Raise the legal drinking age to 21?

[Smurf1976]

I should add to all my previous comments that whilst I accept that teenagers are going to keep getting smashed on alcohol, or alternatively illegal drugs, I do find that situation an unfortunate one.

I can only wonder what's going to happen to all these brain fried, sick (physically) individuals in the years ahead - if nothing else it will surely send the health system broke.

I've never been a particularly athletic or physically fit person and unfortunately it does seem to be at least partly genetic. The sad part though is to realise that I'm now fitter and healthier than the majority of people I see, and yet I've never actually been inside a gym and don't play sport. Yes, I'm thinking that I should get fitter (and I'm going for a run most days now...) but as a society we seem headed toward an awful lot of fried brains, wrecked livers and heart attacks.

We have more medical knowledge than ever and yet we seem incapable of putting it to preventative use. What, exactly, is going to happen to all those 20 something people that drink to ridiculous levels, do no exercise and live on take away food? There's an awful lot of them so it's an important question. Surely it can't end well and I'm thinking the problems will start in their 40's or even 30's rather than being decades away. So sad...

 

[Julia]

Perhaps the problem is kids not having much to do, or not being allowed to do anything, so drinking becomes rebellious in nature, as it is one of the few things they are now allowed to still do in this nanny state of ours.

Just recently someone successfully sued a school for an injury sustained during school sports. What incentive is there for anyone (even parents) to encourage their kids to go out and seek other (non alcohol) forms of excitement?

I completely agree with this. The level of litigation in our society has become farcical and is only matched by the bizarre restrictions and laws of an ever larger nanny state.
This is slightly off topic, but today the Qld government announced that if you park your car and move away more than 5 metres from it without locking it, you will be fined $40! Soon we will have to ask permission to draw breath.

(hence why all the baby boomers that are now trying to ban everything took a heap of LSD in their time

Can you substantiate this allegation? Even provide a few examples?

Why in a discussion like this, do we have to resort to these silly generalities about any particular generation?

As a baby boomer, and someone with many friends also baby boomers, over many years, none of us have ever used LSD, and none of us want to ban anything. (Well, except perhaps people who make rabid generalisations.)

I just think what is good for the goose should be good for the gander. Why can a drug like smokes and grog be legal despite the huge known health risks, when there ARE other much safer drugs that remain illegal. Either ban it all, or legalise it all imo

On this reasoning, presumably you would also recommend the legalisation of heroin and ice e.g.? And extend morphine et al onto supermarket shelves along with the paracetomol?
So we could all happily be addicted on the PBS?
(I assume you're suggesting these would be TGA approved ?)
Would you like to see these approved for the PBS and funded by the taxpayer?

 

[Smurf1976]

For instance due to media beat ups propogated through mass media mediums such as the TV and Newspaper I bet every person who lives in Brisbane sincerly believes that after about 10pm on a Friday and Saturday night Fortitude Valley (Brisbane's Clubbing District) cessates into a bloody, degenerated cess pool of belam where rapes, fights, stabbings, abuse and sex run rampant and uncontrolled by the cities unwhelmed number of police and ambulance officers.

There can be no good outcome through this stigma that has now entrenched itself with in Brisbane and im sure every other clubbing district of every city in Australia - and it serves no purpose other than to spruke up the media ratings and mislead and deceive the unmoderated and generally unimformed public to believing that destroying our civil liberties further is the only way to reach an effective and sustainable outcome.

Same everywhere from Queensland to Tasmania to Western Australia.

I'd have to say though that whilst there is certainly some media hype, the overall clubbing scene is a lot more violent than it used to be some years ago. People got drunk and made a noise and threw up in surrounding streets back then whereas now it's "glassings" and knives.

It's an issue I became quite involved with 4 years ago amidst the extensively debated demise of Club Surreal (Hobart) and I've obtained and recorded a lot of opinions as well as doing plenty of my own research into it all. What I would say in summary is:

1. Lack of legal consequences and the rise of "smart" lawyers has given rise to an entire generation with no fear of being caught breaking the law (just about any law) and a consqeuent lack of respect generally. That is the single biggest issue by far and the almost universal explanation for the problems given by those aged 18 - 25.

2. The uncertainty over planning regulations has lead nightclub operators to adopt a "get in, get out" mentality that puts short term profits ahead of long term viability. They have no incentive to maintain a reputation and their liquor license when there's a real risk of them being shut down through no fault of their own due to planning law changes, whinging residents in newly built flats etc. The significance of that issue varies between cities and states.

3. The growth of pills, at the expense of alcohol, undermines the entire business model thus reinforcing the attitudes from operators in point 2 above. Get in, make money and get out because there doesn't seem too much of a future in this industry anyway.

The end result of this is a mentality of opeators doing everything as cheaply as possible and pursuing maximum revenue and to hell with the consequences. Meanwhile the customers also don't give a damn and have little if any respect for anyone or anything. Put those together and it's a virtual guarantee of trouble that should come as no surprise.

 

[GumbyLearner]

I'm all for it as long as the Governor-General ups the Conscription age under the Defence Act from 18 to 21.

