Trying minors as adults

[chops_a_must]

I think that rape for instance, could be one of those crimes that it takes an adult brain to get around, because of the complexities of understanding when a female says no, when she doesnt actually say no. Like on a date.

You can now be convicted of rape when a woman says yes.

Can an adult brain understand that?

 

[chops_a_must]

Definition of minor is a bit arbitrary. I think above 16 a person should be considered as an adult in the court of law.

Why?

They can't vote, half aren't allowed to drive a car. So why should they be?

You can't give them that responsibility when they don't have the corresponding rights as well.

 

[sam76]

Every generation grows up faster than the last.
Therefore 18 should not be consider an adult anymore.
16 should.

 

[chops_a_must]

Every generation grows up faster than the last.
Therefore 18 should not be consider an adult anymore.
16 should.

And eventually the age of consent should be dropped to 2?

 

[mayk]

Why?

They can't vote, half aren't allowed to drive a car. So why should they be?

You can't give them that responsibility when they don't have the corresponding rights as well.

It is society which decides when to let youngsters drive or drink or vote. It varies according to region. Some states of the US allow youngsters to drive at 16. Recently they raised the age for legal drinking from 18 to 21 in US. There is a renewed movement to turn it back started by no other than the chancellors of Universities.

Laws can be changed, again the constitution of US was changed to let 18 years old vote in 1970 I guess. It is dynamic and I think at 16 most of your moral conduct is set. Either you understand and obey the law or you don't.

I agree with giving the right to vote and drive (not drink though) to be lowered to 16.

Off topic:
You can solo drive a motor cycle at 16 not a car, strange isn't it.

 

[sam76]

And eventually the age of consent should be dropped to 2?

Well society does need to move with the times...

 

[chops_a_must]

Off topic:
You can solo drive a motor cycle at 16 not a car, strange isn't it.

Only scooters.

 

[mayk]

Only scooters.

Any motor bike/scooter/vespa under 250 cc in Victoria and in NSW there is a power to weight ratio number I can't remember.

 

[Green08]

No matter what law you put in place those that want to break them will.

We live in an 'old money' suburb and have a neighbor who has 'parties' for is kids. They are always memorable for the rest of the street!

His daughter had her 15th a few months ago. A letter was sent to the neighbors letting us know. Gosh! How nice! Now we know when to double lock the doors and call security!

The night ended with 4 police cars and a paddy van. (Typical for this neighbor). The first police officer to get out of his car was beaten by 3'young' boys as we watched from our balcony - my daughter was terrified. Completely off their faces with vodka - you know the one that they put in Peat's Ridge water bottles.. The neighbour had not learnt from the previous year's party!

These 'kids' knew exactly what they were doing filling those bottles up. Took the police 40 mins to get them under control.

Money, position, education, will never stop peer pressure only an individual's will.

As far as trailing them. It is very difficult to place an age on it. I don't think it is a matter of growing up as it is exposure to influences, their chemical and genetic makeup.

Some young ones should be trailed and treated. Remember toddler Jamie Bulger

"The two boys were aged 10 when they killed two-year-old Jamie, after abducting him from a shopping centre on Merseyside. Had they committed the crime a few months earlier, they would have been below Britain's appallingly low age of criminal responsibility and could not have been tried even in a juvenile court. Yet they were tried in an adult court against a background of a hysterical witch-hunt by politicians and the media.

The British legal system was forced to publicly acknowledge one of the worst judicial abuses of recent years last week, when the two boys convicted in 1993 of killing toddler Jamie Bulger were deemed eligible for release.

Jon Venables and Robert Thompson could be freed early next year(2001), following a ruling by the Lord Chief Justice Lord Woolf. Britain' senior judge said on October 26, "I set a tariff that will expire today. This will enable the very difficult task of deciding if and how these young men should return to society to begin."

Care to explain the logic of this anyone?

 

[prawn_86]

I can see both sides of the arguement, i just totally disagree with politicians and the court system bending the laws when it suits them.

We have a legal age limit when one becomes an 'adult' therefore that limit should be adhered to by everyone IMO.

 

[Green08]

Prawn

I undestand where you are coming from and it is the few bad apples that throw the legal system into public turmoil.

Here is a case from India that is confirmed what about all the other ones never mentioned. There are proabably hundreds.


http://www.crimelibrary.com/news/original/...ller_news2.html

BEGUSARAI, India - Authorities may have arrested the youngest serial killer in the world. Police claim that eight-year-old Amardeep Sada has murdered three children in the past year. Sada was caught yesterday while attempting to bury the remains of his third victim, a six-month-old girl, in a nearby field. Following the discovery, Sada freely admitted to killing the young girl. Police say he brutally strangled her to death. After police took the boy into custody, his uncle came forward and admitted that his nephew had killed at least two other children in the past year.

 

[Pat]

No matter what law you put in place those that want to break them will.

We live in an 'old money' suburb and have a neighbor who has 'parties' for is kids. They are always memorable for the rest of the street!

His daughter had her 15th a few months ago. A letter was sent to the neighbors letting us know. Gosh! How nice! Now we know when to double lock the doors and call security!

The night ended with 4 police cars and a paddy van. (Typical for this neighbor). The first police officer to get out of his car was beaten by 3'young' boys as we watched from our balcony - my daughter was terrified. Completely off their faces with vodka - you know the one that they put in Peat's Ridge water bottles.. The neighbour had not learnt from the previous year's party!

These 'kids' knew exactly what they were doing filling those bottles up. Took the police 40 mins to get them under control.

Money, position, education, will never stop peer pressure only an individual's will.

