Victorian Fires

[sam76]

The speed of a fire front advancing will double with every 10 degree increase in slope so that on a 20 degree slope, its speed is four times greater.


Spotting can occur up to 30 kilometres downwind from the fire front.

finally, some useful facts.

 

[dirty_harry]

I've fought fires and I can tell you that the radiant heat is something that you cannot prepare for by watching it on tv. Being 50m away from forest fires can be like putting your head 10cm from a radiator. Saturday really must have been hell on earth.

Because of the speed, intensity and unpredictability it was something different this time. Even in ash Wednesday there was more time and opportunity to take evasive action.

People were given the option to stay and protect their houses. This turns out to be poor advice for houses that were surrounded by forest. There were some situtations where there was nothing people could have done to avoid death short of leaving. Awful. Very sad.

 

[prawn_86]

Is there any way people can donate aside from to the Red Cross?

I dont want to donate to that appeal as i saw an interview with the CEO of the Red Cross and he said all the funds would be managed and distributed by the Vic government, and I dont want the gov handling the money i donate cause they wont be efficient with it.

 

[Smurf1976]

As for keeping vegetation green. There's a very big drought on people. When water gets scarce you have to make choices about what gets some and what doesn't.

I'm not saying people couldn't have prepared better, but let's not leap to conclusions just yet. How about those of us not directly affected allow for the possibility that at least some of the people who died were not stupid and did make preparations. Sometimes you just can't prepare for what actually happens.

Ghoti

Agreed with what you're saying.

My point about keeping vegetation around houses green is that we should have built dams, pipelines, desal, water tanks or whatever years ago so we had the water to do it. In engineering terms, that problem is fixable.

 

[inrodwetrust]

Is there any way people can donate aside from to the Red Cross?

I dont want to donate to that appeal as i saw an interview with the CEO of the Red Cross and he said all the funds would be managed and distributed by the Vic government, and I dont want the gov handling the money i donate cause they wont be efficient with it.

There's always the salvos, might be worth a try

http://salvos.org.au/about-us/media-centre/documents/20090208-bushfire-and-floods-relief-appeal.pdf

Although their fund is a general disaster fund that includes NQ floods... not sure if you can direct only to vic fires or not.

Correction you can @
http://www.salvos.org.au/

=========

Just how practical is it to develop a fire blanket suitable for cars? might be something worth looking into. Clearly some challenges to overcome but...it's only got to work once.

 

[Smurf1976]

IMO the idiots that casually flick a burning cigarete butt from their cars are just as criminal as the arsonists that deliberately light fires. When they catch whoever lit these fires that have claimed lives, they should be charged with murder and be put away for ever.

In 2006 we had serious fires around Hobart with both the Eastern and Western shores alight. That night, driving a couple of km from where the fires had been contained to, I saw someone throw a lit cigarette butt out their car window. Let's just say that is the first and only time I've committed an act of road rage...

If you want to smoke then that's your business. It's not illegal and it's your right to decide. But you don't have the right to set the place on fire in the process.

 

[Smurf1976]

I'm not wanting to blame anyone. It's too late for that now. I'm just offering what I believe is an additional under-utilised resource as a possibility for inclusion in a plan for future catastrophic fire events, which forecasters are predicting to become more common over time.

It's a similar situation between the states. NSW, SA and Tas have all sent people to help in Vic but to a large extent that didn't happen until after the inevitable meetings etc decided it was necessary.

I'd say yes, use the military where that can help. We've got people already being paid, equipment sitting there etc so it makes sense to use them if they can help.

And perhaps look at co-operation with New Zealand as well on things like this since it's really not that far away by air. We help put out fires in the US after all and that's a lot further to travel.

All that said, the immediate need is to get the fires out any way we can before the next hot weather and strong winds. And of course to help the victims with immediate accommodation, food, clothing etc as well as helping them rebuild their lives.

 

[ghotib]

Agreed with what you're saying.

My point about keeping vegetation around houses green is that we should have built dams, pipelines, desal, water tanks or whatever years ago so we had the water to do it. In engineering terms, that problem is fixable.

