Victorian Fires

[kincella]

channel 10 news on now in vic...a bloke built a bunker in last 3 days...at the entrance is a huge tree...if the tree came down they would all be crushed underneath...its made of timber inside with reinforced steel....and covered in dirt...walls appear to be made of tin on the inside....there is no deflection material for the radiant heat.... an entrance leads into a square room at the end....god help them
I hope somebody brings that to his attention.....especially the tree, couple of feet away from the entrance....
growls...grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr......

 

[MrBurns]

A comprehensive guide on what to do and what not to do in summer should be delivered annually to each home in the bush.

Everyone has an opinion and most of it is wrong in one way or another.

 

[sam76]

i believe something like this already happens through local brigades (depending on the area), Mr. Burns.

http://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/publications/homesafety.htm

cheers,

 

[kincella]

calliope...good points from you...and agree

 

[sam76]

however the reality of fires coming at his house on 3 different fronts, and the ball of fire coming at him out of the sky...was very different to the instructions...
other survivors have mentioned the fire not only came at them at the front door, the sides of the house and the back door ,,,all at the same time....

This is called ember attack, Kincella.

 

[MrBurns]

i believe something like this already happens through local brigades (depending on the area), Mr. Burns.

http://www.cfa.vic.gov.au/publications/homesafety.htm

cheers,

I guess it is but tips on building a bunker and so on, comprehensive guide otherwise people will do their own thing and cook when they have to use it, there must be dozens of do's and dont's, put it in an attractive RED hard cover and deliver it to every household to be kept in the house near the phone as a manual.

With an opening line, '"If you're reading this and can smell smoke put it down and get out ......fast."

 

[sam76]

I agree with your theory, but the science of bunkers etc.. hasn't been proven.

Everyone has different personal situations and we all live in different environments.

10 kms down the road from a bunker approved area could be completely unsuited to bunkers etc... (for example)

The book would be a 1000 pages long and would no doubt end up as an expensive coaster...

I'm still a stickler of the simple fire triangle (remove one element and you take away the fire)

Fuel is the easiest element to remove from this triangle.

Bigger clearings around houses (enforced on a yearly basis, perhaps by the local brigades as a form of fundraising) and proper firefighting equipment to all those that rebuild is the broadest, most effective soulution IMHO

Adding to that - compulsory community meetings/training at the start of the season to reenfore the message etc... would be a great idea as well.

Again, it would be difficult to police and enforce attendance.

but it's a start.

 

[MrBurns]

I agree with your theory, but the science of bunkers etc.. hasn't been proven.

Everyone has different personal situations and we all live in different environments.

10 kms down the road from a bunker approved area could be completely unsuited to bunkers etc... (for example)

The book would be a 1000 pages long and would no doubt end up as an expensive coaster...

I'm still a stickler of the simple fire triangle (remove one element and you take away the fire)

Fuel is the easiest element to remove from this triangle.

Bigger clearings around houses (enforced on a yearly basis, perhaps by the local brigades as a form of fundraising) and proper firefighting equipment to all those that rebuild is the broadest, most effective soulution IMHO

Adding to that - compulsory community meetings/training at the start of the season to reenfore the message etc... would be a great idea as well.

Again, it would be difficult to police attendance.

but it's a start.

People I know have someone next door who has a bunker with oxygen tanks in, he's no fool and knows the risks but that would work. Most people would blow themselves up I guess.

Keep it simple, clearing around houses to a height and distance to be determined and enforced by council regulations, the opposite of what some are doing now and community areas football field sized areas with a large secure building maintained by council via rates levy. This could be used for other things in the meantime but would be there for the years ahead when these circumstances are repeated.

Nothing is perfect but this will happen again, there's nothing surer and the time to think of solutions is now.

