Storm Financial Group

[bunyip]

This post to me highlights the lack of understanding by Storm clients of their own and/or Storm's responsibility in this process.

Who was responsible for monitoring the investments of Storm clients - was it Storm or was it the client? - because it certainly wasn't the bank.


The margin loan was a debt product used by Storm clients to leverage into investments. The bank provided the debt product - in providing a debt product it doesn't have any responsibility to the recipient of that product for managing the investments made with that debt product.

The bank is only responsible to its own shareholders to ensure that they minimised the losses from deteriorating assets (i.e.debt products). The best way for CBA to minimise losses is to make a margin call as early as possible - therefore CBA failed in its duty to itself/its shareholders as far as I can see.

It is whoever was meant to be monitoring the investments that failed the Storm investors.

Investors have a responsibility to themselves for monitoring their investments and their debt servicing obligations ... not banks.

Investors have a responsibility to themselves to ensure they adopt gearing levels that they are comfortable with and only take on risks that they are comfortable with and only take on debt that they can comfortably service.

Banks have a responsibility to their shareholders to increase their assets (i.e. selling debt products) while also monitoring asset quality and taking action if asset quality deteriorates. The bank failed its shareholders by not making early margin calls and thus increasing their losses - the bank didn't fail investors - investors failed themselves.

So if the investors were relying on Storm to advise them and relying on Storm to monitor their investments - then Storm failed the investors - not the banks.

Margin calls are a safety net. Its not a good investor that relies on a bank making a margin call to decide to sell down a portfolio. Portfolio management by debt default - never heard of that as a succesful investment strategy. Was that Storms investment model? Invest as much as you can and only sell down if forced to by a bank making a margin call? If so thats a terrible investment strategy.

Cuttlefish - a very good post.

One particularly relevant point you make is that investors have a responsibility to themselves for monitoring their investments and their debt servicing obligations.

So many people keep harping the point - why didn't anyone let me know I was in margin call?
The simple fact is that prudence should dictate that investors take defensive action well before they get anywhere near margin call.
This point appears to have been missed by most Storm investors.

 

[cuttlefish]

Oh I don't think it's that unreasonable on CBA or it's holders. They are just as obliged through themselves or agents acting on their behalf to make adequate inquiries into the capacity of repayment to whom they lend and whether it can be paid back. Lenders are subject to laws too you know.

I agree that the bank appears to have failed in some of its duties in relation to responsible lending and possibly bears partial responsibility in some of the situations that occurred. But they certainly weren't the primary cause of the situation that led to people losing their investments and wealth.

What annoys me is that SICAG doesn't appear care about where the responsibility lies - all they care about is getting as much money out of the bank as possible because the banks have the money.

 

[Landyman]

CBA? Yeah, need a solid whip and kick to the nuts and must correct errors and failings.

Manny. Pity they have done away with the public stocks.

But Stormers? Totally blameless are they specialed? Not even sentient beings capable of cogent thought? Cannot even tie their own shoelaces? Drones? Just saw Manny on telly and thought, Gee here is all my money I'll ever earn plus my house and let's go Yipee! Despite all the huffing and puffing, it is people who make the decisions and they failed themselves and need to take a degree of responsibility. Not all certainly but definitely a degree of the blame. And no one will be able to convince me otherwise.

In the words of my 81 year old mother-in-law. who lives in Mossman, is sharp as a tack and like many other Queenslanders has been following the Storm story with interest, has reported to me of farms lost around Ingham "Dear, dear me such foolish people to bet the house. Careless."

Gee, nanna must be really sharp and well connected. It is a bloody long way between Mossman And Ingham.

Landy

 

[GumbyLearner]

I agree that the bank appears to have failed in some of its duties in relation to responsible lending and possibly bears partial responsibility in some of the situations that occurred. But they certainly weren't the primary cause of the situation that led to people losing their investments and wealth.

What annoys me is that SICAG doesn't appear care about where the responsibility lies - all they care about is getting as much money out of the bank as possible because the banks have the money.

Fair point cuttle.
Of course it's a matter for the courts and the administration of justice.
Isn't that the nature of litigation? Go where the money is?

