David Hicks leaves prison today

[Julia]

2020 and Rederob
I simply said that I found the article quite interesting because, frankly, that's all it was to me. I wasn't promoting Faris's point of view or disputing it.
I read it, thought it might add something to the debate, posted it and forgot about it.

I agree with those who have suggested it's time to hopefully let him fade into obscurity, as has Mr Habib as far as I can tell.
I don't imagine any of us have ever met him, and are therefore not privy to his thoughts. My impression (and that's all it is) is that he was a not very bright young man, somewhat of a misfit, who was attracted to the idea of adventure in a foreign country. Perhaps his comprehension of the politics of the people he trained with was somewhat superficial. Or perhaps he really hated America, had no respect for Australia, and was quite clear about his intentions. I have no idea and doubt anyone on this forum has either.
Rederob, you say he was tortured, or at least imply it. How do you know this?

Whatever the case above, I absolutely do not support his detention without trial. He has been well and truly punished - if that was required - for his stupidity and that should be that. Over. Let's all move on.

I will, however, be interested in any book/film deals and how that is handled.

 

[2020hindsight]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/28/2104231.htm

Army captain pleads guilty to stealing rocket launchers
Posted Wed Nov 28, 2007 4:20pm AEDT

An Army captain has pleaded guilty to stealing and possessing 10 rocket launchers from the Australian Defence Force (ADF).

Forty-six-year-old Shane Della-Vedova today pleaded guilty at Sydney's Central Local Court to two charges.
...........
He remains in custody and will face a sentencing hearing in the District Court next month.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/20/2124083.htm

Ex-Army officer bailed over stolen rocket launchers
Posted Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:06pm AEDT
A Supreme Court judge has granted bail to a Sydney man accused of possessing rocket launchers stolen from the Army.

Thirty-nine-year-old Dean Taylor has been committed to stand trial next year on two charges.

A crown witness, identified only as Harrington, claimed Taylor and another man, Shane Della Vedova, had provided him with rocket launchers and hand grenades stolen from the Army.

Harrington alleged the suspect had been down at the pub talking about his possession and disposal of the rocket launchers.

The court was also told of allegations that Taylor's thumbprint was found on a terrorist handbook.

In opposing bail, the crown argued the former Army officer could try to interfere with Harrington to stop him from giving evidence at the trial.

But justice Ian Harrison said he was satisfied Taylor did not pose a threat to the witness.

He granted the suspect bail, on conditions including a night-time curfew and reporting to police daily.

Summary:-
1. Dean Taylor to stand trial this year - currently on bail - (remember that Hicks was in solitary confinement with torture for 5 years ... whilst we were told he might do us some damage if he was freed ?)

2. Rocket launcher sale charges against Della Vedova dropped - but guilty of stealing .... we find out Della Vedova's sentence this month.

3. Both these blokes are entitled to justice - but so too was Hicks!

4. If Hicks got 5 years, how long do you reckon Della-Vedova should get?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/11/28/2104231.htm

IMO ...
a) people who complain about Hicks and Haneef - to the exclusion of cases like these stolen rockets - are just devouring what you are front-page-fed by the media, and
b) the media who plaster their front pages with hot "govt sponsored" topics (that sell), do not necessarily use proper perspective / weight etc.
c) as for the likes of ex foreign minister Downer (and his one eyed bias against Hicks - with virtually no comment about this other case) - sorry , but these days I feel nauseous when I see him on TV.

 

[doctorj]

Lets not forget that he actually did nothing illegal in Afghanistan under Australian, US, Afghani or International law. The law under which the US charged Hicks was retrospectively applied (which in itself is interesting - why should an Australian in Afghanistan be subject to US law at all, retrospective or otherwise?). But before he was charged by a retrospective law he arguably shouldn't be subject to at all, he was held for years without charge, and most likely a victim of a variety of torture, in contravention of the Geneva convention despite Afghanistan, Australia, Cuba and the USA all being signatories to it.

What he did may have been stupid, dangerous, childish, irresponsible, offensive and may have ultimately led him to carrying out a terrorist act (who knows?) there's a good arguement that he's not guilty of anything.

Yet we can sit here behind our keyboards, in our airconditioned studies fresh from watching Fox News and label him a terrorist. *sigh*

 

[Whiskers]

Very well put Doc.

I absolutely agree there.

I just feel that after all that others have said about him, now that he is back in Aus the least we can do is let him have his say.

I don't have any problems with him selling his story. Heck many other 'convicted' criminals have sold their stories. Anyway, we are supporting him on the dole for now. If he sells his story for a significant sum he will be off the state payroll. That seems to be good enough reason for me.

