Electricity matters/hot water/Wind

[awg]

Separate thread to the 22% increase. Some electricity issues

First, I will warn consumers re Heat Exchange Hot water systems that are being extensively marketed atm.

I recently got one fitted, at a cost of $5200, I was promised $4200 rebate.
I am now told there is a 6 month wait for my rebate, but far worse than this, I have a number of issues, despite me asking all the relevant questions, the sellers straight out lied to me.

1) Reduced water temperature...I can run a bath with 100% hot water and get straight into it, this is the factory setting, I need to alter the electronic thermostat setting, the max I can increase it is 5 degrees. The suppliers absolutely directly lied to me about this.

2) Reduced water pressure..this cannot be rectified, as a pressure pump cannot be fitted to this system, according to the manafacturer.

3) The electrician advised me that most people have had to switch from OFF-Peak 2 to Continuous Electricity...this will completely NEGATE any saving in electricity. They will not work effectively on Off peak 1. The suppliers lied directly about this. ( I am still on OP2)

4) The sub-contract installers were worse than baboons..they were prepared to turn up and fit a 450kg tank on a tiny plastic base, straight onto the dirt...I rang them several times to ask them to asses my site, they were reluctant, until I told them either inspect or I would not instal.

As a result of this I decided to install 2 concrete slabs, did all levelling and digging myself..they still whinged..I just cant believe that they would turn up and not instal properly leveled slabs

5) I have experience in installations of all sorts of electronic, electrical and mechanical installations, and I still got lied to to.


WIND POWER.

My relo is a maintenance supervisor at at a major NSW power station.

He advised me that wind power is totally uneconomic. It is very highly subsidised, but the generators themselves are frequently not generating, due to maintenance issues.

They have very complex hydraulic reduction gearboxs. If these require maintenance, which they often do, this can generally only be done by the suppliers specialists, flown in from Germany.

A 100 tonne crane can be required, which needs good weather to 1) Get onsite ( not too wet)...2) Operate on site..ie not too windy

I am also dubious about the energy inputs to build them, vs there effective life.

The quality of non-German wind generators is alleged to be too low for reliable use.

ELECTRICITY infrastructure

Not enough money has been spent on transmission infrastructure such as transmission lines, towers, pole etc, for many years.

The lead syndicate for a buy out of NSW power is a Chinese power gen co.

There will be more price rises to come.

He advised me nothing comes close to coal, for cost effectivness per MW$, but that Gas turbine mini-generators are the next big thing, as they can be built close to the source of the fuel, and close to where the power is needed. Transmission line loss is a HUGE issue, so generators must be close to were the power is needed in order to be cost competitive.

Had a good chat to him about micro generation such as solar and companies such as CFU, which I hold..told him to buy CFU...up 30% since our conversation, APA is another stock that will benefit, as they have a grip on the gas supply pipelines in NSW

 

[Happy]

This hot water system is pushed down consumer's throat without any side information except assurances how great it is.

Reminds me of energy saving globes that fail just after time that I can take them back to shop for refund or replacement.

Somebody mentioned wood stove, all I can say it is back to old times when air quality will be too dangerous to venture outside.
As it is now in my area I cannot go for a walk in the evening during whole colder season, as air content in smoke is too low for safe breathing.

We are taken for a ride again!

 

[Chris45]

Awg, two quick questions:
1. What's a "relo"?
2. Why didn't you go for solar hot water?
Cheers

 

[Timmy]

Awg, two quick questions:
1. What's a "relo"?
2. Why didn't you go for solar hot water?
Cheers

A 'relo' is a relative (Aunt, Uncle, Cousin ... etc.).

 

[Chris45]

A 'relo' is a relative (Aunt, Uncle, Cousin ... etc.).

Ahhh! I thought they were "rellies" (singular: relly) Thanks.

 

[Timmy]

Ahhh! I thought they were "rellies" (singular: relly) Thanks.

Yep. they work too.