 

[Prospector]

Yes Calliope, I suspect the rawness of what has happened is beginning to wear off, and the question of how we could have let it happen is beginning to set in. And we can deal with that honestly without people taking offence. And how well or otherwise the nation has reacted, the motivations can be scrutinised without being considered as being offensive or showing a political bias. And the reality of how poorly or otherwise Councils, and experts have handled land development. How we react to gross disaster but deal poorly with individual experiences.

And of course, we are all very mature here, aren't we! Now, about Bris Connections, can we get any level of agreement on that one?

It will happen again, it will happen in Adelaide and our hills are so close to the CBD. If we get the ember fire, well, even our house could be at risk and I live 6k's from the GPO!

 

[Julia]

A taxpayer, in letters to the editor, in The Australian is critical of a suggestion that the taxpayers should bail out the uninsured householders who lost their homes in the bushfires. I think the number of these is about a quarter of the total.

But hasn't this decision already been made by Mr Rudd. I am sure I heard him pledge to rebuild all the homes. Those more responsible people who insure their home and contents (and their vehicles) may think this unfair. But it has always been Mr Rudd's policy to look after the improvident.

And I think the precedent has already been set. I am fairly sure that after the Canberra fires in 2003 the uninsured were reimbursed by the taxpayer.

So the message now is don't waste your money insuring your house we will bail you out anyway. I'm keeping this in mind, as every year I up my insurance in order to rebuild if a cyclone gets me. Maybe I won't do that anymore and use the premium for a trip to NZ instead.

There was a segment on the 7.30 Report this evening about the insurance situation. The above quote of 1 household in 4 being uninsured is apparently correct. The other interesting fact offered by, I think, the insurance council is that out of every dollar of insurance premiums about 40 cents is a levy to the CFA. So householders taking responsibility of insuring their properties are also "buying the services" of the CFA if required.

This seems to be a double insult to the whole insurance system when people who don't insure still expect the big red fire engine with all the hardworking firies to come and save them, even though they have failed to participate in funding the system.

This frankly really stinks. And then for Rudd to promise to spend our tax dollars to rebuild their houses in the same hazardous area beggars belief.
How about letting them accept the consequences of their inaction for a change.

I'd also like toknow just how the donated funds will be dispersed. Googling bush fire appeals shows 14 different appeals. Does anyone know the total of funds contributed to date?

Only a couple of months ago a cyclonic storm wreaked devastation on parts of Brisbane. Many houses were completely destroyed and many more substantially damaged. I don't remember hearing about any appeals for these people, neither do I remember Mr Rudd promising to rebuild these houses.

How about FNQ with the floods? Has Mr Rudd promised to repair all your houses up there with the flood damage?

Not sure what is happening interstate, but there is an increasing level of 'growl' in the media that the people in the bushfire are getting tax relief, mortgage relief, bank relief whilst others who suffer an 'individual' crisis (cancer, housefire, accident etc etc) are ignored. And those who are uninsured will get their house back. Listening to the radio, one of the commentators was someone who had put in a major effort at getting several pantecs off interstate with donated goods last week - yet even she is getting antsy about the inequity.

Good to know there is some awareness of the inequity starting to surface.

It would have been a much wiser Prime Minister who would have held off on the emotional stuff at the start and said that we will evaluate the situation when more is known. It looks as though the donations will rebuild many of the houses (has anyone done the calculations on this?) and thus his extravagant declarations are now seen to be overkill.
But hey, who cares! He has been seen to be the good guy, overwhelmed with compassion and sadness, pledging every last dollar to fix everything once again.

 

[Smurf1976]

Bob Brown has lashed out at critics of his forest management policies. With his usual slippery sleight of hand he has tried to turn the criticism back on his critics claiming they are are being nasty to the victims and surviviors by blaming them for living there, etc.

This is a very cynical guy. I think Brown and other greens have a gene which causes a mental block which prevents them from being able to admit they are wrong.

Wrong, wrong and wrong again.

Wrong about a supposed power "surplus" - now we struggle to keep the lights on.

Wrong that burning wood in towns and cities all winter for heat was going to help the environment. Anyone who likes clean air might disagree there.

