Guns

[moXJO]

They store the ammo as well according to a swiss mate. They also have fully automatic weapons available.
The swiss teach children from a young age about conflict resolution and are very good with mental health care.

 

[Value Collector]

I am not for guns, but was just stating that they had similar views.

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GENEVA — The Swiss are armed to the teeth.

Only the United States and Yemen have more guns per capita than this Alpine nation of 8.5 million people.

But mass shootings are rare here unlike in the U.S. where the country is still reeling from its latest tragedy at a Florida high school that left 17 dead.

About 2 million guns are estimated to be in circulation in Switzerland, according to GunPolicy. org, which publishes international data on firearms.

Though weapons are ubiquitous here and gun laws are relatively liberal, crime is low. In the past 10 years, guns were used in less than 120 homicides, government figures show.

Switzerland hasn’t seen a mass shooting since 2001, when a gunman opened fire in the legislative body in the Canton of Zug, fatally shooting 14 people before killing himself.

So, what is Switzerland doing differently?

Vigilance is one factor.

As an extra safety net, the government encourages professionals like mental health providers to report anyone they suspect of being dangerous, and has created a database listing all gun license refusals.

“We check it every time someone wants to purchase a firearm to make sure it doesn’t end up in wrong hands,” said Lulzana Musliu, a spokeswoman for the Federal Office of Police, which oversees the sale and licensing of guns.

For the U.S., 2017 was considered the deadliest year for mass shootings in more than a decade. The runner-up: 2016, which saw 188 people lost in such attacks.

The Florida shooting rampage has rekindled interest in legislation that allows a judge to order authorities to remove guns from a threatening person or prevent a gun sale if a police officer or relative makes the request.

At least five states in the U.S. have adopted the measures allowing for police to remove weapons or prevent gun sales, under what are often called "extreme risk protection orders." Legislation is pending in Congress urging states to adopt more of the provisions. President Trump and Florida Gov. Rick Scott have each said they will review gun restrictions in an effort to keep weapons out of the hands of the mentally ill.


In Switzerland, the government also banned immigrants from eight countries, including Algeria, Sri Lanka, Turkey and nations of ex-Yugoslavia from owning firearms. This rule stems from political conflicts and hostilities that simmer within these groups, posing “a serious threat” to the safety of our population, Musliu added.

Oversight and legal restrictions only go so far. What also keeps gun violence under control is the sense of responsibility deeply engrained in this safety-conscious society.

“The Swiss use their guns for target practice or hunting. Unlike Americans, they don’t arm themselves to protect their families or commit crime,” Martin Killias, criminology expert at Lausanne University told Geneva’s daily newspaper, Le Temps.

The Swiss Shooting Sports Association has about 3,000 clubs across the country, including a youth section where children as young as 12 learn to handle and shoot a gun safely. Last year, the Defense Ministry contributed about $860,000 for training, and the government donated 10,585 army assault rifles and 930,000 rounds of ammunition to gun clubs.

Swiss history of gun ownership

Since World War II, soldiers serving in the Swiss military kept their weapons and ammunition at home. This gave rise to the famous “gun in every closet” phrase pro-gun lobbyists in the U.S. and elsewhere used to tout Switzerland’s liberal arms law.

But that changed somewhat in 2007, a year after Swiss champion skier Corinne Rey-Bellet and her brother were shot by Corinne's estranged husband, who used his old military-issue rifle to commit the murder.

After that incident, the government ordered that ammunition for army weapons be left in arsenals, although the guns could still be kept at home.

Anti-gun activists argued that this rule was ineffective, because it didn’t apply to weapons owned by civilians — collectors, hunters and amateur marksmen. The mainstream consensus was that Swiss gun owners didn’t need any more restrictions because the existing laws regulating the sale and licensing of private guns were stringent enough.

In 2011, 56% of voters rejected a referendum by leftist parties and church groups trying to ban military guns from private homes on the grounds that existing laws were strict enough.

The Swiss have much stronger regulations than the USA when it comes to private guns.

It’s only the military weapons that boost the numbers, and as I said these guns largely just collect dust, sitting in closets with no ammunition.

 

[Value Collector]

They store the ammo as well according to a swiss mate. They also have fully automatic weapons available.
The swiss teach children from a young age about conflict resolution and are very good with mental health care.

Nope, not since 2007, and the majority of guns are pretty much just souvenirs of people’s military service, it’s not the same gun culture based on fear that the USA have.

 

[moXJO]

Nope, not since 2007, and the majority of guns are pretty much just souvenirs of people’s military service, it’s not the same gun culture based on fear that the USA have.

The Swiss have much stronger regulations than the USA when it comes to private guns.