I personally like 'the outlaws' for 'the in-laws' .

 

[awg]

Awg, two quick questions:
1. What's a "relo"?
2. Why didn't you go for solar hot water?
Cheers

2) Thats a good question, various minor reasons, think I made a mistake in retrospect. Hopefully I was not lied to about the promised power saving, that being 75% ( for water heating), but after straight out pork pies so far, nothing will surprise me.

1) sorry my regional slang

3) Anyone else getting sick of sales staff lying to them on the phone?

 

[Green08]

Mmmm this is a country perspective..

Hydronic - combustable fire. We are still having -2 C ahh last night

Warmth, fire, hydronic heaters - oh bliss - THE best heat I've experienced..so far... cheap recycles the water, have a few spare acres of felled trees.

Get a chainsaw licence, just a cert 3 will let you handle the wood

Wind farms, they look fine - at a distance wouldn't want to be down wind of one for the noise.

The're looking at putting 78 not far away Apparently the coastal humans need more electricity so they think our backyard would be a good place to start! I don't think they have the money as the company went bust:

We plant 5 new trees for each one on the ground. They were already felled.

 

[Smurf1976]

I'll bet you've got a D** water heater? Either that or a certain other well known "major" brand that's really not that great?

Bottom line is that a quality product properly installed will work fine certainly on off-peak 2 (long hours) and in most cases on off-peak 1 (night only, the cheapest rate).

All things considered, I'd go for evacuated tubes if you want actual "solar" hot water. But if you're using electric boost and aren't in the tropics (where solar is close to perfect) then I'd go for a heat pump instead.

What sort of heat pump? Siddons Solarstream or Quantum. They're Aussie made decent quality products. And unlike the others, they operate with no need for a booster (even during Winter in Tassie or the ACT).

What size heat pump? Get the 327 (Siddons) or 340 (Quantum) litre versions for typical household use.

What tariff to run it on? Off-peak 1 if you're a moderate hot water user. Off-peak 2 if you use lots of hot water.

*Off-peak 1 not available ACT. *Off-peak 2 not available SA and Vic. *Tas - Off-peak 1 is known as Tariff 62, off-peak 2 is Tariff 61. "HydroHeat" (Tariff 42) is 24 hour supply and also reasonably cheap - the heat pumps are eligible for connection to this rate or either of the off-peak rates.

As for wind power, it's generally the cheapest non-hydro renewable but it's not economically viable without subsidies unless the only available alternative is oil (eg remote areas).

Wind operating (after construction) costs are extremely high compared to hydro or brown coal and are typically higher than black coal or nuclear. A huge number of individually small machines each needing a lot of maintenance blows the budget. The running cost ends up being comparable to a modern gas-fired plant in many cases.

Hydro and in some cases geothermal are the only renewables that are viable for electricity whilst biomass is often viable for local use (for heat). Hydro and the direct (non-electricity) use of wood and crop wastes comprises the vast majority of renewable energy used worldwide for this reason. Geothermal is significant in a few places where it's easily available.

Transmission losses - disagree there since it's only a vew % of total generation that is lost. The only real issue is that in some places transmission is getting expensive - but that's for economic / political reasons (ie transmission companies charging a lot) not due to losses.

I'm always happy to help if anyone has any technical questions about electrical things. (I won't tell you how to DIY dangerous work however - get a professional rather than risk killing yourself!).

 

[awg]

I'll bet you've got a D** water heater? Either that or a certain other well known "major" brand that's really not that great?

Bottom line is that a quality product properly installed will work fine certainly on off-peak 2 (long hours) and in most cases on off-peak 1 (night only, the cheapest rate).

All things considered, I'd go for evacuated tubes if you want actual "solar" hot water. But if you're using electric boost and aren't in the tropics (where solar is close to perfect) then I'd go for a heat pump instead.

What sort of heat pump? Siddons Solarstream or Quantum. They're Aussie made decent quality products. And unlike the others, they operate with no need for a booster (even during Winter in Tassie or the ACT).

