Trying minors as adults

[Julia]

Green, whilst I can understand the basis of your suggestion that parents should be held responsible, there are many cases where this would be completely inappropriate.

I'm thinking particularly of friends of ours with six children. Warm, loving people with sensible and responsible approach to child rearing.
Five of those kids were terrific, but one was from age about 12 for ever in trouble. In late teens was a totally dysfunctional junkie. His parents tried everything. In his mid 20's he more or less became functional.
Those parents treated that child no differently from the other five.

And, honestly, where parents really are responsible for the illicit or immoral behaviours of their children, it's usually because they simply know no better themselves, i.e. didn't ever have any good modelling in their own young lives.

 

[Green08]

Green, whilst I can understand the basis of your suggestion that parents should be held responsible, there are many cases where this would be completely inappropriate.

And, honestly, where parents really are responsible for the illicit or immoral behaviours of their children, it's usually because they simply know no better themselves, i.e. didn't ever have any good modelling in their own young lives.

Yes I understand the in certain cases it maybe inappropriate however. If a child is going off the rails and the parents know it and tried to reach them to no avail. Have they sourced professional diagnosis? It may not be a sinister problem but one that can be remedied through minor decisive treatment. The Aunties and Uncles Programme. The Big Sister or Big Brother Programme to give the child access to another (Well Vetted) adult for timeout and new ways of doing things.

Should a child be given access to another adult and learn to feel comfortable in their presence over time the tension can break down and eventually they talk. I don't know your friend's circumstances but their child obviously didn't murder, rape or maim a human? There is also the order of birth. Generally held the youngest one has a much easier ride vying for attention than the 1st born.

Prawn asked a general question of trying minors as adults. I am focusing on the extreme. Crime is a broad based in act.

White Crane - how would you have treated the death of James? Faced with 2 10 year old murders?

Putting them in an adult jail is not the answer neither is community service. The system really needs an avenue to deal with rare but serious youth crime in a different facility. Money and lack of resources will be the government's problem.

 

[Julia]

Green, it was a long time ago, not a current situation. The kid had every intervention available. His parents were a doctor and a social worker!

 

[Green08]

Julia - I wasn't judging.

My dad who gave me beatings and strangulation was a Specialist Doctor!!! My mother standing by was a nurse. I've seen her beaten many times with blood on her face. Back then, - no one talked. If only we had today's Laws!

None of his colleagues would have guessed what the hell was going on. He had two completely different sides. The only ones who got an idea of his temper were the nurses. His patients thought he walked on water.

When I went to the police in my 20's it was the first time anyone had told him NO. I didn't push charges; I wanted him to know first hand from the law where he stood. I was sitting there with a swollen black eye and bruise marks on my arms. He was told clearly that they had the right to strip him of any Medical Duties and removed from the AMA if I decided to go ahead.

He sat silent. Admitted to doing what he did and was ordered to NEVER touch me or my children again or I would press charges. He now has a record.

People can say "are you crazy for not charging?" There was a battle in me for him to change and be my father. I know now he can't change, refusing any help and walks away if I confront him on the devastation it caused me.

I have always said he was a great Doctor and still is, just an incredibly nasty Father. I understand his past and that of my mother but they had to chance to break the chain and didn't. I did.

The biggest part of healing it forgiveness. I forgave them but don't want contact.

 

[Sir Osisofliver]

Green,

Thank-you very much for sharing what must be difficult and painful memories. It gives a unique perspective and I can see why you would feel so strongly about parental responsibility and the provision of strong role models for children, much like myself.

As I said before my parents broke up when I was a child. What I didn't say was how bad that break up was or the fallout it caused in my family. Our circumstances seem similar (although yours sounds much worse than mine). my mother (and to a lessor extent myself) were also victims of domestic violence. At the age of 11 I stepped between my father and mother during a beating and had two ribs broken as a result. Luckily my father realized he had gone to far and the act of violence aginst her children gave my mother the courage she needed to leave him.

The damage that this causes can be difficult to overcome and let go. My brother became a full blown junkie, my sister engaged in some risky behaviour and came back pregnant to the family home at the age of 17 for example, my younger brother got in trouble with the law on more than one occassion before the age of 20 when he managed to straighten himself out.

I'm saying this because I guess I can see the temptation to blame the family environment and hold the parents responsible for the actions of their children in extreme cases of criminal behaviour. It's tempting, very tempting indeed to try and lay blame towards the dysfunctional family environment for the poor choices of my siblings, but as I said before it's a very slippery slope. You say it's maddening that in extreme cases of violence to just persecute the child and then have the parents not held accountable for their actions.

Unfortunately whilst I can appreciate your position I do still respectfully disagree. It's not cut and dried, their could be a myriad of reasons behind a dysfunctional family and trying to make a one-size-fits-all change in legislation... I can see it creating more problems than it fixes.