 

[bunyip]

Read. Simply browse bookshops and the library. And then make your own way basically ignoring other "Ya gotta do it this way" people. I may be curious about money and finances but it is neither a passion nor obsession merely a tool.

Let's be clear about something.
I've outlined a simple investment strategy that's worked for me and many other people I know.
I'm not saying 'Ya gotta do it this way'. I've simply put forward one way of getting started in investment. No doubt there are other ways too.
Whatever strategy is used, I'd suggest that savings and management of personal finances are the building blocks that can put people in a position where they have money to invest.

 

[Judd]

Gee, nanna must be really sharp and well connected. It is a bloody long way between Mossman And Ingham.

Landy

She is.

 

[darkside]

Gee, nanna must be really sharp and well connected. It is a bloody long way between Mossman And Ingham.

Landy

Well she doesn't have to be a rocket scientist, no offence to "nanna", my family come from Brisbane , know of people that lost houses at the "Club Cassimatis Casino" and they wonder why they bet the house.

I think good old "nana" has a good old point. I don't think she is too influenced by geography. " Double or nothing Nanna, let it ride!!!!"

 

[GumbyLearner]

Gee, nanna must be really sharp and well connected. It is a bloody long way between Mossman And Ingham.

Landy

My Nan told me exactly the same many years ago.

 

[Harleyquin]

The comments that attack SICAG and its motives or the role it should play astound me. They, like everyone, are interested in finding out the cause of this nightmare, and in time who is responsible and where the blame lies, be it with the banks, Storm, ASIC. Hopefully this will help to ensure it doesn’t happen again. However, SICAG was originally set up by storm clients to support each other. Many of these retired people are fighting to stop their lives sinking further into despair, if that is possible, with many having already been forced by the bank to sell everything they own. Most have been financially destroyed, and so if going after the CBA and CGI , rather than STORM for financial recompense seems suspicious to you, try existing under the permanent threat of losing your house, with no prospect of gaining employment because of your age.

The CBA have admitted problems with their loans, discrepancies in their systems (presumably the accuracy of their market monitoring software). Their submission appears to contain statements that are inaccurate in the least and possibly deliberately dishonest or deceitful at worst. The CBA has already begun a process of limited compensation, and has already admitted “some” fault. All this and there are still (at least) three investigations into this debacle to be completed. What more has to happen before some of the contributors to this forum eat humble pie, and admit that these people are victims and that SICAG, whatever its committee make up is should be doing nothing but seeking compensation for it members. Personally I don’t care who is on the committee if the end result is a better payout for those who have lost everything. STORM financial is a dead horse, the CBA took care of that and they have ensured that there is no compensation within that area that can help the victims.

Surely SICAG’s primary role should be to help its members gain some form of financial security from this debacle, and this stage that means the CBA and CGI for their role in this margin call disaster. Nothing else is going to help these people rebuild what’s left of their lives.

It is the role of the senate inquiry, the ASIC investigation and the inquiry by the liquidators to establish how this happened and who is at fault. Those contributors who continue with discussions regarding the composition of SICAG, its “model”, its purpose and all the other rubbish I read shows little in the way of an intelligent understanding of this whole affair. They also seem to have a very juvenile and naïve understanding of how people operate and the extent to which companies show scant regard for its customers, not to mention a very naive understanding of the way the media reports much of this. Keep up the great work SICAG, and just go for the money !

Well said and I second that. Well done to the committee - they are doing a great job and those of us who have joined SICAG in our fight for true justice, appreciate their considerable efforts. We look up to all of them. I really appreciate Ron Jelich's contribution to our cause. There are a lot of other planners who scuttled off into the night never to be seen again but Ron has come forward to help wherever and whenever he can and good on him. Ron has put in a great submission and none of us know exactly what went on behind the scenes, he was possibly duped as well by the man in charge. For those of us devastated by this disaster, combining our efforts to fight is far more important than all the little things that you may disagree with - the big picture is what is important here and that is to fight as a united group. We have been wronged and those wrongs need to be righted. I feel for the retirees and those close to retirement. These poor people have been promised a secure future and have lost everything and still in debt. Depression and thoughts of self harm are rampant amongst many of them. It's a human tragedy. All we want to know is how and why did it happen, and who is responsible for such devastation to so many lives.