As far as trailing them. It is very difficult to place an age on it. I don't think it is a matter of growing up as it is exposure to influences, their chemical and genetic makeup.

Some young ones should be trailed and treated. Remember toddler Jamie Bulger

"The two boys were aged 10 when they killed two-year-old Jamie, after abducting him from a shopping centre on Merseyside. Had they committed the crime a few months earlier, they would have been below Britain's appallingly low age of criminal responsibility and could not have been tried even in a juvenile court. Yet they were tried in an adult court against a background of a hysterical witch-hunt by politicians and the media.

The British legal system was forced to publicly acknowledge one of the worst judicial abuses of recent years last week, when the two boys convicted in 1993 of killing toddler Jamie Bulger were deemed eligible for release.

Jon Venables and Robert Thompson could be freed early next year(2001), following a ruling by the Lord Chief Justice Lord Woolf. Britain' senior judge said on October 26, "I set a tariff that will expire today. This will enable the very difficult task of deciding if and how these young men should return to society to begin."

Care to explain the logic of this anyone?

Good post green.

I voted yes, adult crimes should incurr an adult penalty. Anyone over the age of 15 yrs knows right from wrong. A 15yr old Brit was gaoled recently, he kicked a guys inhaler out of his hands after he assulted him, the bloke died as a result. The 15 yr was given 13 yrs, he'll be 28 by the time he's released... a fitting punishment.
Though sometimes I wonder if people like this should return to society.

 

[fimmwolf]

adult crimes should incurr an adult penalty

I'd like to know what an "adult crime" is.

 

[xoa]

Good post green.

I voted yes, adult crimes should incurr an adult penalty. Anyone over the age of 15 yrs knows right from wrong.

So you also think 15-year-olds should be allowed to vote, drive, and buy alcohol?

 

[fimmwolf]

You can't give them that responsibility when they don't have the corresponding rights as well.

That sums up nicely what I think about the issue.


I also feel that a 16 year old is not an adult.

Furthermore, the crime itself should be irrelevant in determining how they are tried.

If they are children, they should be tried as children. To do otherwise would be unjust.

 

[prawn_86]

If they are children, they should be tried as children. To do otherwise would be unjust.

Bolded part should be changed to "IS unjust", as it is already happening.

 

[Green08]

In 1992, fifteen-year-old Jose Martinez and two older companions tortured and decapitated an eight-year-old boy in San Jose, California. Under California law at the time, the two youths over age sixteen were tried in adult court and sentenced to life imprisonment without possibility of parole. Even though Martinez's sixteenth birthday was only three weeks away, his case was heard in juvenile court, where the maximum sentence confined him in a juvenile detention center until his twenty-fifth birthday, when he would be released. An outraged public quickly mobilized to lower to fourteen the age at which a child could be tried

The examples I've given are extreme however they need to be taken into the context of law. How do you define the age limit? Sorry but decapitating a human is obviously wrong and should incur a severe penalty.

Should any youngesters do murder or rape there is something seriously imbalanced with their mind. In some cases you can not rehabilitate a human no matter how young if they deem a certain action acceptable. It can be confusing bringing in specialists; however I believe that the general poplulation's safety comes first, no matter what age a heinous crime occurs.

It is my understanding that humans in juvenile centers or jail generally don't conform to acceptable behavior once released. Sometimes it is looked upon as an achievement by the peer circle.

How much should tax payers put towards the rehabilitation?

Results: The annual cost of providing prison methadone in NSW was estimated to be AUD$2.9 million (or $3,234 per inmate per year).

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18036344

The published recurrent cost in NSW for one prisoner for a day during the 2005-06 year was $189.70. This figure, which equates to $69,000 per annum, does not include capital costs,

www.beyondbars.org.au/BBA FINAL FACTS/CostEffectivefinal.doc

 

[Pat]

I'd like to know what an "adult crime" is.

Something a child wouldn't do... murder, rape etc. (you'd think) http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=669654
This is "an adult crime".
Not sure if he was tried as an adult...

It will always depend on the situation, and I'd like to think that the law doesn't just treat these children as adults for conveniance. Sometimes it's just.
I think removing the above individual from society for 13 yrs is a fitting punishment, though I feel if he's put in any normal gaol It would not be for the better... not a perfect world...

 

[Pat]

So you also think 15-year-olds should be allowed to vote, drive, and buy alcohol?

Probably not, They can be so reckless, much like the older "p" platers now days, I was one of them once.
I always knew my reckless driving was wrong, as with my drinking at parties etc, thats why it was fun.
Murder and rape never seemed fun (I don't think the thought crossed my mind), just plain wrong.

All said, 15 yr olds are still capable of voting, driving and drinking... IMO they need to develop drinking and driving skills in a private arena, then they can go public.
Voting... It's way over rated...

 

[Pat]

The examples I've given are extreme however they need to be taken into the context of law. How do you define the age limit? Sorry but decapitating a human is obviously wrong and should incur a severe penalty.

Should any youngesters do murder or rape there is something seriously imbalanced with their mind. In some cases you can not rehabilitate a human no matter how young if they deem a certain action acceptable. It can be confusing bringing in specialists; however I believe that the general poplulation's safety comes first, no matter what age a heinous crime occurs.

It is my understanding that humans in juvenile centers or jail generally don't conform to acceptable behavior once released. Sometimes it is looked upon as an achievement by the peer circle.

How much should tax payers put towards the rehabilitation?

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18036344

www.beyondbars.org.au/BBA FINAL FACTS/CostEffectivefinal.doc

I agree Green.

If it makes others feel better, don't treat them as adults, but give them special treatment... as children...