In the case of James and faced with two ten year old murderers...is there any right way of dealing with it? If you could make the parents partially responsible, how would that have made the situation any better?

Sir O

 

[Happy]

Definition of minor is a bit arbitrary. I think above 16 a person should be considered as an adult in the court of law.

On other extreme 17 years and 364 days old or 17 years and 365 days old on leap year not adult and day older adult, does not seem that right either.

 

[Green08]

In the case of James and faced with two ten year old murderers...is there any right way of dealing with it? If you could make the parents partially responsible, how would that have made the situation any better?

Sir O

Thank you for sharing your story. I told mine in the hope that anyone reading will not feel isolated if negative things have happened, they can change their life for the better. Any adults who have engaged in violence might think twice of the outcome.

To be clearer. Once an action has been taken it can't be taken back, they must live with the reaction.

As I have mentioned ideally each case should be dealt with individually but we lack money, resources, time and commitment.

In extreme cases beyond a doubt, yes the person should be charged with the full force of the law appropriate to the crime. In some rare cases as in James's additional punishment - treatment should be taken. I don't know what. I'm not in the field of making laws.

I do NOT believe children should be put in adult prisons where they’re raped; learn better techniques in crime, become resentful, bitter and a bigger danger to society when released.

There should be some kind of government programme to employee more professionally trained physiatrists (Dr’s) to correctly evaluate potential problems, existing problems and various forms of treatment to assist the individual in some sort of rehabilitation - if possible. The treating Doctor should have available updated education at all times. Like most things the rewards for this type of work to Doctors should be equal to the responsibility, it rarely is, so the incentive to give the best is not encouraged.

Self esteem is essential. Achieving attainable goals in rehab develops confidence, self awareness, realisation of a brighter future and other benfits

As far has holding the parents/guardian/caretaker responsible (parent)

* You can't put them in jail.
* You can't change their mode of thinking or lifestyle choice no matter how irresponsible unless they want the change.
* I think what would be helpful is to have them in the room with the juvenile with the crime coherently and in simple terms explained, outcome of crime, what may have lead to the action, etc. If there are alternative ways to change behavior of either. The parent usually does have more than one child and potential children in their care.
* Those juveniles that have records should be taken to an adult prison and shown what the system is like. The results of doing this in the US had a impact on reduced juvenile offences. They think it’s cool until shown reality.

People do things for the simple reason they don’t know there is an alternative. Making people aware of choice is paramount to assisting rehabilitation and reducing crime.

A responsible parent would know this raising a child, correcting them gently and firmly. When children are shown respect they give it back and so it should be as the parent/guardian is the model.

You are only as good as your environment and the one you choose to create.

We have limited monetary resources. Let’s hope in the future better educated parents given the support they need raise responsible youth. The jail system is over crowded, a burden to tax payers and doesn't solve the problem.

 

[2020hindsight]

Thanks green - some memories there

changing topic a bit ...
I was listening to the ABC this morning, and they were talking about bicycles requiring CTP (compulsory third party) insurance.

So I thought to myself - that's all very well for adults who use shared paths as if they own em ... and in the end they are supposed to give way to pedestrians ( as they go past as 40kph)

but surely you wouldn't impose that on a kid learning how to ride a bike in a suburban side street. .

PS Lol, I remember teaching one of my boys to ride a bike - age about 4 or 5 I guess ... big oval with a single tree over to one side, about the size of a small Xmas tree. Anyway sure as heck, he ran into the tree (because he was watching it lol) -

I said "Thought I told you not to look at the tree"
He answered indignantly (with a heap of scratches) ... "It wasn't me daddy, JESUS made me do it."

 

[Naked shorts]

You are only as good as your environment and the one you choose to create.

If only more people knew about this.

Thanks for that post green

 

[Pat]

Thanks green - some memories there

changing topic a bit ...
I was listening to the ABC this morning, and they were talking about bicycles requiring CTP (compulsory third party) insurance.

So I thought to myself - that's all very well for adults who use shared paths as if they own em ... and in the end they are supposed to give way to pedestrians ( as they go past as 40kph)

but surely you wouldn't impose that on a kid learning how to ride a bike in a suburban side street. .

PS Lol, I remember teaching one of my boys to ride a bike - age about 4 or 5 I guess ... big oval with a single tree over to one side, about the size of a small Xmas tree. Anyway sure as heck, he ran into the tree (because he was watching it lol) -

I said "Thought I told you not to look at the tree"
He answered indignantly (with a heap of scratches) ... "It wasn't me daddy, JESUS made me do it."

Good story 2020

CTP's and rego for push bikes eh?

Sounds like the govt is cashing in.... again.