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Tony Abbott for PM

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Calliope said:
Well don't look.



And you leader Bob Brown does? Give us a break.:rolleyes:
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I like to see the evolution, here,

and Bob saved the trees in Tassie and the axemen will enjoy their new jobs in tune with nature much more,

Will probably save Julia for awhile yet too. And they do have thier growing support base so will probably double thier Senate numbers at the next election and gain a couple of more in the lower house. The right, and that includes the ALP are so busy chucking stones all over the place that they have lost the ability to stack them.

Soooooo,,,,, it may be best for some to go away. However we would exclude no one, and as here on ASF you are free to speak and act as you please. In a courteous manner of course. :rolleyes:

:):)
 
Calliope said:
Well don't look.



And you leader Bob Brown does? Give us a break.:rolleyes:
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Mr Brown embarrassed himself in his interview with Chris Urhlman on "7.30" this evening.
The Greens rhetoric comes completely unstuck when faced with some genuine questions.
 
IFocus said:
Abbott looks the other way and can only say no........apparently plain packaging wont have an affect.

Abbott wavers, and eyes light up in tobacco-land

Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/abbo...tobaccoland-20110517-1erjq.html#ixzz1MfcAs87a
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I think Abbott has got it right and Gillard and Co have it wrong. Any smokers to whom I have spoken about this say it won't make the slightest difference to their usage. And those who serve smokes are going to have a lot more problem trying to identify which brand they are selling.

People don't smoke because of the packaging, they smoke for the addictive nicotine.

If they are addicted (which most are), they are buying what is in the package, not because of the colour or any gross pictures on that package. The desperation for another smoke is all that matters and if they have to wait, they often get the shakes.

How on earth anyone with half a brain can think that changing the packaging or even putting up the price will stop people smoking. They clearly have no idea what it is like to be addicted.

I don't smoke, but unfortunately, I have seen this addiction in a couple of my kids.

I wish smokes were banned, but realise it would do no good. They would simply be sold on the black market such as marijuana and other damaging drugs.
 
And don't forget, IFocus, that Rudd increased the amount of tax on smokes by about 25%.

So, it's alright for the labor government to be raking in the money from smokes and using it for trips around the world to see the Queen and all sorts of other wasteful spendings?
 
sails said:
I think Abbott has got it right and Gillard and Co have it wrong. Any smokers to whom I have spoken about this say it won't make the slightest difference to their usage. And those who serve smokes are going to have a lot more problem trying to identify which brand they are selling.

People don't smoke because of the packaging, they smoke for the addictive nicotine.

If they are addicted (which most are), they are buying what is in the package, not because of the colour or any gross pictures on that package. The desperation for another smoke is all that matters and if they have to wait, they often get the shakes.

How on earth anyone with half a brain can think that changing the packaging or even putting up the price will stop people smoking. They clearly have no idea what it is like to be addicted.

I don't smoke, but unfortunately, I have seen this addiction in a couple of my kids.

I wish smokes were banned, but realise it would do no good. They would simply be sold on the black market such as marijuana and other damaging drugs.
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Sails,
Don’t you think it is worthwhile trying to help people from becoming nicotine addicted in the first place? Certainly nicotine addiction is what makes it very hard for people to give up smoking, but smokers weren’t nicotine addicted when they had their first cigarettes.

It seems to me the marketing and packaging of cigarettes has always been aimed at younger people with the purpose of getting them try the brand. Maybe this would be the first cigarette they ever had and the start of the road to nicotine addiction. If plain packaging reduces this initial appeal, surely it is a good thing?

I think there must be more to this story than what we’ve seen. Tony Abbot is a great role model for a healthy lifestyle and I’m sure his natural position would be to oppose smoking.
 
Ferret said:
Sails,
Don’t you think it is worthwhile trying to help people from becoming nicotine addicted in the first place? Certainly nicotine addiction is what makes it very hard for people to give up smoking, but smokers weren’t nicotine addicted when they had their first cigarettes.

It seems to me the marketing and packaging of cigarettes has always been aimed at younger people with the purpose of getting them try the brand. Maybe this would be the first cigarette they ever had and the start of the road to nicotine addiction. If plain packaging reduces this initial appeal, surely it is a good thing?

I think there must be more to this story than what we’ve seen. Tony Abbot is a great role model for a healthy lifestyle and I’m sure his natural position would be to oppose smoking.
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Ferret, absolutely in agreement to deter young people from smoking and drugs (and sex for the young ones). Both my kids who got into smoking started at school. I doubt very much that the packaging had anything whatsoever to do with it - it starts off as peer pressure. Wanting to be accepted, etc. It's being seen with the cigarette the same as the others. Absolutely nothing to do with the packaging. This has to be another seemingly stupid hare brained idea from a PM who has no kids and has no idea what happens in real life when teenagers socialise.

If changing the packaging would magically take away the peer pressure, then yes, it would be a fantastic idea. However, Gillard and Co are off with the fairies on this issue (and many others..lol) and Abbott seems to be more aware that changing the packaging is something that might look like a good political stunt but, in reality, probably won't do a thing to stop kids starting in the first place and certainly won't stop those who have become addicted.