It’s only the military weapons that boost the numbers, and as I said these guns largely just collect dust, sitting in closets with no ammunition.

These are both untrue. They are one of the biggest sporting shooter nations.
They have a huge shooting culture.
They can also buy their service weapon once they are done (once a permit is obtained).
Every man must join the militia or be taxed extra. They encourage shooting to keep their skills up.

"Switzerland was at risk of being invaded by Germany during World War II but was spared, historians say, because every Swiss man was armed and trained to shoot," according to TIME.

So a few guys with guns against tanks planes and bombs huh.

I can buy the same gun as used in the massacre- in Switzerland and NZ probably in a lot of other countries as well. Gun crime is going down in most of these countries.

Americans problem is there are no checks and little regulation, plus a rampant Rambo culture.

So good luck with attempted bans, in my opinion it will just be ignored. The US needs to redefine the way it views firearms and start with regulation, early education and checks. There are too many guns in the system already.

 

[moXJO]

Nope, not since 2007, and the majority of guns are pretty much just souvenirs of people’s military service, it’s not the same gun culture based on fear that the USA have.

According to my mate they can keep ammo at home if they are guarding certain infrastructure.

 

[Value Collector]

These are both untrue. They are one of the biggest sporting shooter nations.
They have a huge shooting culture.
They can also buy their service weapon once they are done (once a permit is obtained).
Every man must join the militia or be taxed extra. They encourage shooting to keep their skills up.



So a few guys with guns against tanks planes and bombs huh.

I can buy the same gun as used in the massacre- in Switzerland and NZ probably in a lot of other countries as well. Gun crime is going down in most of these countries.

Americans problem is there are no checks and little regulation, plus a rampant Rambo culture.

So good luck with attempted bans, in my opinion it will just be ignored. The US needs to redefine the way it views firearms and start with regulation, early education and checks. There are too many guns in the system already.

As I said, totally different gun culture to the USA.

 

[luutzu]

Lots of door to door operations happen, even on massive scale such as Fallujah.

That's probably the Clint Eastwood version there.

Chomsky called Fallujah the worst massacre since Vietnam. Saying that it's hailed as a great victory where general Petraeus became god and lord protector but the city was practically destroyed. Not sure but I think he might have compared it to the raid of the Mongols 800 years ago.

UN and Iraqi doctors report that cancer rate after the operation was higher than that of Hiroshima - high use of depleted uranium. Birth defects off the scale. etc. etc.

Then there's the returned vets physically or psychologically injured. Some US estimate put that cost in the trillions for just two wars alone. But then the US tend not to do much to take care of their returned vets so maybe that's somebody else's problem.

Pretty senseless. Could just hand the Iraqis half the financial costs so far and we'd all have peace, friends and oil we want from them.

But then the cost of war are paid for by the taxpayers, the soldiers are mainly from poor families, and profits goes to the top soooo I guess it make a lot of sense.

 

[luutzu]

Towns are softened up before they send the troops in. US just sends the Kurds in so US troops don't get shot.

It is extremely challenging taking cities though.

Yea, I read that from Sun Tzu

[The objective of military operation is victory, not fighting.
It is better to take an army whole than to destroy it;
Better to take a city whole than to destroy it.

Therefore, the greatest strategy is to win without fighting.
Next best is to attack where they cannot defend.
Worst is to attack walled cities.]

I definitely misquote him above. But he's so smart even I can't ruin his observation.


US post-WWII planners were quite ingenious. They managed to control and own practically the entire world without most anyone knowing about it.

Not sure if the recent flare up across most of the world are the result of poorer quality strategists or declining economic power and influence, or a bit of both.

But yea, you know your grip is losing when colonies are either in flame or not taking order as swiftly as they used to.

Take South Korea. Trying to ask why certain defensive systems are imported into their country, for their own security. Grudgingly going along with war games while trying to talk peace and hold hands with their number one enemy... not putting enough troops and ships behind its obligation to enforce your sanctions that you're planning to send your own "coast guard" over.

 

[luutzu]

If the murders of schoolchildren or innocent churchgoers (a big deal in religious USA) has no effect I think it's likely nothing will.

I think that a lot of people including politicians are scared to campaign against guns for for of attracting attention by the crazies, and a bullet or three at their next doorstop.

Even John Howard had to wear a flak jacket in rural areas when trying to get his gun laws through.

If children or people of certain tax brackets are at the same risk of getting into one of these crazy massacre, things will change in a heartbeat.

'til then, they beefed up on security and private body guards. The poorer ones live in gated community, gentrify the suburbs around those gates and have police circles them streets more frequent than not.

These measures work in all third world countries so why not. Well, until maybe the Tesla map take them off course and away from the supercharger or something.

 

[Value Collector]

As I said, totally different gun culture to the USA.

