Religion IS crazy!

[Sean K]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

What a lot of rot. That is a statement without much thought. WHO run most of the charities with VOLUNTEER help, is it ST.Vincents, The Salvos etc.

Call me a skeptic, but would any of the religious based charities hope to convert, or 'save', anyone they provide a lunch to? Hmmmm

But, I'm a skeptic.

 

[Julia]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

What a lot of rot. That is a statement without much thought. WHO run most of the charities with VOLUNTEER help, is it ST.Vincents, The Salvos etc. Our local op shop, where the proceeds are gifted to the needy (and they don't have to be christians). I think it is run by a group which is multi denomination.The reason I'm not sure is because they don't push the point. Most of the workers are there to help the needy and are not asking for anything more than to feel as though they are helping someone.
Go and help the salvos sometime it will be a learning experience that will make you a better person. To help them you may have to go to the front line in a war, a fire tragedy, a flood disaster, out in the cold to feed the homeless, or something just as inconvenient.

Nioka, various other community organisations with no religious affiliations provide help.
And plenty of volunteers do what they do with no religious guidance or stimulus, just a reasoned wish to contribute to their community and help others. Nothing to do with God at all.

Agree about the Salvos, though. They are about the only bunch of religious people who will unquestioningly pick up a drunk from the gutter (literally) and care for people without foisting any stuff about God on them as a condition for the help.

 

[nioka]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Call me a skeptic, but would any of the religious based charities hope to convert, or 'save', anyone they provide a lunch to? Hmmmm

But, I'm a skeptic.

I guess some try and a lot hope but most will accept people for who they are and will help someone that needs help without any religous overtones at all. If they are handing out soup or a blanket on a cold night it is not done with any strings attached. Get involved and see for yourself.

 

[nioka]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Nioka, various other community organisations with no religious affiliations provide help.
And plenty of volunteers do what they do with no religious guidance or stimulus, just a reasoned wish to contribute to their community and help others. Nothing to do with God at all..

Agreed with 100%, but the topic here seems to be denigrating religious people as a whole. My reply was to a statement that religious people will not give something "unless there are brownie points"

 

[disarray]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

If we only rely on the law to establish rules we will soon become a police state.

that will be the end result of our "open" society because we insist on importing cultures that have serious defects in them.

as a society we've been lumbered with all this cultural guilt (i'm really pissed off about the "200 years of white lies" hung on the MCA in front of sydney harbour) so all of our values and the identity based upon it are under constant attack. we don't know what we stand for anymore (or feel we are no longer allowed to stand for it), so instead we've adopted some limp wristed cultural and moral relativism to fill the gap where everyone is a precious and unique snowflake, so and so annoying behaviour has to be tolerated, and there's no need to push yourself to succeed because winning isn't important and someone else will eventually pay for you anyway.

a nation with a strong religious / philosophical backbone doesn't need rafts of laws to govern everything because behaviour will be governed by culture. but now we are multicultural so we need laws that say you can't kill your daughter because she won't marry your husband of choice, or you aren't allowed to mutilate the body parts of babies etc because what is obvious to us isn't always obvious to others.

it's not so bad here in australia, luckily our national character is quite robust, but i despair for the state of england and the rest of europe. westerners really need to find their identity and reaffirm the values they stand for in real terms, and not just keep on mouthing platitudes in the hope it will stop various minorities bitching.

 

[Knobby22]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

What a lot of rot. That is a statement without much thought. WHO run most of the charities with VOLUNTEER help, is it ST.Vincents, The Salvos etc. Our local op shop, where the proceeds are gifted to the needy (and they don't have to be christians). I think it is run by a group which is multi denomination.The reason I'm not sure is because they don't push the point. Most of the workers are there to help the needy and are not asking for anything more than to feel as though they are helping someone.
Go and help the salvos sometime it will be a learning experience that will make you a better person. To help them you may have to go to the front line in a war, a fire tragedy, a flood disaster, out in the cold to feed the homeless, or something just as inconvenient.

I agree Nioka.

My area has a St Vinny's (Catholic)
Salvo's (Salvation Army)
Community Op Shop (Anglican)

The Salvation Army and St Vincents have volunteers on the ground with facilities to help the needy and they work with the dregs of society. The hopeless alcoholics, young adults, mentally unwell and drug users. I know as I have helped. One used to be a doctor, another a judge so you can see all types of perople end up living in the streets with their family's deserting them. Maybe they asked for it. Maybe John Dawkins would say they should be euthanised to help society.