Ackshully I only half agree with what I was saying An enormous amount can be done by changing the kind of vegetation you plant and maintain around houses.

I'm not sure about the place of big water infrastructure. In emergencies like these fires it's very likely that you'll have to rely on local and individual water storage and pumping (because the power is out). OTOH, bringing water in before the emergency helps maintain local supply. OT3rdH, if it was possible to pipe water around from place to place as easily as switching electricity around the grid, how would you know where the next really big fire emergency was going to be? And OT4thH, dams, pipelines and water tanks can't make the rain fall.

Ghoti

 

[Judd]

Just some interesting stuff from the CSIRO web-site on bushfires - there is plenty more there as well. Anything written or co-authored by Phil Cheney is well worth a read.

 

[Julia]

4) Finally what is the chance that Rudd will rejig his $42 billion package to reduce the amount given to all households and send the difference to the people and communities so far affected ? I think it would make far more sense socially and financially. Getting $900 rather than $950 and knowing we were part of the communities support for flood and bushfire sufferers would be a good look.

Great suggestion. I'd opt for more than $50 to be diverted in this way.

i



now wonder how those people will cope getting centrelink money if they have no identification ???????

The Manager of Centrelink was asked about this on radio interview today.
He gave the assurance that their staff are trained to deal with this aspect and people should go to the Emergency Shelters where there will be Centrelink staff including a Social Worker.

Is there any way people can donate aside from to the Red Cross?

I dont want to donate to that appeal as i saw an interview with the CEO of the Red Cross and he said all the funds would be managed and distributed by the Vic government, and I dont want the gov handling the money i donate cause they wont be efficient with it.

All the banks have been collection points for the Nth Qld flood victims.
I'd be surprised if they don't do the same for the fire victims.

 

[Julia]

As someone who is safe and far away from all the devastation, I'm still feeling quite sick and distressed about it all.
I just can't begin to imagine how it must feel to have lost members of your family, loved pets, and everything you own.

 

[Prospector]

Just one little comment to make. If someone loses a loved one, their house, clothing, pets etc due to a 'one off' electrical fire, then other than perhaps a note on the news, there is little attempt to help these people yet they have lost as much as most in these bushfires. They certainly dont receive anything from either State or Federal governments. I just think there is an inequity in how we deal with 'major crises to the masses' as opposed to 'major crises to the individual'

Not saying of course, that we shouldnt be doing everything we can in this crisis, but maybe we should also think about other situations too.

 

[daisy]

Just one little comment to make. If someone loses a loved one, their house, clothing, pets etc due to a 'one off' electrical fire, then other than perhaps a note on the news, there is little attempt to help these people yet they have lost as much as most in these bushfires. They certainly dont receive anything from either State or Federal governments. I just think there is an inequity in how we deal with 'major crises to the masses' as opposed to 'major crises to the individual'

You are right. But at least where I live in NQ a newspaper article attracts lots of willing contributions from other members of our community. I've spent most of today putting stuff together from my house to send to a friend in Ingham who has lost all her fabriccy things in the floods. Clothes, mattress, linen etc. But when an entire town is wiped out nobody has any cupboards to empty and share, So I guess this is why the gov't steps in??

 

[Smurf1976]

Ackshully I only half agree with what I was saying An enormous amount can be done by changing the kind of vegetation you plant and maintain around houses.

I'm not sure about the place of big water infrastructure. In emergencies like these fires it's very likely that you'll have to rely on local and individual water storage and pumping (because the power is out). OTOH, bringing water in before the emergency helps maintain local supply. OT3rdH, if it was possible to pipe water around from place to place as easily as switching electricity around the grid, how would you know where the next really big fire emergency was going to be? And OT4thH, dams, pipelines and water tanks can't make the rain fall.

Ghoti

I'm thinking of the research done after the Canberra fires a few years ago. Basically, those who kept the garden green were less likely to have the house burnt than those who didn't water.