Wrong that it makes sense to export woodchips and import pulp. Now the once great mills seem set to close completely, throwing many out of work.

Wrong that there's plenty of oil.

Wrong that there's nothing wrong with burning coal (yep, that's what was claimed in the 1990's, well after the general public became aware of climate change).

Wrong that a service economy which produces no real wealth is sustainable.

Wrong that we shouldn't keep fuel loads down in the bush.

Right? Well he did point out on many occasions that burning oil was cheaper than building renewable energy sources so I'll give credit where it's due. Right at the time it was, although it's no longer the case. And I'm not sure how burning oil fits with being an environmentalist, but anyway.

And I'll give some credit for some of the social policies, trying to stop hatred and so on. Top marks for that one the rest doesn't look so good.

Much the same could be said about Labor and Liberal though so I'm not saying the Greens are necessarily any worse. But they weren't "proven right" as they claim, at least not on the major issues they've been associated with that I've mentioned above.

 

[Smurf1976]

It will happen again, it will happen in Adelaide and our hills are so close to the CBD. If we get the ember fire, well, even our house could be at risk and I live 6k's from the GPO!

Fly over Adelaide and it's clearly obvious that it's a city surrounded by trees.

First time I went there, I wondered why the plane was flying so low because all I could see was trees and a few houses. It turns out I needed to be sitting on the other side to see the city, but I think the point is pretty clear. No shortage of vegetation around Adelaide.

And it's the same with any smaller town anywhere near the bush. In practice, the bush is up to the edge of the town / city when you stand back and look from a distance. All are disasters waiting to happen, and someday they will.

 

[Smurf1976]

There is an appalling lack of understanding going on in this thread.

Much of the outer Melbourne (and some inner) suburbs were in a lot of danger last Saturday because of the dry conditions in suburban gardens, low humidity and high winds.

TFB days (Total Fire Ban) always come with the warnings to implement fire plans or leave early. There are 4-10 of these each year. There is no gradation of TFB days. Over the last 25 years, on 99% of TFB days and for 99% of people, to evacuate/ implement fire plans when warned was a waste of time.

There are many examples/times when the warnings have gone out that "the conditions are as bad as Ash Wednesday" yet only a few small fires occurred.

Exactly the point I've been trying to make. You said it better than me though...

It's naive to think that a large number of people in the outer parts of the major cities aren't at risk. There was certainly a risk on that day across just about the whole of Vic apart from central parts of Melbourne (as distinct from some of the suburbs).

I'm not going to continue on this point, I think it's getting a bit personal, but if there was going to be a meaningful evacuation then it would have involved basically the entire state in terms of geographic area, some suburbs of Melbourne included.

Add in evacuations in parts of SA and NSW, plus the reality that the risk would have extended to all of Tas if we'd had a strong northerly wind bringing the heat down, and it's a rather massive task to be evacuating everyone at risk. Well over a million people in total.

Maybe evacuation is the answer. I don't really know to be honest. But I'm just pointing out that to pursue that policy does involve a massive logistical exercise that's going to be repeated several times each Summer. Maybe we ought to do that, but I just can't see it actually happening.

On the other hand, if we leave it to evacuation only under "exceptional circumstances" then how do we make that decision? I'm sure most people were expecting some fires on that day, but not on the scale of what actually happened. How do we reliably predict that we'd have a major inferno that day? More importantly, how could we say on earlier days with similar conditions that there would not be a fire? I just don't think we can predict it that accurately and we'd end up with a lot of evacuations "to be safe" - which leads to the boy who cried wolf scenario.

 

[Prospector]

Not so sure it would have been a matter of 'cry wolf' on Saturday Smurf. As mentioned, we were given the most dire forecast in Adelaide. And the day was truly evil. Everyone knew that with the slightest fire there would have been no chance of stopping it. So when the day passed with no fire, there has not been 1 murmur that the BOM or CFS (in SA) overreacted at all, just a massive sigh of relief. Then we heard about Victoria and we knew it was going to be bad. But I guess if everyone had been ordered from their homes (probably by 6am Saturday morning would have worked) then maybe a different story.