What size heat pump? Get the 327 (Siddons) or 340 (Quantum) litre versions for typical household use.

What tariff to run it on? Off-peak 1 if you're a moderate hot water user. Off-peak 2 if you use lots of hot water.

*Off-peak 1 not available ACT. *Off-peak 2 not available SA and Vic. *Tas - Off-peak 1 is known as Tariff 62, off-peak 2 is Tariff 61. "HydroHeat" (Tariff 42) is 24 hour supply and also reasonably cheap - the heat pumps are eligible for connection to this rate or either of the off-peak rates.

I'm always happy to help if anyone has any technical questions about electrical things. (I won't tell you how to DIY dangerous work however - get a professional rather than risk killing yourself!).

Always good to see yr input on Electrical matters Smurf

Its a Saxon, made in Australia, i have no probs naming the brand, it seems a high quality product and hopefully is?

The problem to some extent is that the product was sold by a marketing company and fitted by different sub-contractors, the manufacturer just makes them, and the the marketing sales people will say anything.

They rang at the exact time I wanted one, and did a sales job on me

Have 3 teenagers who sometimes have 2+ showers per day, but havent run out yet, so that is a plus.

Was advised solar is marginal for a large user such as myself.

As to the compressor, the instructions dont name or specify what it is. I will check tmrw ( the compressor is fitted remotely about 10ft away from the tank and is similar to an aircon compressor

Tank is 400litres

Also found out they are not recommended for sub-zero temp applications, and theoretically should work more efficiently in summer.

As I said, I am on OP2, that seems ok, also the water temp is acceptable, although maybe I will turn the thermo up a couple of degrees after a time, if it does not improve at all in warmer weather, even though this will use more power.

was advised OP1 is unsuitable.

another thing I discovered the electricity people dont tell you is that "smart meters" allow them to charge you a variety of higher timed rates, all the publicity is how you can save using yr smart meter, so dont feel like yr missing out if u dont have one!

 

[nunthewiser]

Get a chainsaw licence, just a cert 3 will let you handle the wood

.

?? uh . chainsaw licence ?

i own chainsaws , i cut my own firewood on my property ....... is this an oz wide requirement re licence ? or does it vary state to state ?

i am in WA .... chopped my own wood in tasmania also

geez next your gunna tell me i need a licence for the 12 guage also

 

[drsmith]

The problem to some extent is that the product was sold by a marketing company and fitted by different sub-contractors, the manufacturer just makes them, and the the marketing sales people will say anything.

They rang at the exact time I wanted one, and did a sales job on me

Modern Group ?

 

[Smurf1976]

Ok, let's get this working properly... A few questions first though. PM me if you don't want to post the answers - just trying to help here.

1. Would I be right in assuming 5 people in total are in the house?

2. How many bathrooms (including ensuites or separate showers) are there?

3. Is there anything unusual that uses extra hot water (eg spa)?

4. What temperature is the thermostat set to? This is the thermostat on the tank and not any other temperature control device.

5. Are there any mixing valves, electronic controllers or anything else installed on the hot water pipe after it leaves the tank and before it gets to the bathroom? If so, any chance of a photo? The most likely location for any such valves is immediately next to the tank (possibly attached to the tank - follow where the hot water pipe goes and see if there's any valves etc on it).

6. Have you checked that the tank is actually full of water? This is an issue with this type of tank and the installer should have explained how to go about this. Just because water flows from the tap, doesn't mean the tank is full when there's a heat exchanger (as distinct from a heat pump which is completely separate) involved.

 

[drsmith]

?? uh . chainsaw licence ?

May have something to do with collecting firewood from public land such as a road verge.

I know in parts of South Australia at least it's not a free-for-all.

 

[Smurf1976]

Its a Saxon, made in Australia, i have no probs naming the brand, it seems a high quality product and hopefully is?

Saxon is indeed a quality product to my understanding. It just needs to be installed and used properly (like anything...).

