"Alternative" Therapies

[Soft Dough]

So you'd be happy if the "alternative" companies were also able to throw out 5 unsuccessful trials and presented the one and only effective trial?

Do you really think this happens?

1. Other competitors would love nothing more than to disprove a competitor's product.

2. It would open the floodgates of litigation, which they are not prepared to do.

It is called peer review, and it is an excellent checkpoint. Safety data is analysed by FDA etc.

Please tell me, where has any safety analysis been performed on "natural" products, as well as quality control ... oh and any studies on efficacy?

I know which one I'd prefer to trust wrt safety and efficacy.

 

[gav]

Do you really think this happens?

Do you really need to ask? Whether I believe it happens or not is irrelevant, the fact is that can happen because there is no Register of Clinical Trials.

Please tell me, where has any safety analysis been performed on "natural" products, as well as quality control ... oh and any studies on efficacy?

Soft Dough, if you bothered to read my posts properly I have stated several times that I believe natural products should be highly regulated. I am also saying that the regulation for pharmaceutical products in not strict enough.

Oh, and for a natural product to be TGA approved (and it needs to be TGA approved to sell it and claim theraputic value), it IS tested for safety and quality.

This is straight from the TGA website:

http://www.tga.gov.au/docs/html/medregs.htm#apply

"Medicines used to treat serious conditions, or which need to be used under a doctor's supervision, are subjected to a high level of scrutiny and evaluation to determine their quality, safety and efficacy.

Other products, for example many complementary medicines (such as herbal, vitamin and mineral products), are not generally subject to the same level of evaluation and are assessed only for quality and safety."

I left the first paragraph in there because this shows that medicines used to treat serious conditions are subject to a higher level of scrutiny (and so they should be). However I don't believe this "higher level" is good enough, for reasons already stated.

 

[Julia]

Do you really think this happens?

In an earlier post I quoted the book "Bad Science" by Dr Ben Goldacre.
(I think he also has a website.)

I found it an enlightening read, even after many years of exposure to various aspects of the medical industry.

His suggestion that there should be one overall Register of Clinical Trials makes complete sense to me.

Do you not believe that a company will bury a trial which shows their product in a poor light? I can tell you for sure that there are companies which have no compunction whatsoever in doing this. Or alternatively, change the method and/or data while the trial is in progress, until they get a result that says what they want.

Gav, re TGA testing for quality and efficacy in 'natural' medicines which are intended for treating serious illness, I wouldn't have thought there would be too many of these. Do you have any examples?

I have heard a professor of medicine say categorically that there are no natural products which are comprehensively tested for effectiveness by the TGA. He did say they are checked for assurance they contain whatever substance they claim. This imo has nothing to do with their necessarily being effective. I notice on some that I've picked up and looked at that they usually say something like "May assist in the relief of....
......." etc.

Btw, it's a bit unfortunate that you seem to be the only person on this thread with your point of view. Don't mean to be, um, picking on you.

 

[aussiepipe]

Hi,

Here is my point of view as a user of 'alternative' medicines. We use mainly supplements and vitamins but we don't use a naturopath.

Like most decisions in life we need to weigh the costs and benefits and using a doctor or medication is no different. The body is a complex thing and I don't believe 'a' doctor has all the answers. Natural medicines have been used for thousands of years before pharmaceutical drugs came along. But this does not mean I discount drugs because they are relatively new nor should I discount natural remedies because they have not been declared safe set by some govt organisation. There are many examples over the years where these tested safe drugs eg Vioxx have caused many people harm.

I think it is quite easy to argue both sides about misinformation, greed and harm caused by big pharma and the alternative medicine industries. I believe both are needed in our society. For in our family we have needed both. If we didn't have drugs our child's seizures they would not be under control. The costs to the benefit of controlling the seizures is sleeping in till 10 am and its very diffficult trying to get to school if at all possible. However if we didn't follow natural remedies they would not be walking or using the limited speech that they have today. Mainstream medicine told us there was nothing we could do. I have numerous examples of natural therapies working in our family. Basically our approach is to weigh up each individual case on its merits and go from there. For the seizures we started the drugs straight away as we believed it was the best and safest option. However for things like viruses, busted ear drums etc we have used natural medicines.

