instead of sitting on the fence

Hey 20 if you havent already try watchin the aboriginal movie "TEN CANOES" Quite moving, funny, sad and all that, But you have to know how to read cause its subtitled.

Synopsis

'Bout time to tell you a story, eh? Then I'll tell you one of ours...

It is longtime ago. It is our time, before you other mob came from cross the ocean...longtime before then. The rains been good and ten of the men go on the swamp, to hunt the eggs of gumang, the magpie goose. One of the men, the young fella, has a wrong love, so the old man tell him a story...a story of the ancient ones, them wild and crazy ancestors who come after the spirit time, after the flood that covered the whole land...

It's a good story, this story I'm gonna be tellin' you 'bout the ancient ones. There's more wrong love in this story, and plenty spears too, and plenty wives...too many wives if you ask me...a beautiful young one and a bit of a jealous one and the older wise one and even more wives than that.

And there's plenty happens in this story...there's a stranger comes and one of them wives goes missin' and there's a man with a belly big as a mountain. There's sorcery and magic too, and a wrong spear in the wrong body, and more spears and bad spirits. And even that's not everything that's happening in this story.

Ahh, you gotta see this story of mine cause it'll make you laugh, even if you're not a blackfella. Might cry a bit too eh? But then you laugh some more...cause this story is a big true story of my people. True thing.

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M8, I can remember Jedda !
even Crocodile Dundee !
(But yep I'll practice my reading skills and look out for Ten Canoes as well )

Speaking of true stories
My granpa had a story .. one of the aboriginal stockmen asked him to write to Mr McWirter (of the store McWirters , McWhirters(?)) in Brisbane for a new pair of boots.
My Granpa explained that the original Mr McWirter was dead, but yep the store was still trading so yep he'd help him.
so he dictates to him :-

"Dear Mr McWirter
I hear you are dead
please send me a new pair of boots
Jacky Jacky pinched mine. "


PS My grandpa was born out near Birdsville, and only had Aboriginal kids for playmates - so he loved their sense of humour intentional or otherwise.

human history abounds with migrations, displacements, massacres and assimilations. it is our nature to expand and conquer as a result for the competition for resources. the aboriginals were no different, having had their own warfare, massacres, displacements, assimilations and so on, it is the nature of our species.

in no way will i apologise to, or accept an apology on my behalf, the aboriginal people for their succumbing to the inexorable tide of human history. if it wasn't the english it would have been the french 2 weeks later, or the japanese in world war 2, or even the indonesians in more recent history. this bleeding heart "oh i am so deeply and sincerely sorry" is sycophantic liberal guilt and i will not associate myself with it in any way.

as for an earlier comment that westerners who are downtrodden would turn out like the aborigines is rubbish. the irish suffered starvation and discrimination for hundreds of years and yet have managed to create a vibrant and successful society both at home and abroad. jews were massacred in their millions (for hundred of years) and yet have managed in a short period of time to create a successful, modern society. the chinese had tens of millions of people hooked on opium and had their economy pillaged by the western colonial powers yet have managed to leverage their 1 billion peasants into an economic force.

there are many unpopular theories floating around which no one dares talk about, but which give an insight into the difference between races. the simple fact is this - not all people are created equal. some are smarter, some are dumber, some have higher visual acuity, some are physically larger. acquiant yourself with the bell curve, its just like a chart so its easy to figure out. the sooner we drop all the cultural and racial relativism crap the sooner we can have an open and honest discussion about what the problem is, and the better of we will be trying to find a solution.

we have all evolved differently to adapt to our specific environmental conditions. as a species we are superbly suited to deal with our unique environments, however the last few hundred years have seen fundamental changes to our world and how we control it, yet the rule is as simple now as it has always been - adapt or die out.

anyway imo the biggest hurdle aboriginal communities in this country face (aside for their own internal corruption) is the bleeding heart liberals who continue to carry them and "enable" their weaknesses. their choices really are simple, get on board with the rest of society or go tribal with all the negatives of health, mortality etc. that go with it. however they won't be getting their land back unless they take it by force (or we give them bits and pieces of it).