QANTAS Grounds all Flights

[Whiskers]

So you admit that the FWA is biased against management,
and any ruling they make against Qantas will be shonky.

No, but if that was the case, Joyce was folly for proceeding as he did.

 

[noco]

Holy hell, who would want to be a baggage handler with the conditions they have to work under.

POOR BUGGERS. You have to feel sorry for them. You would wonder how they could survive on those wages and conditions.



http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...omments/qantas_grounded_gillard_needs_to_fly/

 

[sails]

It looks like Gillard has goofed again.

If this woman had made as many mistakes in private enterprise, she would have been scaked months ago.


http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...already_had_the_government_used_its_own_laws/

And this is what Abbott said about Section 431 of the Fair Work Act:

Opposition Leader Tony Abbott said the government had the power to bring a swift end to the dispute.

"The prime minister says she wants the industrial action to be over," Mr Abbott told reporters in Canberra on Sunday.

"She can end it if she's prepared to use the powers available to the government under section 431 of the Fair Work Act, and I call upon her to do so immediately."

If the government acted under section 431 it must prove there is a significant economic damage.

Read more: DISPUTE GOES TO LABOUR TRIBUNAL

 

[Whiskers]

It looks like Gillard has goofed again.

If this woman had made as many mistakes in private enterprise, she would have been scaked months ago.


http://blogs.news.com.au/couriermai...already_had_the_government_used_its_own_laws/

I don't see a big issue with applying under s240 instead of s431. At least it eliminates any perception of politicial bias.

But I am seeing a problem with Joyces stand down decision.

Division 2””Circumstances allowing stand down


524 Employer may stand down employees in certain
circumstances

(1) An employer may, under this subsection, stand down an employee during a period in which the employee cannot usefully be employed because of one of the following circumstances:

(a) industrial action (other than industrial action organised or engaged in by the employer);

(b) a breakdown of machinery or equipment, if the employer cannot reasonably be held responsible for the breakdown;
​

(c) a stoppage of work for any cause for which the employer cannot reasonably be held responsible.
​

http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/legislation/fw_act/FW_Act-02.htm#P7101_655085

 

[Macquack]

I agree with Peter Reith. There is no place for government intervention in industrial disputes, especially a Labor Government.

Peter Reith must be suffering from dementia if he fails to remember his role in the 1998 Australian Waterfront Dispute.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_Australian_waterfront_dispute

 

[sails]

Here is a 20 page PDF to the Log of Claims for a Qantas Group – TWU Fair Work Agreement:

http://www.twu.com.au/Home/Campaign...tas/Draft-Qantas-Log-of-Claims-TWU-v5-3-8-11/

 

[drsmith]

It gets more interesting by the minute.

Qantas sources confirmed yesterday Mr Joyce waited until five minutes before his decision to ground the fleet to hear from Ms Gillard, after attempting to contact her three hours earlier.

It is understood that all it would have taken for Qantas to cancel the grounding was for Ms Gillard to declare all future industrial action illegal.

But not only did Ms Gillard not take Mr Joyce's call, she did not return it and still had not spoken to him as of yesterday afternoon.

http://www.news.com.au/national/qan...-but-was-ignored/story-e6frfkvr-1226180983230

 

[Calliope]

But I am seeing a problem with Joyces stand down decision.

Of course you do, but then your opinions are "clouded " by your hatred of Joyce. A bias you share by the way with the airline unions. You think he should have caved into the unions. That would have been stupidity of monumental proportions. Appeasement of extortionists is never the way to go. They always come back for more.

 

[Smurf1976]

The bottom line for me personally is simply this. Qantas has a lot more problems than their main domestic competitor, Virgin.

We are forever hearing of mechanical problems with Qantas flights and near misses. Virgin carries roughly half as many passengers with perhaps 1% as many problems.

The domestic route I most commonly fly is not offered as a direct flight. I can however book a connecting flight with Virgin which makes it all very simple. Or I could book two separate flights with Qantas / Jetstar, have to re-check my bags along the way, and risk being left stranded should the first flight be late and I make it to the Jetstar counter 29 minutes before the flight takes off.

Jetstar has a shocking reputation for cancelling flights for non-technical reasons. Virgin has a far better reputation in this regard.

Qantas and Jetstar are effectively the same thing. I could book with Qantas and end up flying Jetstar and, worse still, subject to Jetstar terms and conditions as a result. No such problems with Virgin.

You get the picture. Qantas works fine for many people that I would agree, but for me the odds are it ends up being a Jetstar flight anyway and they are simply an pain in the proverbial. It's far easier, more reliable and about the same cost to fly Virgin instead so that's what I do.

So who's to blame? Is it the unions or is it management? A few questions:

1. Who decided to create Jetstar, give it a shocking reputation, and then attach that same reputation to Qantas through sharing of flights and in some cases outright replacing former Qantas flights with Jetstar? Was that a union decision? Or was that a management decision?

2. Who decided to not upgrade the fleet, thus leaving Qantas with bits falling off planes and incident after incident? Was this unions? Or was this a management decision?

3. Who decided to ground flights during the volcanic ash issue when there was the alternative option, at significantly higher financial cost to the airline, of simply flying lower or longer routes? This helped kill Qantas for high yield business travellers more concerned with reliability than cost. Did the unions take this action? Or was it a management decision?