The company that makes Saxon water heaters in Qld is a different company to the Saxon wood heaters which are very common in Tasmania (no longer made there though). Both are, historically at least, a quality product however. Just don't assume they're the same company - they're not.

(But for anyone buying a wood heater - the Saxon firebox was always 8mm steel which lasts longer than the 6mm steel in most other brands. Not sure if this is still the case however but mine is 15 y.o. still going strong).

 

[So_Cynical]

?? uh . chainsaw licence ?

i own chainsaws , i cut my own firewood on my property ....... is this an oz wide requirement re licence ? or does it vary state to state ?

i am in WA .... chopped my own wood in tasmania also

geez next your gunna tell me i need a licence for the 12 guage also

I think hes implying that most people don't have a clue how to use a chainsaw and can learn alot from a course...simple tree would be enough (2 days) cert 3 is a little over the top.

Ive found that even people who have been using saws (untrained) for years make alot of safety and maintenance mistakes.

Do u wear cut pants when u cut wood nun?

 

[awg]

Ok, let's get this working properly... A few questions first though. PM me if you don't want to post the answers - just trying to help here.

1. Would I be right in assuming 5 people in total are in the house?

2. How many bathrooms (including ensuites or separate showers) are there?

3. Is there anything unusual that uses extra hot water (eg spa)?

4. What temperature is the thermostat set to? This is the thermostat on the tank and not any other temperature control device.

5. Are there any mixing valves, electronic controllers or anything else installed on the hot water pipe after it leaves the tank and before it gets to the bathroom? If so, any chance of a photo? The most likely location for any such valves is immediately next to the tank (possibly attached to the tank - follow where the hot water pipe goes and see if there's any valves etc on it).

6. Have you checked that the tank is actually full of water? This is an issue with this type of tank and the installer should have explained how to go about this. Just because water flows from the tap, doesn't mean the tank is full when there's a heat exchanger (as distinct from a heat pump which is completely separate) involved.

Thanks Smurf,

theres 5 people in the house ( not including girlfriends)

Only one bathroom

No spas

there is a mixing valve..the installers insisted it be fitted, so that I didnt get scalded!....I have already adjusted it to 100% hot

The themostat is electronic and fitted to the compressor, which is a Saxon.

I just spoke to them on the phone, and they confirmed turning it up is the correct procedure, I will do this myself, as I am a qualified Electronics technician, following the procedure in the manual.

Will check the factory setting first, the manufactures advised reset to 69C max 64C min, which seems very high, as I had my previous thermo set to 55C, and it gave much hotter water.

(They have explained it is a completely different process of heating, they lost me on the technicalities)

As I said, the water temp is adequate, as if I run a bath at 100% hot water, I can get into it, but I have VERY hot baths.

If I turn up the thermo, it will increase my power consumption.

The length of the copper pipes from the tank to bathroom, would be probably over 50 ft, so this may be why I have heat loss, as releasing water from the release valve on the tank was too hot to keep my hand under.

Dr Smith, cant remember if it was Modern Group, they dont say on the phone...I only found out about the way the scheme works when I rang to get a site inspection, by the plumbers.

If I had my time again, I would have consulted with my regular plumber and electrician first, like I said, I got sucked in, hence my warning to other consumers.

Will be interested to get my next elec bill, and will update forum on usage


ps re chainsaws, never heard of a licence...have rebuilt my 25 yr old chainsaw a couple of times, always be very careful, they will kill you, advise saw chaps + steel cap boots..angle grinders are incredibly vicious tools

 

[Smurf1976]

A few points (I've done the calcs but won't bother everyone with the technicalities).

Off-peak 2 would be the correct tariff for this water heater with the number of people etc you describe. You shouldn't have problems running it on that tariff unless you have unusually long showers etc.

The mixing valve you describe would be part of the problem. It's required by law but personally I hate the things. I can see the point of safety, but I think it reasonable that I ought to be able to have proper hot water if I want it. If it wasn't against the law, I'd suggest that you could turn it up as hot as it goes...