Whether the 'alternative' medicines should be regulated or not I think comes down to your point of view on governmental control. I think the government controls too much of our lives and taken personal responsibility away. I started reading the Storm thread and people were saying how the clients were foolish and should take responsibility for what has happened. I am not saying people are being foolish by just believing a doctor but we should take more responsibility for our health. We look down at someone who just believes what a financial adviser tells them but it is ok for us to believe the doctor because he/she is all knowing. We do all this research in our investments but don't for our health which I believe is more important than our wealth.

My view is obviously based on my experience and can understand how others believe there should be more regulation. My child has had stomach issues all their life and this causes many issues eg bloated stomach and can't digest food. We have tried 4 different drugs to no effect but through digestive enzymes and recently another type of enzyme the bloating and other issues has gone. Both of these products are banned from being sold in Aust. for no good apparent reason so we get them sent from NZ or the States. They are naturally occuring enzymes in plants.

I know this doesn't follow the last few posts about research etc but I thought i would give a different view of the issue.

Cheers

 

[Prospector]

Not exactly related to the use of Alternative Therapies, although perhaps suggesting a lack of due care in some of these practices, there was a terrible accident yesterday in Adelaide. A mother was attending a Therapy place having a massage and her 21 month old child was playing underneath the lounge the mum was on. The lounge was being lowered when it crashed to the floor, instantly killing the child. (Am I allowed to say how sad that is without Dhukka coming in with his usual line - not that I seem him as he in on ignore)

Just the day before the Therapy place's owner had been named in a Parliamentary commission as making fraudulent claims about being able to cure cancer through massage.

 

[Soft Dough]

Do you really need to ask? Whether I believe it happens or not is irrelevant, the fact is that can happen because there is no Register of Clinical Trials.

point taken,

but the published trials would be highly scrutinised by competitors and regulators, and they would see sources of bias, and neglect in addressing confounders.


wrt the claims of natural medicines being approved.

1. There aren't many ( for a start check Aust L and Aust R ) as many are registered as food supplements
2. Many are used out of indication.

The problem is not only that the products need to be registered more thoroughly, but also that the people selling them need better ethical standards and training ( and need to be able to read a journal article and find the real answers in it )

Soft Dough, if you bothered to read my posts properly I have stated several times that I believe natural products should be highly regulated. I am also saying that the regulation for pharmaceutical products in not strict enough.

I did. I just pointed out that I would prefer 1 trial with proof ( and even as if you suggest 5 are hidden ) as opposed to ZERO and a lot of suspicious practices.


Sorry if I am very sceptical of natural health and procedures of some of the people who sell it, but I actually work in health, and see what is going on, read medical journals, and natural health journals and can tell you, there are a lot of false claims that the uneducated believe.

Do you not believe that a company will bury a trial which shows their product in a poor light? I can tell you for sure that there are companies which have no compunction whatsoever in doing this. Or alternatively, change the method and/or data while the trial is in progress, until they get a result that says what they want.

Sure, but then a competitor only has to replicate a poor trial once stuff all the research. This is in the competitor's best interests.

It very very very rarely happens.

 

[gav]

I have heard a professor of medicine say categorically that there are no natural products which are comprehensively tested for effectiveness by the TGA. He did say they are checked for assurance they contain whatever substance they claim. This imo has nothing to do with their necessarily being effective. I notice on some that I've picked up and looked at that they usually say something like "May assist in the relief of....
......." etc.

Btw, it's a bit unfortunate that you seem to be the only person on this thread with your point of view. Don't mean to be, um, picking on you.

The natural products tested by TGA are tested for quality (they contain what they say they contain) and safety. I stated this in my last post, which is quoted directly from the TGA website.

My views are not that different to yours Julia, and I know you are not picking on me. It's been a healthy discussion and I've learnt quite a bit from it. We both believe that natural products require regulation and that pharmaceutical products require tougher regulation.

The only opinions I have a gripe with are those that completely dismiss alternative medicine, claiming the vast majority is 'placebo'. If this were true, the qualified practitioners of alternative medicine would not be calling for regulation, as Mr Wardle does in the article in the first post of this thread.