With both my kids who ended up addicted, they didn't come and tell me they had started to smoke as I had taught them to stay clear of any addictive substances. When I found out, I pleaded with them to stop before they became seriously addicted, but to no avail. They would smoke outside the school gates and when on social activities well out of my knowledge.

I agree that Abbott is a great role model for the young ones, but also think he is being realistic to state that the packaging isn't the cause of the problem.

Ferret, how do you suggest tackling the peer pressure that is probably the biggest culprit? Lock them up until they turn 25...lol?
 
sails said:
I think Abbott has got it right How on earth anyone with half a brain can think that changing the packaging or even putting up the price will stop people smoking. They clearly have no idea what it is like to be addicted.

I don't smoke, but unfortunately, I have seen this addiction in a couple of my kids.

I wish smokes were banned, but realise it would do no good. They would simply be sold on the black market such as marijuana and other damaging drugs.
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I began to smoke at 14 and did so for 40 years. I am smoke free now but it took many years for me to beat the psychological hold that it does have. I identified one of my problems was that my Farther, who had had a very sad life, whenever he rolled a smoke and lit up he appeared contented and it put a smile on his face. Boys in particular emulate their Dad. To beat it I had some counselling and also read a book "Give up Smoking the easy way" by Allan Carr. He was a very bad smoker too but beat it by the use of psychology. You have to get rid of the imprint in the mind. If you just read through this book and keep smoking the feeling for a smoke just disappears after turning the last page. I have brought copies for freinds with 100% success. Maybe it is in the ASF bookshop link, get your mate a copy as a present. If any of you did management courses there was one called "Investement in Excellence" found it very moving but it was about imprinting to remove bad habits by repacing them with new positive ones over the top or if you like reshaping yourself.

Back to cigarette packets, remember Marlborouh's, lovely red shoulders, just like a tall strong man in clean white trousers, used the logos on the racing cars too.

I can tell you from experience that the packaging has a huge effect on imprinting and says to the mind "smoking is good, join the real men".

It is also worth reading up on the theory from the psycho/philosophers, Carl Jung, Michael Foucault and some Freud too. Would make a good phd thesis for some bright spark. Visual symbols are very powerful when repeated. Less young people will take it on without labels in my view.

Abbott just keps flowing on with the wind and has not an original thought in his head. And of course if the press continue to say something is bad it will imprint entire parts of the community. A sociologist told me many years ago now that its the spin doctors for the big people who run the world, how right he seems to be. Think about the recent Royal weddding, all the youung lads in that crowd will be ready to fight for their country one day whatever the cause. Imprinting, indoctrination mind control. Its time to wake up, we are being had.

However on the smokes I am sure to be dusted down as no doubt the cigarette lobby will be around ASF too.

:2twocents
 
The more you resrict something the more the masses want it. Prohibition did not work. Ciggies will be the same. Teenagers rebelling will smoke. Peer group pressure to smoke etc etc.

Education is the key. Films have stopped showing smoking as an attractive pastime. I watched an old black and white movie and the whole ochestra was lighting up. LOL.

Now it is only the bad guys who smoke. Negative impact. Some people like it some don't. I smoke cigarettes and have done so for 28 years. It is starting to effect my health as I can no longer run 5 kms at full speed nor freedive 20 metres. Must be getting old ;)

Tony Abbott eh ??? He has them on the run IMO. Opinion Polls are in agreeance too !
 
sails said:
Ferret, absolutely in agreement to deter young people from smoking and drugs (and sex for the young ones). Both my kids who got into smoking started at school. I doubt very much that the packaging had anything whatsoever to do with it - it starts off as peer pressure. Wanting to be accepted, etc. It's being seen with the cigarette the same as the others. Absolutely nothing to do with the packaging. This has to be another seemingly stupid hare brained idea from a PM who has no kids and has no idea what happens in real life when teenagers socialise.
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While I don't really care one way or the other, imo making the tobacco companies use plain packaging can't be a bad thing, it definitely won't make anyone take up smoking but it might stop a few from starting. Also the big tobacco companies seem to be pretty strong in their opposition of it so that tells me that they are a little worried about it. And if packaging doesn't help these companies sell their product why do they spend so much time & money on it?
 
Sails,

Agree that peer pressure is the main reason for kids to try smoking. Smoking appeals as cool, rebellious etc. The packaging may or may not contribute to the appeal. My feeling is packaging does influence the appeal, particularly to a young person, but we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one.

However, even if plain packaging didn’t diminish the appeal, I can’t accept that it would make smoking more attractive. It might prevent some kids from becoming addicted to nicotine or it might have no effect, so what is the down side?
 
Ferret said:
Sails,

Agree that peer pressure is the main reason for kids to try smoking. Smoking appeals as cool, rebellious etc. The packaging may or may not contribute to the appeal. My feeling is packaging does influence the appeal, particularly to a young person, but we’ll have to agree to disagree on that one.