 

[maccka]

Specialed, two points you made:

SICAG set up by Storm CLIENTS? Er, I do believe there are ex Storm staff involved or am I wrong on that count?

With respect Farencue - your statement is in fact incorrect.

SICAG was established by 3 ex-clients. Any ex Storm staff that assist the entire membership of nearly 1600 people (not just the committee) came along later.

Cheers
Maccka

 

[bunyip]

Fair point cuttle.
Of course it's a matter for the courts and the administration of justice.
Isn't that the nature of litigation? Go where the money is?

Sure it is.
But my understanding is that SICAG was formed to seek justice for Storm investors.
If that's the case, then rather than focusing their attention only on the people they think they can get money out of, SICAG should be going after all parties who are guilty of illegal or unscrupulous dealings that contributed to the predicament that Storm investors now find themselves in.

 

[Judd]

Let's be clear about something.
I've outlined a simple investment strategy that's worked for me and many other people I know.
I'm not saying 'Ya gotta do it this way'. I've simply put forward one way of getting started in investment. No doubt there are other ways too.
Whatever strategy is used, I'd suggest that savings and management of personal finances are the building blocks that can put people in a position where they have money to invest.

bunyip, I didn't say that you are a 'Ya gotta do it this way'. person or that is what you are saying. I simply said I ignore such people. And that is what I do.

And yes, if people can balance their bank statement and can put $5.00 aside every week from their pay, they have a chance.

 

[GumbyLearner]

Sure it is.
But my understanding is that SICAG was formed to seek justice for Storm investors.
If that's the case, then rather than focusing their attention only on the people they think they can get money out of, SICAG should be going after all parties who are guilty of illegal or unscrupulous dealings that contributed to the predicament that Storm investors now find themselves in.

Oh I don't disagree with you at all Bunyip. As a matter of principle you are correct. But in reality the course of much commerical litigation focuses on going after liquid defendants. That's just the way it is. I note that you feel certain parties should not be excluded from facing up to their responsibilities in this debacle.

Anyway, I hope things work out for the people of NQ.

Just my opinion

 

[Landyman]

Well said and I second that. Well done to the committee - they are doing a great job and those of us who have joined SICAG in our fight for true justice, appreciate their considerable efforts. We look up to all of them. I really appreciate Ron Jelich's contribution to our cause. There are a lot of other planners who scuttled off into the night never to be seen again but Ron has come forward to help wherever and whenever he can and good on him. Ron has put in a great submission and none of us know exactly what went on behind the scenes, he was possibly duped as well by the man in charge. For those of us devastated by this disaster, combining our efforts to fight is far more important than all the little things that you may disagree with - the big picture is what is important here and that is to fight as a united group. We have been wronged and those wrongs need to be righted. I feel for the retirees and those close to retirement. These poor people have been promised a secure future and have lost everything and still in debt. Depression and thoughts of self harm are rampant amongst many of them. It's a human tragedy. All we want to know is how and why did it happen, and who is responsible for such devastation to so many lives.

The only reason Ron Jelich has come forward is in the hope of saving his ring gear from the more predatory guests of the Dept of Corrective Services.

Landy

 

[Judd]

" Double or nothing Nanna, let it ride!!!!"

How did you know that she bred Arabs? Was a fine horsewoman. Farm born and bred. She won about $500 on Viewed last year plus she got a bit light headed on champers.

 

[bunyip]

The only reason Ron Jelich has come forward is in the hope of saving his ring gear from the more predatory guests of the Dept of Corrective Services.

Landy

I'm inclined to agree.

While I applaud any efforts Jelich is now making to help Storm victims, I definitely don't applaud his promotion of Storm Financial while he was part of the whole shonky outfit. As Storm's main promotions man, he has a hell of a lot to answer for. No thinking person could possibly believe he didn't know he was promoting a highly risky and dodgy Storm investment model that was fatally flawed and was bound to fall apart once the bull market ran out of steam and a significant correction took hold.

 

[Julia]

So it doesn't really matter who was at fault - all that matters to SICAG is that it gets as much money from the banks as possible, in any way it can?

I bet a few CBA shareholders would be pretty p*ss*d off at having to take the burden for this just because 'the bank is the only one with any money left'.