Many of the other charities that are non religion based pay their collectors, pay the guy organising them, pay the people doing the charity. The guy who owns it uses it to make tax breaks yes.. I'm looking at you Steve Vizard . They charities often are helping children or cats. Anything to do with tugging of heart strings.

The other non-religous charities that get money and people do donate their time are usually to do with diseases e.g. breast cancer, heart disease etc. These are fine charities but it is often the case that the people involved have had that particular disease touch their lives and they want to do something about it. That is fair enough but it is the religous charities that do the horrible no hoper stuff.

Did you know that when AIDs first reared it's head, in the US, no one would even touch them. That is why Mother Theresa sent out her nuns and set up hospitals to help in the US though they were Indian based.

The works the Salvos are doing near where I work is fantastic. The seflessness of the people is amazing and no they don't spout religous stuff at anyone.

No one is perfect.
Christianity recognises the weaknesses of the flesh. I have nothing but respect for Catholics and Salvation Army people. That is why the turnout was so good for the youth festival.

 

[Knobby22]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

What a lot of rot. That is a statement without much thought. WHO run most of the charities with VOLUNTEER help, is it ST.Vincents, The Salvos etc. Our local op shop, where the proceeds are gifted to the needy (and they don't have to be christians). I think it is run by a group which is multi denomination.The reason I'm not sure is because they don't push the point. Most of the workers are there to help the needy and are not asking for anything more than to feel as though they are helping someone.
Go and help the salvos sometime it will be a learning experience that will make you a better person. To help them you may have to go to the front line in a war, a fire tragedy, a flood disaster, out in the cold to feed the homeless, or something just as inconvenient.

I agree Nioka.

My area has a St Vinny's (Catholic)
Salvo's (Salvation Army)
Community Op Shop (Anglican)

The Salvation Army and St Vincents have volunteers on the ground with facilities to help the needy and they work with the dregs of society. The hopeless alcoholics, young adults, mentally unwell and drug users. I know as I have helped. One used to be a doctor, another a judge so you can see all types of perople end up living in the streets with their family's deserting them. Maybe they asked for it. Maybe John Dawkins would say they should be euthanised to help society.

Many of the other charities that are non religion based pay their collectors, pay the guy organising them, pay the people doing the charity. The guy who owns it uses it to make tax breaks yes.. I'm looking at you Steve Vizard . They charities often are helping children or cats. Anything to do with tugging of heart strings.

The other non-religous charities that get money and people do donate their time are usually to do with diseases e.g. breast cancer, heart disease etc. These are fine charities but it is often the case that the people involved have had that particular disease touch their lives and they want to do something about it. That is fair enough but it is the religous charities that do the horrible no hoper stuff.

Did you know that when AIDs first reared it's head, in the US, no one would even touch them. That is why Mother Theresa sent out her nuns and set up hospitals to help in the US though they were Indian based.

The works the Salvos are doing near where I work is fantastic. The seflessness of the people is amazing and no they don't spout religous stuff at anyone. St Vincents do their work even more secretely than the Salvos, the work they do is amazing.

No one is perfect.
Christianity recognises the weaknesses of the flesh. I have nothing but respect for Catholics and Salvation Army people.
That is why I am happy the turnout was so good for the youth festival.

 

[Rafa]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

I don't care if people want to go to a church, sing songs, pray, chant, etc, (even taking communion which seems pretty silly to me). But I do object when those people tell me I am missing out, living an immoral existence, or otherwise failing to appreciate the reality of life, if I don't want to do the same.

Completely agree Julia...
But then again, you are one of the few atheist I know who doesn't actually preach the religion of atheism.

the fact is, most people like to think they have got it right, and most people like to tell others about that, and whilst there is nothing wrong with that... to simply say its the religious who love preaching when you only have take one look at the ABC to realise there is a significant amount of preaching also coming the other way, is a bit harsh.

(beleive me, i know, as being a christian, with plenty of atheist friends, i am constantly the focus of their conversion attempts... this forum itself if full of the holier than thou athiest preachers)

the key to this is tolerance... if an atheist is going be intolerant and ridicule someone else's beliefs then, in my humble opinion, they are no different to the very people they are so dead against!