Sorry if I am very sceptical of natural health and procedures of some of the people who sell it, but I actually work in health, and see what is going on, read medical journals, and natural health journals and can tell you, there are a lot of false claims that the uneducated believe.

Point taken, but the same can be said about those uneducated in their finances believing Storm financial planners, a point which Aussiepipe raised. We are quick to slam people for not taking responsibility for their own finances and trusting a Storm financial planner... So why can't people take responsibility for their own health, instead of trusting a doctor because he/she is all knowing?

 

[Soft Dough]

So why can't people take responsibility for their own health, instead of trusting a doctor because he/she is all knowing?

I guess you are not a doctor then.

medicine is a very difficult course, it is usually 10-12 years of training until you are fully registered, the education and experience is phenomenal.

There is no incentive like storm to go past the boundaries, in fact most doctors that I have worked with are very conservative.

Naturopaths and homeopaths on the other hand undergo no selection criteria, questionable training standards ( albiet I have also known some very skilled naturopaths who were extremely knowledgable ) and once again are regarded as a viable alternative to someone with 12 years of intense training and variety of experience and knowledge. But if the magic works for ya...

 

[gav]

There is no incentive like storm to go past the boundaries, in fact most doctors that I have worked with are very conservative.

Except when it comes to handing out prescriptions...

 

[Soft Dough]

Except when it comes to handing out prescriptions...

whatever..

Tell you what.

How about you do an experiment.

Go to the doctor, tell them that you have high cholesterol, high blood pressure and are feeling a "bit down".

See what you get prescribed.

Go to a naturopath tell them that you have high cholesterol, high blood pressure and are feeling a "bit down".

I bet they try to sell you $300 worth of placebos, do little or no tests and have no idea what tests to do anyway.

The doctor, will test you before giving any medications, that's what they do.

 

[noco]

In an earlier post I quoted the book "Bad Science" by Dr Ben Goldacre.
(I think he also has a website.)

I found it an enlightening read, even after many years of exposure to various aspects of the medical industry.

His suggestion that there should be one overall Register of Clinical Trials makes complete sense to me.

Do you not believe that a company will bury a trial which shows their product in a poor light? I can tell you for sure that there are companies which have no compunction whatsoever in doing this. Or alternatively, change the method and/or data while the trial is in progress, until they get a result that says what they want.

Gav, re TGA testing for quality and efficacy in 'natural' medicines which are intended for treating serious illness, I wouldn't have thought there would be too many of these. Do you have any examples?

I have heard a professor of medicine say categorically that there are no natural products which are comprehensively tested for effectiveness by the TGA. He did say they are checked for assurance they contain whatever substance they claim. This imo has nothing to do with their necessarily being effective. I notice on some that I've picked up and looked at that they usually say something like "May assist in the relief of....
......." etc.

Btw, it's a bit unfortunate that you seem to be the only person on this thread with your point of view. Don't mean to be, um, picking on you.

Hi Julia, have noted your comment "May assist in the relief of.........
That has to be stated on these natural alternatives to protect the supplier from litigation if it does not work.
Some things work for one but not others due to imo the genes we inherit.
Some homosexuals can be exposed to HIV/AIDS and never get it.

Some people develope cancer and can conquer it where others can't.

Some people can be exposed to ASBESTOS but never developes into ASBESTOSIS or MELOTHEMIOMA (Ithink that is the way they spell it ).

I was exposed to lots of asbestos in the late 1940's and have carried PLURAL PLAQUES around my lungs for my whole life.

However, during to a routine X-ray in August 1998, it was revealed I had developed a HISTYISOTOMA the size of a can of coke which was attached to my heart and left lung.

Having had this growth removed in the open heart surgery fashion which was attached to my heart and left lung, my surgeon informed me three days later that this growth was malignant and I had less than five years to live. Nobody in the medical profession would dare suggest it may have been caused from asbestos, although in the USA evidence has been produced referring to tumors developing outside the lung. I applied for compensation, but was informed that if I had survived more than 40 years, I had little chance of success.