The way this heater works is different to most HWS either heat pump or conventional electric. In short, the tank is full of water BUT this is not under pressure and the water in the tank is not the water that ends up in your taps. The water is simply a heat storage medium through which a copper coil (pipe) is run, inside of which is the water that goes to the tap. It's a simple matter of the heat in the tank heating the water as it flows through the coil - hence calling it "heat exchange".

Discharge from the relief valve into the tank (and then out the overflow if the tank is full) should keep the tank full (it will lose small amounts of water to evaporation). But it's not impossible for these systems to "boil dry", hence it's worth checking occasionally.

One potential problem with these heaters relates to flow rate. If the flow rate at the tap is too high, the water won't heat up adequately as it flows through the coil and you'll have warm, not hot, water coming out of the tap. Correct flow rate is 9 litres per minute (so it should take 1 minute to fill a bucket from the hot tap - that's the correct flow rate).

For any storage water heater (regardless of how it's heated), 60 degrees is the normal "minimum" setting to ensure no bacteria growth. It's also a nice economical setting that minimises heater corrosion and energy consumption. So I'd recommend setting it to 60 and only increasing it if there's a reason to do so (water not hot enough, running out of hot water etc). Don't go above the maximum recommended setting (usually 70 or 75) otherwise you'll wreck everything from the tank's insulation to your washing machine hoses.

For pipe insulation, you can easily do that if you want to and if the pipes are accessible. I did all mine (under the house) in an evening. Reason I did it was to reduce the need to "run through" the hot water all the time rather than to save on energy costs (though it will save a bit of power too). Use the foam tubes available at hardware stores, cut them along their full length and just slip it over the pipe. Wrap wire or cable ties around it to hold in place (don't squash the foam while doing this, only wrap tightly enough to keep it all together). I used black tape so it all looks nice and neat.

As for the power bill, you should be using about one third as much electricity with the heat pump as a conventional electric water heater would use. How much power that actually is will depend on your usage - probably quite a lot with 5 people in the house. If you previous water heater was also off-peak 2 then that should translate directly to a financial saving. Obviously it's a bit more complicated if you're comparing it with off-peak 1, continuous electricity or gas.

 

[Glen48]

Mains pressure H.W.S use to be made out of copper about about 1mm thick and last 20+ yrs now it is as thin as Al foil and last about 10 yrs.. I looked a wind/solar elect. and it works out about 10K for 1 kilowatt so you need to spend $25,000 to run 1 A/C and then you have to replace the batteries about 5 yr or so.

 

[Smurf1976]

Cheaper option if you want to generate your own power is a grid-connected system. You can get 1.5kW solar for $3899 at the moment from at least one major supplier. They are also doing 1kW for, I think, $3399. That's for a fully installed system including all parts and labour installed on a single storey Colorbond / galvainsed ("tin") roof - it's a little bit extra for tiled roof or difficult access locations etc.

In some states the electricity supplier might charge extra for a new meter. In Tas it's free but in some states they do charge for this. Check locally - I've heard figures up to $450 quoted for some staes.

I have a 1kW grid-connected solar panel system on my house. Hot water is just conventional electric (off-peak 2) however. Heating is wood and electric in the house, oil downstairs in the workshop/garage. Cooktop is LPG, oven is electric.

Just for the sake of it, I did work out where my energy all comes from back to the point of supply (that is, fuel into power stations etc).

Wood 55.7%
Hydro 26.8%
Oil / LPG 8.9%
Solar 5.6%
Wind 1.2%
Coal 1.0%
Natural gas 0.7%
Other 0.1%

So I'm using 89.4% renewable energy overall, mostly as wood for heating and as hydro-electricity from the grid. About two thirds of my total energy use is for space heating - Smurf doesn't like the cold. If you just take basic electricity (excluding hot water and heating) then solar is about half of the total I use.