Dont we need to build into the people who CHOOSE to live amongst the timber - If you live there, we will not be able to protect your home. If you stay and fight, we will not be able to protect your life. Why the hell should the CFS put their lives at risk for someone else's stupidity, life choices and laziness. Might actually make some of these people think about it first.

BUT BUT BUT - in SA our Government collects an Emergency Services Levy from every householder - compulsory. Separate from Insurance. This is for firefighting. So these people will rightly argue that they are paying for protection!

 

[Calliope]

And of course, we are all very mature here, aren't we! Now, about Bris Connections, can we get any level of agreement on that one?

Yes we can. And your statement "and we can deal honestly without people taking offence" sums it up

 

[Calliope]

Wrong, wrong and wrong again.

Sorry to have upset you. I know it is a heresy to suggest a Greenie could ever get it wrong. But I also thought that the State and Local Authorities who pander to the Greens must assume the greater blame. After all I assumed they knew better. I thought they would be well aware of the recommendations of the previous fire enquiries.

However as a remote observer of this tragedy my opinions obviously can't carry the same weight as a Tasmanian with more fire and wilderness experience.

So maybe I am wrong.

 

[kincella]

I note the police are concerned about the information widely available on facebook about the latest arsonist, with concerns for him and his family.

On a CA ch 7 last night, that arsonist was now working with the RFS rural fire service at Woolgoola NSW...last offence committed over 15 years ago...he had served 6 years jail. The RFS would not comment, but ch7 said they would leave it up to the locals to work it out. Arson detective suggested the arsonists are never cured, and receive no counselling in jail.

See todays news a 31 yr old pregnant woman sentenced to jail...she had 7 children but non were in her care now.

Australia presently showing how immense 'of drought and flooding rains' it can produce at the same time.

The silence on the floods in FNQ is deafening, when compared to the satuation the Vic fires received, and attention from all and sundry, including the PM.
Message to PM...Hello.....Qld is part of Australia
fnq needs to be declared a disaster zone....they need help now.....

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25066080-421,00.html

 

[daisy]

Australia presently showing how immense 'of drought and flooding rains' it can produce at the same time.

The silence on the floods in FNQ is deafening, when compared to the satuation the Vic fires received, and attention from all and sundry, including the PM.
Message to PM...Hello.....Qld is part of Australia
fnq needs to be declared a disaster zone....they need help now.....

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25066080-421,00.html

I've been thinking the same thing. The attention given to the fires is such that many people in flooded regions are donating their relief money to the bushfire appeal and even having fund raisers, not for their own communities, but once again for bush fire appeals.
The cynic in me is starting to think there's a huge amount of political manipulation in this.

 

[kincella]

daisy...I think its more the loss of life here in Vic that has driven this frenzy about the fires....but since I am more of an animal person...I would think the animals are faring just as badly in Qld....
its like the Dianna thing...and others, the young ones focus on...its unreal

article today saying no one is overseeing all this money, and the duplication of services between towns....
over 100 million in donations for the fire victims..... has there been any money donated to the flood victims....???
the media have a lot to answer for....and the politicians are weak at any time
too many photo opportunities...to be seen to be doing something...but nothing is happening....

 

[Prospector]

the media have a lot to answer for....and the politicians are weak at any time
too many photo opportunities...to be seen to be doing something...but nothing is happening....

This is going to sound really, really strange I know, almost perverted. But we are so desperate for rain in Adelaide (4mls since January 1) that it is really difficult identify with the concept of too much water. And this is really weird, I see pictures of some of the flood areas and I see green and I am , well, jealous. A flood would solve so many of South Australia's problems, that the 1 month clean up it would involve would be welcome. And I have experienced a flood so I do know the mess that it involves.

The fire victims - we can really identify with!