I went a radium course for six weeks as suggested by the medicos which they stated "MAY help eliminate the cancer dregs". However, some two weeks before I started the radium treatment and during this treatment, my daughter who has been in the Pharmacy business for 32 years, strongly recommended I take three capsules of SHARK FIN CARTLEGE every day. On the 4th,5th and 6th week of radium, my oncology Doctor kept asking me could I swallow because the radium "cooks the asophalis" ( may be not the correct spelling) anyway its the tube that takes food from the mouth to the stomach, to which I replied in the affimative. He could not understand untill I told him I was taking SHARK FIN CARTEGE.

Following my radium treatment, I read a book written by Mr. Ron Gellatley N.D. "How to fight Prostrate Cancer and WIN", so I decided to give his treatment a go because the medicos could not gaurantee the radium treatment being successful.

His treatment was the use of a formulae named 'LAC-TO-MAX'. now called MAXIFERRIN. This formulae is made up of :-

*Lactoferrin from the first week's milk of a cow after having given birth.
*Collustorm ditto ditto.
*Bovine cartlege which is 9 times stronger than shark fin cartlege.
*Cats claw herb from South America.

Combining the ingredients with a high Beta Cerutone diet (carrots) and lots of Vitamin "c", he bought his PSA down from 125 to .5 in 6 months after being told he had less tha 6 months to live. The theory behind all this is the combination cuts down the blood supply to cancer cells and increases your imune system.

I took this formulae for ten years and after my sheduled 5 year clearance from my oncology doctor, he stated he was watching another growth forming below my collar bones and above the one that had been removed. He could not understand why it had disappeared in the period 2 years after radium treatment. I informed him of the treatment I had learned from Ron Gellatley and whilst he was unaware and a little sceptical of my success, he nevertheless said, if you have faith in something by all means do it.

I must also confess at this point in time, that I had practised YOGA for some years of which incompasses meditation. If one has the right state of mind it can help.

Julia, whilst this may have worked for me, it may not have the same result for someone else. Hence the statement we so often read on alternative treatments, "IT MAY ASSIST IN THE RELIEF OF.............

Hope you find this of interest.

 

[robots]

hello,

perhaps some people might like to inform ASF members where pharmaceuticals originate from and how they are "farmed"

you can get penicillin on your orange

thankyou
associate professor robots

 

[gav]

whatever..

Tell you what.

How about you do an experiment.

Go to the doctor, tell them that you have high cholesterol, high blood pressure and are feeling a "bit down".

See what you get prescribed.

Go to a naturopath tell them that you have high cholesterol, high blood pressure and are feeling a "bit down".

I bet they try to sell you $300 worth of placebos, do little or no tests and have no idea what tests to do anyway.

The doctor, will test you before giving any medications, that's what they do.

LOL touchy subject? In fact judging from your reply, you may want to go check your own blood pressure :

You may get someone try to sell you placebos and not do any tests if you seen someone who was not qualified (which is why the industry needs to be regulated), however if you seen my g/f when she was practicing she would have asked you to provide evidence for your high cholesterol (test or letter from doctor) before prescribing what she believed was best (I have no idea what she'd prescribe). As for the blood pressure, she can test that herself (and yes she IS qualified to do that). Depending on the client's circumstances the first thing she'd recommend aerobic activity, and maybe a magnesium supplement and/or hawthorn berry supplement - unlike the many GP's whom her clients have come from who end up with side effects from blood pressure meds without even being recommended aerobic activity...

 

[IFocus]

A friend earlier this year was diagnosed with Non Hodgkins. He was pretty much on his death bed no platels etc

He had everyone come out of the woodwork offering natural remedies etc.

The Fremantle Hospital staff told him to ignore everything and follow their treatment and advice.

He did and hes back at work looking and feeling like a million dollars..........nice to know a good story for a change seems many around me falling over with some insidious cancer.......

 

[gav]

medicine is a very difficult course, it is usually 10-12 years of training until you are fully registered, the education and experience is phenomenal.

Unfortunately their years of training and experience mean little if they prescribe something that has had insufficient testing. You may argue that alternative medicines have not had any testing for efficacy, and I agree with this. However, for prescibed drugs to be recalled shows they have had initally had insufficient testing, and should not have been prescribed in the first place. Unfortunately it is costing people their health, and often their lives.