 

[prawn_86]

Can you substantiate this allegation? Even provide a few examples?

Why in a discussion like this, do we have to resort to these silly generalities about any particular generation?

As a baby boomer, and someone with many friends also baby boomers, over many years, none of us have ever used LSD, and none of us want to ban anything. (Well, except perhaps people who make rabid generalisations.)

My apologies for the generalisation, it annoys me when people stereotype also, i guess this is just a topic i am passionate about, so i overstepped my own line.

I cant provide any specific examples, but i would be very surprised if every lawmaker or politician out there has never tried an illegal substance in their life. Even Obama has admitted that he used to have cocaine occasionally in college.

On this reasoning, presumably you would also recommend the legalisation of heroin and ice e.g.? And extend morphine et al onto supermarket shelves along with the paracetomol?
So we could all happily be addicted on the PBS?
(I assume you're suggesting these would be TGA approved ?)
Would you like to see these approved for the PBS and funded by the taxpayer?

Two ways you could do things:
1. Make current illicit drugs non PBS but legalised, same as cigarettes or alcohol.
2. Have a national database in chemists, with drugs able to be purchased OTC but only a set amount per period per person. However this may encourage experimentation in other drugs when their quota of choice has ran out, so may not be a good idea.

As someone mentioned previously, heroin/morphine is very well understood by the medical and scientfic community, as is MDMA. I cant comment on Ice, as i know nothing about it, but the violence of ice users is a worrying trend, although im not sure how much of that is due to bad cuts, or the active substance itself.

As i said, it should be all or nothing.

 

[Happy]

Probably mentioned already:

Why make new age restrictions, uphold the current ones first!

 

[Smurf1976]

As someone mentioned previously, heroin/morphine is very well understood by the medical and scientfic community, as is MDMA. I cant comment on Ice, as i know nothing about it, but the violence of ice users is a worrying trend, although im not sure how much of that is due to bad cuts, or the active substance itself.

As i said, it should be all or nothing.

Emphasis mine.

So you're saying that it should be all or nothing whilst at the same time noting the issue of violence amongst ice users. I've never, ever seen someone start a fight because they'd smoked a (tobacco) cigarette. Smoking isn't good for you, we all know that, but it doesn't cause people to start throwing punches.

If I see someone smoking on the street then I can always cross the road or hold my breath as I walk past. A nuisance at most. But how can I identify someone under the influence of ice and avoid becoming a potential victim of violence? I can't find a way to do that other than not being on the street in the first place, a situation that makes ice far worse than cigarettes in that regard.

And I get back to the point I've often made - WHY didn't we have these problems on the same scale 20 years ago? All that has really changed is the loss of respect for the law and the rise of drug use. One of those would seem to be responsible for the situation...

 

[explod]

I'm all for it as long as the Governor-General ups the Conscription age under the Defence Act from 18 to 21.

It should be scrapped altogether. We are supposed to be equal thinking human beings. (remember the book "animal farm", some animals are more equal than others My Grandmother, born 1880, lost her first husband in the great war, she often said, "the youth are but cannon fodder for those behind the guvmint". (she did not know the word govmint, but you get the drift.)

Rothchilds financed both sides in the first war and they are still behind world finance today.

My recommendation, do a bit of reading and think for yourself

 

[awg]

If I see someone smoking on the street then I can always cross the road or hold my breath as I walk past. A nuisance at most. But how can I identify someone under the influence of ice and avoid becoming a potential victim of violence? I can't find a way to do that other than not being on the street in the first place, a situation that makes ice far worse than cigarettes in that regard.
.

They will be the ones muttering to themselves, picking their scabs and with their limbs jerking like clowns.

You definitely should cross the road when you suspect someone is iced!

One of these cranked up fools decided to get into a verbal abuse scene with the family of one of the boys in my sons footy team one fine Saturday morning.

Didnt seem to bother him that the father was a 120kg outlaw motorcycle club official:enforcer:

( and the mother has the foulest mouth I have ever heard on any woman:chainsaw:

 

[Julia]

Two ways you could do things:
1. Make current illicit drugs non PBS but legalised, same as cigarettes or alcohol.
2. Have a national database in chemists, with drugs able to be purchased OTC but only a set amount per period per person. However this may encourage experimentation in other drugs when their quota of choice has ran out, so may not be a good idea.

I doubt chemists would be too thrilled with having to supply heroin and morphine addicts. How would you cope with the fact that these drugs (I don't know about MDMA) produce dependence so rapidly and with it increased tolerance, so that ever increasing quantities are required just merely to stave off withdrawal syndrome?

Are you suggesting that by legalising given quantities per person via pharmacies, this would eliminate the black market? I doubt it very much.

So effectively all you'd achieve would be to make these drugs legally available to a wider range of people who could just go in to pick up their blood pressure medication, and say "oh and I'll have a couple of grams of heroin while I'm here, thanks".