However, even if plain packaging didn’t diminish the appeal, I can’t accept that it would make smoking more attractive. It might prevent some kids from becoming addicted to nicotine or it might have no effect, so what is the down side?
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No problem with giving it a try - but it will be interesting to see if it actually achieves a thing in prevention or helping people reduce smoking.

I also wonder if marijuana use possibly has more appeal to the young ones and yet is is an illegal substance. It is apparently very damaging to the developing brain and highly addictive.
 
sails said:
No problem with giving it a try - but it will be interesting to see if it actually achieves a thing in prevention or helping people reduce smoking.
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Big tobacco are screaming against it sure sign its a winner, plenty of studies that show the product packaging has a huge influence.

The real issue around this isn't so much the current smokers but the next generation, kids and teens are extremely brand conscious.

Lets face it big tobacco have a very long history of being a bunch of real bastards.

Abbotts problem is the Liberals receive party donations from big tobacco its a bad look and poor leadership on his part.
 
IFocus said:
Its been fascinating to watch the spin doctors move from the government to Abbottliars camp and clearly the media has now joined Abbottliars band wagon.

The budget media commentary or lack of real questions of Abbottliars contradictory attacks has been illuminating.

Abbottliar will become PM....looking forward to more 3 worded slogans...only the brave and forthright hill billy Barnaby can save Australia.
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What about Catter? He seems forthright in his views. (Says what he means, and means what he says). I'm sure he'd be willing to try his hand at rescuing our economy. At least you'll always know where you stand with him - he'll tell it to you straight, no b.s. and no lies (God bless him).

Much as I'm glad to see that you still hold some hope for the salvation of Australia, I fear that a certain "Government" has been just a little too efficient at transmuting a healthy trade surplus into a deficit whilst at the same time managing to exhaust the public coffers and run up billions of dollars of debt.

Some of my friends expressed dismay and actually cursed said government claiming that it was incompetent.

But not to worry!

I instantly leapt to the government's defence by pointing out that it takes an enormous amount of talent to be able to reverse the fortunes of a once prosperous nation (such as Australia), in such an incredibly short period of time.

On the subject of spin doctor slogans, they used to be a lot wordier (and consequently funnier - although a little harder to remember).

I always found slogans such as:

"the only people against it are those who have something to hide"

and

"by (insert year here) no Australian child will be living in poverty" somewhat entertaining.

Oh, and I mustn't forget, the slogan that trumps them all, the age old timeless classic

"the recession we had to have".
 
Ferret said:
However, even if plain packaging didn’t diminish the appeal, I can’t accept that it would make smoking more attractive. It might prevent some kids from becoming addicted to nicotine or it might have no effect, so what is the down side?
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Potential downside is that, without packaging to differentiate the product of one manufacturer over another, a price war will ensue, this perhaps increasing the likelihood of people increasing their level of smoking rather than reducing it.

I think the whole idea is just another example of this pathetic government trying to be seen to be doing something.
The likelihood that the change of packaging will make any difference to anyone's consumption of nicotine is imo minimal.
 
cynic said:
Oh, and I mustn't forget, the slogan that trumps them all, the age old timeless classic

"the recession we had to have".
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As much as I do hate slogans, since most of them are gibberish, this one is actually not that bad. A recession is the (painful) period of economic restructuring following a period of malinvestment. Generally, counter-intuitive as it may seem, it is best to let this happen. Whenever the government gets involved it inevitable interferes with the restructuring process, either inflating a new false boom or causing economic stagnation.
As much as the likes of Swan like to think that a recession following a boom can be staved off by paying one set of men to dig ditches, and another to fill them, 'tis delusional.
 
Julia said:
Potential downside is that, without packaging to differentiate the product of one manufacturer over another, a price war will ensue, this perhaps increasing the likelihood of people increasing their level of smoking rather than reducing it.
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Unlikely, imo. The manufacturers wouldn't drop their prices unless they were seeing a drop in volumes. If they are seeing a drop in volumes, then plain packaging has worked.
 
Julia said:
Potential downside is that, without packaging to differentiate the product of one manufacturer over another, a price war will ensue, this perhaps increasing the likelihood of people increasing their level of smoking rather than reducing it.

I think the whole idea is just another example of this pathetic government trying to be seen to be doing something.
The likelihood that the change of packaging will make any difference to anyone's consumption of nicotine is imo minimal.
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Julia, agree with the idea that a price war could actually increase smoking. Not good.

I also think it is possible this whole thing is to distract the public from other issues such as asylum seeker trading (1:5), the pathetic budget and Abbott's heartening reply. Ms Gillard must be desperate to lift herself and labor in the polls, so anything is possible.

And, I still seriously question how much it will prevent the younger teens from smoking. They are not old enough to buy their own, so will either nick some from smoking parents or will buy a few fags from an older student. In either case, packaging would be irrelevant.
 
The kids can get their hands on anything, right there in the schoolyard. A story this morning, in the US they're passing Ritalin around like lollies. I doubt much of this comes in alluring packaging.

Not a smoker and loath it. But as nicotine is attacked, we'll probably just see product substitution. The kids can move to little pills and a bottle of Jim Beam, which custom requires upon completion must be smashed on the pavement.
 
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