Storm pushed investors into irresponsible investment practices. Storm was knowingly complicit in pushing investors to misrepresent their asset values and incomes. Storm created the investment model and Storm failed to adequately manage and monitor this highly risky investment strategy.

Storm is the responsible party.

The banks and bank shareholders aren't responsible for cleaning up the mess that Storm made.

Ah Cuttlefish, thank heaven for your realistic summary amongst all the repetitive accusations implying the banks had a responsibility for the validity or otherwise of Storm clients' investment strategies.

Well said and I second that. Well done to the committee - they are doing a great job and those of us who have joined SICAG in our fight for true justice, appreciate their considerable efforts. We look up to all of them. I really appreciate Ron Jelich's contribution to our cause. There are a lot of other planners who scuttled off into the night never to be seen again but Ron has come forward to help wherever and whenever he can and good on him. Ron has put in a great submission and none of us know exactly what went on behind the scenes, he was possibly duped as well by the man in charge.

For goodness sake, Harleyquin, isn't Mr Jelich supposed to be a financial planner? He would have been able to see the flaws (and that's an understatement) in the Storm Ponzi Scheme, but seemingly went along with it in order to participate in the undoubtedly rich rewards commission-wise.

It really is time to get realistic about some of these people.

For those of us devastated by this disaster, combining our efforts to fight is far more important than all the little things that you may disagree with - the big picture is what is important here and that is to fight as a united group. We have been wronged and those wrongs need to be righted.

We may just have a somewhat different view of what constitutes the big picture and where the responsibilities lie.
You keep focusing on 'being wronged'. How about the CBA shareholders having been wronged by (a) the bank's apparently poorly supervised lending practices, and (b) any compensation deals that may occur?

I feel for the retirees and those close to retirement. These poor people have been promised a secure future and have lost everything and still in debt. Depression and thoughts of self harm are rampant amongst many of them. It's a human tragedy. All we want to know is how and why did it happen, and who is responsible for such devastation to so many lives.

If you're unable to have some idea of what happened even now, then you're at risk of it happening all over again, Harleyquin.
Google 'ponzi scheme' and see how it applies to Storm's strategy of dragging in ever more investors, and increasing the level of debt amongst those already ensnared.

The only reason Ron Jelich has come forward is in the hope of saving his ring gear from the more predatory guests of the Dept of Corrective Services.

Landy

Sounds like it. Amazing how a bloke can suddenly find a conscience, huh!

I'm inclined to agree.

While I applaud any efforts Jelich is now making to help Storm victims, I definitely don't applaud his promotion of Storm Financial while he was part of the whole shonky outfit. As Storm's main promotions man, he has a hell of a lot to answer for. No thinking person could possibly believe he didn't know he was promoting a highly risky and dodgy Storm investment model that was fatally flawed and was bound to fall apart once the bull market ran out of steam and a significant correction took hold.

Exactly.

 

[Ironhalo]

Specialed, as I continue to say ad nauseum in this thread, SICAG have done some great work, and I am sure that a great many people have taken comfort in the fact that they have been able to gather as a group and talk everything over.

What I, and a fair few people in here absolutely detest, is the amount of ex-Storm employees that had positions of note with the company, who have attached themselves to the SICAG banner. Ron Jelich, for all intents and purposes, can go to hell. I am sure he is a nice man, and I wish him no ill, but the guy was the national promotions manager (or whatever the position was) for a company who when their client's needed them the most, ignored their phone calls and sold themselves out of trouble before leaping off the sinking ship, not to mention the fact that they knowingly and greedily flung vulnerable clients into more debt right at the end, in order to maximise their own commissions and save Manny's ****.

I know Ron Jelich has done it tough, but the fact remains, that if the GFC didn't happen, he would still be giving out the same crap advice and waxing lyrical about the dangerous Storm model as he was last year, and skimming the commissions off the top. But as my mother's new financial adviser said to her, 'I am sure he is a great guy, but for his role in what he did to you, I don't feel one ounce of sympathy for him.'

