More Religious Nuts

[trainspotter]

I like how we have drawn paedophilia and a purple flying unicorn PLUS my very low IQ into this deabte.

Bwahahah aha ahha ha ha aha h ah (insert maniacal laugh here)

Hey sunder ... read my post on "hard wired behavioural patterns for mammals" it might help you somewhat.

 

[Julia]

I have repeated myself so many times and you don't seem to get it. No I did not say that you do not have no morals. What I have been saying consistently is that without reference to absolutes, morality then is relative. What is right for one may be wrong to another but you have no basis to say your morals are better than someone else's.

Really quite simple I would have thought.

I agree that it's simple and perfectly sensible.

Maybe accept that to some perpetuating the argument is just sport.

 

[trainspotter]

I have repeated myself so many times and you don't seem to get it. No I did not say that you do not have no morals. What I have been saying consistently is that without reference to absolutes, morality then is relative. What is right for one may be wrong to another but you have no basis to say your morals are better than someone else's.

Really quite simple I would have thought.

Read my post first then have another go at attempting this one.

You said " Morality without reference to absolutes is meaningless."

And I said "So are you saying that if I do not have a reference point to a fixed perspective that I have no morals?"

I love it when it gets to a he said, she said thread ... don't you?

My morals tell me it IS NOT OK to strap explosives to your body and blow yourself up. If your morals think this is Ok then my advice is for you to do it well away from me.

 

[Timmy]

An old favourite:

 

[ktrianta]

Read my post first then have another go at attempting this one.

You said " Morality without reference to absolutes is meaningless."

And I said "So are you saying that if I do not have a reference point to a fixed perspective that I have no morals?"

I love it when it gets to a he said, she said thread ... don't you?

My morals tell mne it IS NOT OK to strap explosives to your body and blow yourself up. If your morals think this is Ok then my advice is for you to do it well away from me.

Think I will just take Julia's advice and walk away. Not sure how many times i can say the same thing.
Thanks for the discourse anyway. All the best.

 

[trainspotter]

I agree that it's simple and perfectly sensible.

Maybe accept that to some perpetuating the argument is just sport.

Sorry Julia, I thought I made myself abundantly clear when it came to absolute references and morals on this matter. This is not a sport. More of a game really. really

 

[trainspotter]

Oh, enough of this cryptic, obscure stuff, ktrianta. Let's get this sorted out.
So that we can all move on, you should yourself define what is right and wrong to you.

Hopefully that will then allow you to finally answer the question originally posed in this thread.

If that's all too hard (translation: you prefer to continue avoiding the issue) then might be best if you withdraw from the thread, given that your contribution really is not contributing in any constructive fashion.

However, I'd much prefer to see you outline your moral views as suggested above.

With thanks.

Thanks Julia. Nice one sistergirl !


AND BIG LOL with Timmy on the cartoon. Nice work.

 

[Sunder]

I like how we have drawn paedophilia and a purple flying unicorn PLUS my very low IQ into this deabte.

Bwahahah aha ahha ha ha aha h ah (insert maniacal laugh here)

Hey sunder ... read my post on "hard wired behavioural patterns for mammals" it might help you somewhat.

Just wait until we hit Godwin's law... Oh wait, never mind. Nazis were on page 2, weren't they?

Link for the mammal thing?

If it says what I think it's going to say, then of course animals also have behaviours we determine as good. We don't even get off the first page of the bible, before we encounter:

God made the wild animals according to their kinds, the livestock according to their kinds, and all the creatures that move along the ground according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good.

You see the world through the eyes of an atheist, who assumes everything is morally neutral until it becomes a survival trait, and then it is "Good" because it helps mammals and humans survive. This then helps you say that "See, even mammals have good behaviour, it's a survival trait".

I see the world through the bible's eyes, which says everything is good, except that which has been corrupted by sin. We can look at the same outcome, and attribute it to a very different source.

The problem with this line of argument is that it will never succeed - you can say "Look, evolution put this into us, it's not design", I can say "Look, God designed it into us, it wasn't an accident". You can see a pile of twigs in a river, and call it detrius, I can see a pile of twigs in a river and call it a beaver dam. The only problem is, neither you nor I have other Gods to compare against to see whether this pile of twigs, or this ball of dirt, was built by accident, or by design.

That said, an evolutionist should wonder why a tasty, slow moving, slow breeding, defenseless animal like a sheep still exists. I can only attribute it to the fact that God has a personal liking for lamb. Used in early Jewish sacrifices, and lots of lamb analogies in the new testament.

 

[Sunder]

My morals tell me it IS NOT OK to strap explosives to your body and blow yourself up. If your morals think this is Ok then my advice is for you to do it well away from me.