 

[Julia]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

That is fair enough but it is the religous charities that do the horrible no hoper stuff.

Not exclusively, Knobby.
I have worked as a volunteer Emergency Relief Counsellor for a community organisation which has no religious affiliations whatever for over twelve years. Frequently complicated problems are dealt with by St Vinnies, Salvos and one other church organisation combining with us to meet the full cost of some situations.

I know all about the "horrible no hoper stuff". I have had people throw up alcohol induced vomit at my feet, frequently had to sit in the same room with people who smell vile because they haven't washed for a week or more, but who still also stink of alcohol and tobacco, had someone threaten to "slit your jugular" because I declined to give him gambling money.

None of that is unusual at all. Neither are the huge numbers of people who use their tax payer funded benefits to continue making poor lifestyle choices then want the tax payer to pay their electricity bill.

But amongst all this, there are genuinely needy people whose stoicism and courage in the face of the most horrible lives just leaves me in awe.

Nothing like being prepared to make a contribution to this section of our society to bring your own petty dissatisfactions right back into perspective.

 

[bassmanpete]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Agreed with 100%, but the topic here seems to be denigrating religious people as a whole. My reply was to a statement that religious people will not give something "unless there are brownie points"

Nioka, you obviously ignored the smiley after my comment.

 

[bunyip]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

You don't, but it does help by establishing guidelines and setting boundaries. The fact that some religious people overstep them or overemphasise them doesn't alter the guidelines or the boundaries. Is there a better set of guidelines than those set with the ten commandants?

Agreed that the 10 commandants are probably the best set of guidelines on how to live life as a decent person. And if I hadn't been raised as a Christian I'd probably never have been aware of them.
But at the core of Kota's confusion is his failure to realise that there are many decent people in the world who don't believe in God, yet they still lead lives of integrity and consideration for others, basically in line with the 10 commandments.
I know, because I'm one such person.
You do not have to be Christian and God-worshipping to be a decent person leading a wholesome life.
And if you do belong to the camp that believes in and worships God, it most definitely is not a guarantee that you're a good and decent person.
My goodness.....the sort of behaviour I've seen from some of the religious/Christian fraternity is so rotten it would make your toenails curl.

 

[bassmanpete]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

the key to this is tolerance... if an atheist is going be intolerant and ridicule someone else's beliefs then, in my humble opinion, they are no different to the very people they are so dead against!

I for one am happy for everyone to believe whatever they like, although to me it's silly to let someone else decide what you should think or believe. The only thing I am intolerant of is attempts to teach creationism as science. That's not a big problem here in Australia (although I personally know creationists who home school their kids) but is an ongoing battle in the USA where creationists are elected to state education boards.

 

[chops_a_must]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Completely agree Julia...
But then again, you are one of the few atheist I know who doesn't actually preach the religion of atheism.

Atheism isn't a religion though. By definition it can't be.

But what about us agnostics?

 

[bunyip]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

I thought if you were Catholic you could pretty much do what you liked and then just vist your local Priest, confess your sins, a few Hail Mary's and away you go. (seemed to work for the God fearing members of Mafia).

Unfortunately that's what many Catholics believe. And the Catholic church does little to dispel these beliefs, from what I can see. On the contrary, they seem to encourage them. I'm not saying that they encourage people to do wrong, but they definitely teach that you can wipe the slate clean simply by heading for the confession box. A few minutes telling the priest what a bad girl or boy you've been, and he declares your sins forgiven.

I saw this in action first hand with a mate of mine. He and I were in Brisbane together for ten days while the Brisbane Exhibition was on....a couple of young blokes down from the country, visiting the big smoke for a bit of R & R.
One night we went out with two young ladies we'd charmed on to at a night spot the previous evening. After an enjoyable few hours at a restaurant, followed by drinks at a classy hotel, they announced that they'd better be getting home. So we rang a taxi, and waited outside the pub with them until the taxi arrived.
I said goodnight to them when the taxi turned up, but my mate Bill jumped into the taxi with them and disappeared. Apparently his lady had invited him home to her place for a bit of action.
3 o'clock next morning I'm woken by Bill banging on the door of my room. He asked me to make sure I woke him by 8am so he could get to mass by 9.
I said 'Why are you so keen to get to mass eh Bill......were you a naughty boy last night'?
Bill gave a sheepish grin and admitted that things had got a little physical between him and his lady. "But no problem mate", says Bill, "I'll go to confession and square everything up with the priest".
So I woke Bill at 8, as requested, and off he went to mass. When he arrived back at our hotel a couple of hours later, I asked him how it went. He grinned and said "No worries....I'm pure again".