As with most business declines, this situation is the result of a series of blunders over a rather long period. At a guess, Qantas management became complacent following the demise of Ansett and thinking that Virgin with their cheap fares and cheap service would only ever appeal to low yield holiday travellers. It then becomes the classic "hare and the tortoise" scenario with Qantas management asleep whilst their competitor figured out how to appeal to a much broader range of travellers, including those willing to pay higher fares.

The situation now is precisely what Qantas would logically be hoping to avoid. You don't have to fly Virgin too many times to realise that they have been pushing the "give us a go" line for a while now, seeking to dispel the notion that they are a "cheap" carrier. And now Qantas has forced anyone with a real need to travel, and that will no doubt include many busines travellers, to do exactly that. Give the competition a go.

Personally, I wouldn't pay a manager $5 million to send customers to the competition. I do understand that Qantas has issues with the viability of international operations but shutting down domestic flights was a serious mistake in my opinion.

 

[tinhat]

Fair Work Australia has terminated all industrial action. Parties have twenty one days to reach agreement otherwise the matters will be arbitrated by FWA. This is the outcome QANTAS wanted and also the outcome the federal government sought in taking this to FWA.

QANTAS should be back in the air within 24 hours, subject to CASA approval.

 

[kavla1970]

Yeh pretty simple maths to me. If Pay Raises < ongoing dispute costs, simply give them the raise and be done with it. Joyce got a raise this year, why shouldn't his staff?

I have always felt that Managers should lead by example. I recall many times how senior management (in my past life...now I run my own business) used to pay themselves a heap each year but argue to those 'lower' than them that the company couldn't afford pay rises. Well yeah! After they got paid, it couldn't!

Joyce should not have asked a for $2 million dollar payrise and then cry the company is stuggling.

 

[kavla1970]

It gets more interesting by the minute.





http://www.news.com.au/national/qan...-but-was-ignored/story-e6frfkvr-1226180983230

Ok, the media is going to go after the PM now....

The one person struggling to manage an airline is ringing the other struggling to run the country.

 

[kavla1970]

Ok, the media is going to go after the PM now....

The one person struggling to manage an airline is ringing the other struggling to run the country.

I have to add I don't blame Gillard for this mess. The CEO is running this little serfdom and he should know how to manage.

 

[moXJO]

With the current IR laws will only see more of this type of action imo. FWA is a joke and a lot of business is feeling the pain because of this mobs incompetency. All linked to a government that did its deals to get in power and is now in the process of paying them off.
The Qantas issue is one small battle in a larger looming IR war.

 

[nulla nulla]

I have to add I don't blame Gillard for this mess. The CEO is running this little serfdom and he should know how to manage.

It now appears that the media beat up about Gillard not returning Joyce's telephone calls is false and Qantas are expected to confirm this today.

 

[Calliope]

It now appears that the media beat up about Gillard not returning Joyce's telephone calls is false and Qantas are expected to confirm this today.

But, of course we all know Gillard is a liar. This is merely semantics.

The decision to terminate the dispute in favor of management goes against the grain of everything Gillard's unionised cabinet and FWA stand for. But of course they had no choice. They were wedged and outsmarted by Joyce. To merely suspend would have been a disaster. Shorten and Gillard are claiming the decision as a win.

This is because the FWA is holding the trump card for itself of arbitrating in two weeks time if the parties cannot agree. Naturally FWA will arbitrate in the unions' favor, and that's when the sh*t will really hit the fan.

 

[Whiskers]

Fair Work Australia has terminated all industrial action. Parties have twenty one days to reach agreement otherwise the matters will be arbitrated by FWA. This is the outcome QANTAS wanted and also the outcome the federal government sought in taking this to FWA.

QANTAS should be back in the air within 24 hours, subject to CASA approval.

Not quite right!

Qantas wanted a permenant termination of all industrial action and a conclusion to the dispute, via some agreed or FWA ruling.

The circumstances giving rise to the termination order was weighted much more heavily toward the 'protected' industrial action taken by Qantas, ie the lockout and consequential grounding of the fleet, than the union action.

At this stage there seems to be an order for termination of all industrial for 21 days with an extension of another 21 days if both parties agree progress is being made.

I cannot see any indication of an automatic determination by FWA of all the matters in the dispute if no resolution is not made within 21 days or any extension.

http://www.fwa.gov.au/decisionssigned/html/2011fwafb7444.htm

 

[Whiskers]

As with most business declines, this situation is the result of a series of blunders over a rather long period. At a guess, Qantas management became complacent following the demise of Ansett and thinking that Virgin with their cheap fares and cheap service would only ever appeal to low yield holiday travellers. It then becomes the classic "hare and the tortoise" scenario with Qantas management asleep whilst their competitor figured out how to appeal to a much broader range of travellers, including those willing to pay higher fares.



Personally, I wouldn't pay a manager $5 million to send customers to the competition. I do understand that Qantas has issues with the viability of international operations but shutting down domestic flights was a serious mistake in my opinion.

Two very profound paragraphs in my opinion.

 

[Calliope]

Not quite right!

Sorry Whiskers...you backed the wrong horse. Better luck tomorrow.

 

[Whiskers]

Sorry Whiskers...you backed the wrong horse. Better luck tomorrow.

You're trolling again Calliope.