Your morals tell you that. A fundamentalist Muslim's morals tell him it is.

A fundamentalist Muslim's morals tells him it IS NOT OK to sleep with a woman before marriage. Yours probably tells you it is.

Who is right, if you have no absolute arbiter?

What right does he have to possibly injure and kill? What right do you have to possibly break someone's heart/leave them with a disease/or an unwanted child?

 

[weird]

I just believe in this day and age, how stubborn people are to admit, I just don't know.

 

[trainspotter]

*There were Nazis on page 2?*

Psychology 101 and some of my own stuff (HEY, I said it was a theory)

Not sure how we got onto a survival thing? Yes, I am a practicing Roman Catholic atheist. Can an animal be corrupted by sin? I thought this was the domain of humanoids only? You know the Ten commandment thingy. Do animals read this stuff?

Ummmm ... no mention of evoluton in my posts that I am aware of is there? Probably about 2 weeks ago there was a bit of deabte going on but none by me lately?

Ever tried to outrun/catch a sheep lately? I bet my money on the sheep.

Checkout psalm 137 chapters 8 & 9 . Come back and tell me it's OK to do that to little kiddies and I will reckon you are OK in my book.

 

[trainspotter]

Your morals tell you that. A fundamentalist Muslim's morals tell him it is.

A fundamentalist Muslim's morals tells him it IS NOT OK to sleep with a woman before marriage. Yours probably tells you it is.

Who is right, if you have no absolute arbiter?

What right does he have to possibly injure and kill? What right do you have to possibly break someone's heart/leave them with a disease/or an unwanted child?

Whoa UP sunder !! You saying OK to blow yourself up because we don't have a reference point compared to hitting a roll in the sack?

REREAD my post on the mammal behaviour thing. It is very clear that RELIGION shapes us to perform these acts.

 

[Bobby]

Think I will just take Julia's advice and walk away. .

Do that , get out of this thread . :disgust:

 

[trainspotter]

Told you it was "TELL IT LIKE IT IS" Monday

 

[Sunder]

Whoa UP sunder !! You saying OK to blow yourself up because we don't have a reference point compared to hitting a roll in the sack?

REREAD my post on the mammal behaviour thing. It is very clear that RELIGION shapes us to perform these acts.

I'm not saying that at all. REREAD my post on absolute and relative morals.

By the way, you haven't linked your mammal post, so I still haven't read it. This thread is 14 pages long by now and you haven't even made it clear it is within this thread, you expect me to find it without you linking it?

 

[Bobby]

Your morals tell you that. A fundamentalist Muslim's morals tell him it is.

A fundamentalist Muslim's morals tells him it IS NOT OK to sleep with a woman before marriage. Yours probably tells you it is.

Who is right, if you have no absolute arbiter?

What right does he have to possibly injure and kill? What right do you have to possibly break someone's heart/leave them with a disease/or an unwanted child?

Hey sunder , why do they have no protection of animals in Muslims countries like we do ( RSPCA ) its because they don't give a **** ! about them .
Would you like to be the arbiter of this ?

 

[Sunder]

Checkout psalm 137 chapters 8 & 9 . Come back and tell me it's OK to do that to little kiddies and I will reckon you are OK in my book.

Who do you think is acting in verse 8 and 9? Are you assuming that it's God? There's no suggestion that it is God, and there's no command to the Israelites to do it, and certainly no continuity to tell Christians to do it.

I'm not sure I want to be okay in your book if blowing people up is not okay, but smashing kiddies on rocks is.

 

[trainspotter]

Post #287 page 15 is where I alluded to mammal behavioural patterns, not that far back in the thread.

 

[Sunder]

Hey sunder , why do they have no protection of animals in Muslims countries like we do ( RSPCA ) its because they don't give a **** ! about them .
Would you like to be the arbiter of this ?

Not sure where you are going with this?

No, I would not like to be an arbiter of this. If the bible says it's wrong, then to me it's wrong, even if another religion says it's okay.

Let me get this straight. I am not defending any religion. I am not even defending Christianity, much less Islam. I am defending the authority of the bible. If the bible has no authority, then it is no better than Buddha saying "Don't kill animals", or Muslims saying "Kill infidels". It is just another relative morals system.

I don't believe the bible is relative. It's absolute. What God designed us for yesterday, applies as much today. Murder hurts today as much as it did when Cain killed Abel.

 

[Sunder]

Post #287 page 15 is where I alluded to mammal behavioural patterns, not that far back in the thread.

Thanks, read it. It did say what I thought it would say, and my argument stays the same.

You say apes have innate good behaviour, and religion enforces it.

I say God put into us innate good behaviour, and religion reminds us of this.