And that, my friends, is a true story.

 

[Wysiwyg]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

:
Originally Posted by nioka
If we only rely on the law to establish rules we will soon become a police state.

that will be the end result of our "open" society because we insist on importing cultures that have serious defects in them.

Hi, what would these cultures with serious defects be please?

The one most obvious is "hip-hop" which involves property damaging graffiti, abusive lyrics in music, schizophrenic drugs and gang/ghetto mentality.Many of us rebel against `the machine` but this culture attracts aggressive and violent minded youths.

 

[Rafa]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Atheism isn't a religion though. By definition it can't be.

But what about us agnostics?

Well, technically, an atheist believes there isn't a GOD... (i.e a definite position), means it might as well be a religion.

not sure about agnostic... in its purest form, NO, it can't be a religion, as an agnostic suspends judgement or is indifferent to the presence or lack there of, of God. But when an agnostic simply rejects the probability of God full stop, then for all intents and purposes... that is the same as an athiest.



bunyip,
if you are to go to confession, it must be for the purpose of admitting guilt and comitting to not re-offend. the key being the words with which the priest ends the confession... Go and sin no more!

Its actually the basis for the modern justice systema the process of rehab. we all know there are plenty who abuse that system too!

 

[bunyip]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Agreed that the 10 commandants are probably the best set of guidelines on how to live life as a decent person. And if I hadn't been raised as a Christian I'd probably never have been aware of them.
But at the core of Kota's confusion is his failure to realise that there are many decent people in the world who don't believe in God, yet they still lead lives of integrity and consideration for others, basically in line with the 10 commandments.
I know, because I'm one such person.
You do not have to be Christian and God-worshipping to be a decent person leading a wholesome life.
And if you do belong to the camp that believes in and worships God, it most definitely is not a guarantee that you're a good and decent person.
My goodness.....the sort of behaviour I've seen from some of the religious/Christian fraternity is so rotten it would make your toenails curl.

Let me qualify that.....some of the 10 commandants are definitely nonsense, but there are some good ones among them as well. Overall they provide a pretty good blueprint for leading a decent life and being a decent person.

 

[bunyip]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

bunyip,
if you are to go to confession, it must be for the purpose of admitting guilt and comitting to not re-offend. the key being the words with which the priest ends the confession... Go and sin no more!

Its actually the basis for the modern justice systema the process of rehab. we all know there are plenty who abuse that system too!

Thanks Rafa, for clearing that up.
However, they do sin again, and again, and again, and go back to confession again and again, and are forgiven again and again.

The whole confession thing fosters an attitude of "If I sin, no worries...I can easily be forgiven simply by going to confession'.

So in my humble opinion, it defeats its own purpose.

 

[bunyip]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Agreed that the 10 commandants are probably the best set of guidelines on how to live life as a decent person. And if I hadn't been raised as a Christian I'd probably never have been aware of them.
But at the core of Kota's confusion is his failure to realise that there are QUOTE]

Sorry Kotim, for getting your name wrong.....not like me to be so careless.

 

[Muschu]

Re: Religion gone crazy!

Interesting topic.
I am not a practising Christian but I did volunteer work as a counsellor, for a year or so, for a Catholic-based drop-in centre for the homeless and people with a myriad of issues.
At times this was a dangerous environment. For me this was only occasional. for regular staff it was continous. I remember, on one occasion, "calming" a huge guy in a drug-induced state for over an hour, knowing he had needles and knives on him, while waiting for the police to arrive.
The paid staff worked for pretty much the minimum wage. I never once heard religion raised as an offer or as an issue. They had no monetary ambitions other than keeping food on the family table. Their entire focus was on the difficult task of how best to help others. Entirely selfless and based on the welfare of others.
There are good people everywhere.