Having a few state issues guns collecting dust in the cupboard until you go along once a year, collect your 50 state issued rounds, have a shoot then go home for another 12 months with an unloaded rifle is nothing like the USA culture

 

[Value Collector]

That's probably the Clint Eastwood version there.

Chomsky called Fallujah the worst massacre since Vietnam. Saying that it's hailed as a great victory where general Petraeus became god and lord protector but the city was practically destroyed. Not sure but I think he might have compared it to the raid of the Mongols 800 years ago.

UN and Iraqi doctors report that cancer rate after the operation was higher than that of Hiroshima - high use of depleted uranium. Birth defects off the scale. etc. etc.

Then there's the returned vets physically or psychologically injured. Some US estimate put that cost in the trillions for just two wars alone. But then the US tend not to do much to take care of their returned vets so maybe that's somebody else's problem.

Pretty senseless. Could just hand the Iraqis half the financial costs so far and we'd all have peace, friends and oil we want from them.

But then the cost of war are paid for by the taxpayers, the soldiers are mainly from poor families, and profits goes to the top soooo I guess it make a lot of sense.

Very different from carpet bombing or dropping a nuke, and answers the question above about whether soldiers still fight in he ground

 

[moXJO]

Having a few state issues guns collecting dust in the cupboard until you go along once a year, collect your 50 state issued rounds, have a shoot then go home for another 12 months with an unloaded rifle is nothing like the USA culture

Yeah we agree.The culture is different but the guns are the same. Access to ammo isn't that hard to get yet no massacres at schools in Switzerland. So yes its a cultural thing.

My issue is calling for bans won't work.
It has to be done in such a way that the public will accept it. Otherwise another decade rolls on. If they start education early enough now, dribble in regulation then "Rambo culture" starts getting bred out.

The major difference with the swiss is that the can afford it. US has too many poor areas and low IQ mental cases. Don't let the crazies have guns.

US is a massive shithole in reality. It was a real crumbling empire when I was there. Prisons are full, heaps of homeless. You wonder how long its going to last as top dog.

 

[moXJO]

.



Not sure if the recent flare up across most of the world are the result of poorer quality strategists or declining economic power and influence, or a bit of both.

But yea, you know your grip is losing when colonies are either in flame or not taking order as swiftly as they used to.

Take South Korea. Trying to ask why certain defensive systems are imported into their country, for their own security. Grudgingly going along with war games while trying to talk peace and hold hands with their number one enemy... not putting enough troops and ships behind its obligation to enforce your sanctions that you're planning to send your own "coast guard" over.

It will be the rise of the asians and goodbye whitey from this neck of the woods imo. Give it a decade or two.

 

[Value Collector]

Yeah we agree.The culture is different but the guns are the same. Access to ammo isn't that hard to get yet no massacres at schools in Switzerland. So yes its a cultural thing.

My issue is calling for bans won't work.
It has to be done in such a way that the public will accept it. Otherwise another decade rolls on. If they start education early enough now, dribble in regulation then "Rambo culture" starts getting bred out.

The major difference with the swiss is that the can afford it. US has too many poor areas and low IQ mental cases. Don't let the crazies have guns.

US is a massive shithole in reality. It was a real crumbling empire when I was there. Prisons are full, heaps of homeless. You wonder how long its going to last as top dog.

I disagree bans would work, give “Rambo” a bolt action with a 6 round magazine and he is not going to kill as many people as he did in Las Vegas

 

[moXJO]

I disagree bans would work, give “Rambo” a bolt action with a 6 round magazine and he is not going to kill as many people as he did in Las Vegas

It won't because there are already so many guns in circulation. And how long will it be upheld.
It ain't happening anytime soon without culture change first.

 

[IFocus]

The issue is run by a gun club, weaken the NRA (the kids could do this) and then you will have change.

 

[basilio]

Sarah Chadwick// #NEVERAGAIN ✔ @sarahchad_


We should change the names of AR-15s to “Marco Rubio” because they are so easy to buy.

 

[SirRumpole]

Some companies are cutting ties with the NRA.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-02-25/companies-abandon-nra-in-wake-of-florida-shooting/9482536

 

[Junior]

No quick fix....so many guns in circulation and pollies in fear of a voter backlash.

Stop selling automatic weapons and do stringent background checks on new purchases, that would be a start at least!

 

[SirRumpole]

No quick fix....so many guns in circulation and pollies in fear of a voter backlash.

Stop selling automatic weapons and do stringent background checks on new purchases, that would be a start at least!

Does anyone know if you have to register guns in the US, or can you just go to a dealer and buy one over the counter ? Is there a database saying who owns what ? That would seem a pretty basic administrative requirement.