Do you think this would benefit our overall community, i.e. to have people who would never seek out an illicit drug, happily purchasing these because they legally can, probably liking the effects, and whacko you have a whole new raft of addicts.

 

[Tink]

I agree Julia

We have enough trouble with just alcohol and cigarettes, imagine adding more to the list health wise.

As for everyone trying it Prawn, I agree, thats generalizing. There are plenty that did none of it, be it Baby Boomers or Gen X's or any other Gen's

 

[Tink]

The end result of this is a mentality of opeators doing everything as cheaply as possible and pursuing maximum revenue and to hell with the consequences. Meanwhile the customers also don't give a damn and have little if any respect for anyone or anything. Put those together and it's a virtual guarantee of trouble that should come as no surprise.

I agree with this.

 

[prawn_86]

I certainly dont have all the answers, but i am enjoying this good intellectual debate.

And I get back to the point I've often made - WHY didn't we have these problems on the same scale 20 years ago? All that has really changed is the loss of respect for the law and the rise of drug use. One of those would seem to be responsible for the situation...

The point i first made, was:
Is the rise in alcohol/drug users the cause or effect of other societal problems. The fact that most young men have no outlet for their natural aggression due to being in a nanny state plays a big part imo (without eny evidence, just a thought)

Do you think this would benefit our overall community, i.e. to have people who would never seek out an illicit drug, happily purchasing these because they legally can, probably liking the effects, and whacko you have a whole new raft of addicts.

I think if it was to be done, then the price would need to include taxes to cover the negatives that comes with it, same as with grog and smokes. Yes if it was legalised there would be those who become addicted (however nicotine is still one of the most addictive substances on Earth), and some who have mental problems (same as alcoholics), but there would also be benefits of those people who like to go out occasionally and do something different, dont have to worry about bad cuts, dont have to worry about dodgy dealers, and dont have to worry about losing their job (i know a huge amount of people in respected positions that take illegal substances)

 

[Julia]

I certainly dont have all the answers, but i am enjoying this good intellectual debate.

Well, I doubt that it will ever be anything more than a pointless debate, Prawn. No government is ever going to find legalising drugs like heroin and cocaine politically or sociologically acceptable.

The point i first made, was:
Is the rise in alcohol/drug users the cause or effect of other societal problems. The fact that most young men have no outlet for their natural aggression due to being in a nanny state plays a big part imo (without eny evidence, just a thought)

It's a reasonable question, but what about engaging in sport, getting into marathon running, mountaineering, or whatever as an outlet for excess energy. I also hate the nanny state, but don't really think we can blame this for drug abuse.

I think if it was to be done, then the price would need to include taxes to cover the negatives that comes with it, same as with grog and smokes.

That doesn't solve the problem of lack of capacity within the health system which is already failing.
And it doesn't take account of the moral question of creating a whole new bunch of addicts.

Prawn, I wonder if you've ever actually known someone who is addicted to opiates? The utter degradation and misery of the dominance in that person's life of the craving for the drug, to the extent that all other aspects of existence are ignored.

You speak blithely of the greatest problems being 'bad cuts' and 'dodgy dealers'. I can't imagine that you've ever seen an addict desperately trying to get through yet another attempt at withdrawal of an opiate, the physiological and psychological horror of it. If you had, you wouldn't be suggesting for a millisecond that these drugs should be made more available to more people.

 

[Wysiwyg]

You can`t put an old shoulder on young heads.

 

[Calliope]

... (i know a huge amount of people in respected positions that take illegal substances)

The drug habits of a "huge amount of people in respected positions" in the USA help fuel the Mexican drug wars where murderous drug cabals are killing each other and anyone who gets in their way. Their market is the USA, and their violence spills across the borders.

 

[prawn_86]

Prawn, I wonder if you've ever actually known someone who is addicted to opiates? The utter degradation and misery of the dominance in that person's life of the craving for the drug, to the extent that all other aspects of existence are ignored.

Unfortunately yes, i directly know both a morphine addict and an alcoholic. To be honest there is very little difference between the 2, and both substances have destroyed each seperate life (and damaged countless others around it).

I agree that nothing will ever come of it, but i think the debate is important, so long as people realise that we have legalised 2 of the most dangerous drugs known to man (alchohol and tobacco/nicotine) and yet others are instantly canned as being heinous just mentioning them simply because they are illegal.

 

[GumbyLearner]

Unfortunately yes, i directly know both a morphine addict and an alcoholic. To be honest there is very little difference between the 2, and both substances have destroyed each seperate life (and damaged countless others around it).

I agree that nothing will ever come of it, but i think the debate is important, so long as people realise that we have legalised 2 of the most dangerous drugs known to man (alchohol and tobacco/nicotine) and yet others are instantly canned as being heinous just mentioning them simply because they are illegal.

Have you known anyone personally who died from a heroin overdose prawn?

 

[prawn_86]

Have you known anyone personally who died from a heroin overdose prawn?

I dont see what this has to do with the discussion, but no thankfully.

 

[Ageo]

I reckon fine cigars and congnac should be encouraged in school so at least kids understand quality vs rubbish when having a good time.