 

[Soft Dough]

LOL touchy subject? In fact judging from your reply, you may want to go check your own blood pressure :

You may get someone try to sell you placebos and not do any tests if you seen someone who was not qualified (which is why the industry needs to be regulated), however if you seen my g/f when she was practicing she would have asked you to provide evidence for your high cholesterol (test or letter from doctor) before prescribing what she believed was best (I have no idea what she'd prescribe). As for the blood pressure, she can test that herself (and yes she IS qualified to do that). Depending on the client's circumstances the first thing she'd recommend aerobic activity, and maybe a magnesium supplement and/or hawthorn berry supplement - unlike the many GP's whom her clients have come from who end up with side effects from blood pressure meds without even being recommended aerobic activity...

Not touchy, just wanting to put it into perspective.

1. Where would have the evidence for high cholesterol have been obtained from?

the doctor? Please provide evidence that any natural health medicine is any more effective than atorvastatin.

2. What evidence is there that hawthorn works, and please quantify blood pressure reduction and relative risk reduction compared to an angiotensin 2 receptor antagonist ( a medicine which delivers excellent results )

3. Please confirm that there have never been any side effects to Hawthorn.

4. Good doctors will also recommend lifestyle changes.

5. I have seen many examples of anaphylaxis from natural products, naturopaths prescribing medicines to pregnant women with echinacea, eucalyptus, subtherapeutic folate. People being prescribed medicines for schizophrenia who were a danger to society without real treatment, and have seen many examples of placebos being prescribed for no apparent reason apart from snake-oil salesman technique placebo driven incompetence.

Unfortunately their years of training and experience mean little if they prescribe something that has had insufficient testing. You may argue that alternative medicines have not had any testing for efficacy, and I agree with this. However, for prescibed drugs to be recalled shows they have had initally had insufficient testing, and should not have been prescribed in the first place. Unfortunately it is costing people their health, and often their lives.

Recalled drugs? which ones. I can recall a couple over the last 10 or so years - Vioxx, Prexsige ( same class, and the evidence is still a bit inconclusive )

It is impossible to test for absolutely everything, perhaps some research into how clinical trials are conducted would help. Are you aware of how they are conducted, the peer review that they are exposed to, the different stages of trials and the FDA procedures for approval?

couple of questions.

1. How many people have died in Australia from drugs prescribed that were subject to recall?
2. How many patient years have been saved due to medicine intervention in the past 10 years?

Unfortunately their years of training and experience mean little if they prescribe something that has had insufficient testing.

100% agree, so no matter what training is given, remove 90% of all natural products off the shelf immediately.

 

[robots]

hello,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillin

see: production

so much undiscovered/untested flora which will provide many pharmaceuticals in the years to come

maybe in a pill today but very much in a plant (fungi) yesterday

thankyou
associate professor robots

 

[Soft Dough]

hello,

perhaps some people might like to inform ASF members where pharmaceuticals originate from and how they are "farmed"

you can get penicillin on your orange

thankyou
associate professor robots

oi robots, stick to housing, you are good at that

stop giving naturopaths ideas, next thing they will truly believe that eating oranges can help with bacterial infections !

True most original medicines a derived from plants ( I can remember studying phytochemistry back in the day )

but thankfully they are purified, measured, modified to improve affinity and efficacy, bioavailability, selectivity etc.

thank goodness for biochemists, pharmacologists, chemists, pharmacists etc.

 

[gav]

Soft dough, I can list many, many examples of incompetence of doctors, as you have listed for alternative medicines. It does proves nothing except there are bad in both.

Atorvastatin side effects include abdominal pain, allergic reaction, back pain, changes in eyesight, cold, constipation, diarrhea, dry eyes, dry skin, flu symptoms, gas, hair loss, headache, heartburn, indigestion, inflammation of sinus and nasal passages, itching, joint pain, leg cramps, muscle aching or weakness, purple or red spots on the skin, rash, sore throat, urinary problems, vomiting, weakness and occasionally liver damage.

If I suffered from any of those and found an alternative that kept my cholesterol levels down, I'd certainly use it - even if it lacked research.

Too many doctors over prescribe. SD, do you have any ideas how this can be combated?

 

[gav]

The doctor, will test you before giving any medications, that's what they do.

Is that so? Based on American findings, but still very relevant.

Misprescribing and Overprescribing of Drugs
http://www.worstpills.org/public/page.cfm?op_id=3