As for the water infrastructure, the purpose of that is simply so that people can water the gardens and keep them green. Not a difficult thing to do as far as engineering considerations are concerned, but for political reasons we instead have a system of "water restrictions" in many parts of the country. These restrictions have as their intention a reduction (or in some cases outright elimination) of water use on gardens with the consequence that everything dries out. According to what fire authorties in Tas say on the subject, dry things are more of a hazard than those that are kept watered.

I'm not saying that a green lawn is going to stop a bush fire. It won't. But if proper research (by CSIRO from memory) has found there's some benefit in having a well watered garden then I think people sould be free to use (and pay for) as much water as they find necessary to achieve that. It's not as though there's a physical reason why it can't be supplied, it's purely politics that's stopping it.

We don't run a planned economy in anything other than water - the Premier doesn't run around telling you how many apples to buy or how many cashew nuts to eat with threats of fines for anyone who disobeys the order. People decide what amount to use and purchase it. Let them do the same with water and build whatever supply is needed to meet that demand. It's not as though there's physical scarcity of the stuff when you've got individual rivers in Tas and northern Australia flowing more out to sea than the entire consumption of Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth combined.

 

[MrBurns]

There now saying there should be mass evacuations when the conditions are that bad, people were told it was bad but wern't told that what has happened was a possibility, the warnings weren't strong enough.

If after being notified of a mass evacuation people could do as they please but at least they would have been told they may perish.

Most in that circumstance wouldnt hang around to try and save a house.

That lesson should have been learnt after Ash Wesnesday.

 

[Prospector]

I'm thinking of the research done after the Canberra fires a few years ago. Basically, those who kept the garden green were less likely to have the house burnt than those who didn't water.

I'm not saying that a green lawn is going to stop a bush fire. It won't. But if proper research (by CSIRO from memory) has found there's some benefit in having a well watered garden then I think people sould be free to use (and pay for) as much water as they find necessary to achieve that. .

Victorians arent allowed to water outside. At all!

 

[tech/a]

Just one little comment to make. If someone loses a loved one, their house, clothing, pets etc due to a 'one off' electrical fire, then other than perhaps a note on the news, there is little attempt to help these people yet they have lost as much as most in these bushfires. They certainly dont receive anything from either State or Federal governments. I just think there is an inequity in how we deal with 'major crises to the masses' as opposed to 'major crises to the individual'

Not saying of course, that we shouldnt be doing everything we can in this crisis, but maybe we should also think about other situations too.

I wouldnt be so sure about that.

 

[biggles]

no we are allowed to water, twice a week between 6 and 8 in the morning but only a hand held hose. We are supposed to only use 155 litres a day per person.
We live in a bushy area not far from Kinglake and have had meetings with the CFA to learn how to protect our homes... create our fire plans.
We were told amongst other things to have wheelie bins with water dotted around our house with mops to put out embers, wait for the fire to pass overhead and then pop out of the house and douse the little embers.
I think the fires came so quickly upon the town that no one had time to implement their plans.
Surely this town would have had many meetings setting up fire plans. How could so many houses burn down if they had worked?
It was a firestorm which tore the roofs off some houses, with embers all over the place and temperatures in the high 40s.
It was 46 in the shade at our place. I think the fires hit in the evening to make matters worse with so much smoke so visibility was very limited. The wind went from north to south when the change came in which caught them out. Hopeless

 

[nunthewiser]

is these fires threatening anywhere nr OLINDA

thanks in advance

 

[Julia]

We don't run a planned economy in anything other than water - the Premier doesn't run around telling you how many apples to buy or how many cashew nuts to eat with threats of fines for anyone who disobeys the order. People decide what amount to use and purchase it. Let them do the same with water and build whatever supply is needed to meet that demand. It's not as though there's physical scarcity of the stuff when you've got individual rivers in Tas and northern Australia flowing more out to sea than the entire consumption of Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne, Adelaide and Perth combined.

I completely agree, Smurf, even just as a general principle distinct from fire considerations. It's ridiculous that because of proper planning and provision of infrastructure, people should have to live with such austere water restrictions.