Mr Jelich (and including some of the other ex-Stormers who have tried to build new financial planning careers by re-contacting former clients they destroyed) have tarnished the SICAG cause with their presence. Mr Weir would have done well to have distanced SICAG's good support work from these predators. And yes, my family has already been targeted by some of these ex-advisers (cough Andrew O'Brien) who were still trying to claim their cut of money and business, even after they had financially runied them.

Specialed, I have no doubt that some of the committee members have good intentions (being victims themselves, but I really think some of them truly believe the Storm model wasn't to blame, when it bloody well was). Don't be so naive to think that Manny isn't talking honey in one or two of their ears, nor don't think that some of them are only in it to absolve themselves of guilt, or a family member's guilt. Only when SICAG turns its guns on Storm will I shift my opinion of it. I will be overjoyed to stand corrected if they do.

I would hate to see people get screwed over again mate. And as for Cassimatis, his filthy role in all of this is coming out. I know for a FACT that it was him and JC that stopped Storm branches acting on margin calls thinking he could ride it out and rake in the cash, and despite the banks failures, Storm was 60% to blame for all of this.

The sooner people see this, the better.

 

[Harleyquin]

The only reason Ron Jelich has come forward is in the hope of saving his ring gear from the more predatory guests of the Dept of Corrective Services.

Landy

I appreciate Ron's efforts in helping all storm victims and think he is doing a great job in supporting all of us. Nobody has forced him to help it's something he wants to do. He has been as devastated as the rest of us by this collapse. Many of the planners believed in this strategy so much that they advised their friends and families to join up. Lies have certainly been told by EC who has schooled his salesmen well, they all told us the same oily spiel, it's a shame they believed EC and a shame that we all believed the planners.

A member of our family got us to join up because they were so happy with their investment. We filled out paperwork with storm asking for a low risk conservative approach to any investments and our planner guaranteed us the type of investment we asked for - that was the first fib. A lot of investors have been successfully using this strategy for as long as investing has been in existence and if monitored correctly can be very successful but it isn't low risk. Storm advised us not to monitor our investments but to leave it up to their experts. That sounded good to those of us who were investors for the first time.

The risk only becomes a huge problem when not monitored correctly and when we are given massive loans, and margin loans should never be given to retirees. From where I'm standing storm central have taken over total control from the planners and have lied and cheated us out of our life savings and failed to monitor their clients investments successfully and the banks, latched onto storm central like big fat leeches and have made sure they have lent far too much money, maybe even under false pretences, to people who never had a hope of affording to service the debt. I see nothing wrong with going after storm and the banks, they have both failed us and we feel strongly that we have failed ourselves make no mistake about it. I have kicked myself for almost twelve months now for being so gullible.

Blame is something we are all doing to ourselves more than any of you realise. We blame ourselves for trusting, for not looking into this strategy and understanding it more, for agreeing to let them monitor our investment instead of doing it ourselves, for not demanding to be cashed up when they said not to follow the herd, you name it we blame ourselves for it, but at the end of the day we should be able to trust a licensed financial planner and the banks.

I no longer care whether anyone else agrees or disagrees with me, that's my opinion and I know that we did not agree to this financial plan lightly. We believed what we were told. Those of you who were too clever to get caught in this big net good on you, we won't be caught again either, but it's been a huge learning curve let me tell you.

My next mission is to learn how to do this for myself and I've been assured that itls not too hard to do. To monitor my own investment and with a bit of luck and some good advice from others who know what they are doing and are sharing their knowledge with us, we should be ok. Whatever happens with this parliamentary inquiry I hope they can close the loopholes which allowed this debacle to occur in the first place, find out exactly who is responsible and to give us some restitution where we have been wronged. For the lawyers involved it must be a massive undertaking. Can any of you imagine the paperwork these people have to sort through. We all need to move on and it's very hard to do while so much in still unresolved.

 

[bunyip]

I see nothing wrong with going after storm and the banks, they have both failed us .

Well then tell that to SICAG, because clearly their idea of 'justice' does not involve going after Storm, the main culprit in this affair.
On the contrary, their website continues to endorse the outrageous Storm fees model.
Sure they're doing some good work in going after the banks, and also by providing a supportive network for Storm victims - many of us have acknowledged that.
But SICAG will continue to draw criticism as long as they avoid moving against Storm, the main culprits.