 

[rederob]

Rederob, you say he was tortured, or at least imply it. How do you know this?

Julia
I don't recall saying or implying Hicks was tortured.
It is widely reported that methods at Guantanamo included "torture", although I guess it depends on how anyone wants to define it.
Then again I don't think Guantanamo was a guest house as suicide attempts probably run into the thousands (New York Times reported 350 in 2003 alone, and even the medical base acknowledges that during mass suicide attempts its 48 bed hospital was inadequate).

Changing tack slightly, many want Hicks to personally apologise (including Premier Rann).
Hicks has agreed to comply fully with his plea bargain agreement, which is onerous and far reaching, and prevents him making media statements until its expiry in early March.
Who knows what he will say. Or if he really wants to say anything at all.

I only hope that a Labor government never abandons its citizens and defends their rights to full and fair processes regardless of their alleged sins.

 

[2020hindsight]

2020 and Rederob
1. Or perhaps he really hated America, had no respect for Australia, ... I have no idea and doubt anyone on this forum has either.

2. Rederob, you say he was tortured, or at least imply it. How do you know this?

3. book/film deals - how that is handled.

Julia,
1. He wanted to join our military. He was knocked back due to educational qualifications. Incidentally, as far as I know, you're the first to suggest he "has no respect for Australia"

2. see below
3. next post
back to the question of torture
2. This was discussed at length on the first Hicks thread .... great article (thanks happytown ) from NY Times 21March07

Now Hicks goes into (gruesome) detail right? - on many matters of torture-
including white plastic objects etc - might offend etc -
there are photos of said white objects being used at Abu Ghraib - articles on varius websites ...

sure, he subsequently had to sign a form saying that he denied most of these claims to get out of the place (well helloooo - maybe if you were being tortured, you might happily say anything ...

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=136867&highlight=plastic#post136867

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=136502&highlight=plastic#post136502

new york times ....
" By RAYMOND BONNER
Published: March 20, 2007

LONDON, March 19 — David Hicks, the first detainee to be formally charged under the new military tribunal rules at Guantánamo Bay, has alleged in a court document filed here that during more than five years in American custody he was beaten several times during interrogations and witnessed the abuse of other prisoners.

In an affidavit supporting his request for British citizenship, Mr. Hicks contends that before he arrived at Guantánamo, his American captors threw him and other detainees on the ground, walked on them, stripped him naked, shaved all his body hair and inserted a plastic object in his rectum.

The abuse, Mr. Hicks asserts, began during interrogations in Afghanistan, where he was captured in late 2001. It then continued while he was shuttled between American naval ships, aircraft, unknown buildings and Kandahar before he was taken to the military detention center at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, in early 2002, according to the affidavit.

While Mr. Hicks did not claim that he was tortured at Guantánamo, he said he was given regular, mysterious injections that “would make my head feel strange.” He also said he witnessed or heard about mistreatment of others there.

A detainee with only one leg was “set upon” by a special military team and its dogs, he said. The man was dragged out of his cell, and there was blood on his face and the cell floor. “It put me in such fear that I just knew I would ‘cooperate’ in any way with the U.S.”

A spokesman for the military commission, Cmdr. J. D. Gordon, described Mr. Hicks’s allegations as “false,” and “completely lacking in merit.”

“Hicks has make a number of allegations in the past, which have proven to be unsubstantiated and completely lacking in merit,” Commander Gordon said.

For example, he said Mr. Hicks had once alleged that he was shackled to the floor for 22 hours a day, which Commander Gordon said was untrue.

Mr. Hicks is Australian, but his mother was born in Britain; he has been seeking citizenship here because he believes that the British government has done more to secure the release of its citizens in Guantánamo than Australia has.

At an American military commission hearing scheduled for March 26, Mr. Hicks will plead not guilty to a single charge of providing material support for terrorism, his military lawyer, Maj. Michael Mori, has said. The initial charges against Mr. Hicks, including attempted murder and aiding the enemy, have been dropped.

Major Mori’s aggressive defense of Mr. Hicks continues to draw fire from the chief prosecutor of the military commission, Col. Morris Davis. In an e-mail message last week to the judge who oversees the military commissions, Colonel Davis said that Major Mori appeared to have violated Article 88 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, which prohibits an officer from using “contemptuous words” against the president, vice president, secretary of defense and other senior officials.

Colonel Davis cited numerous statements by Major Mori on his trips to Australia that he said could be considered insulting or rude. A copy of the message, from Colonel Davis to Judge Susan Crawford, was provided to The New York Times by someone who supports Major Mori.

Major Mori declined to comment on Colonel Davis’s latest criticisms. Earlier this month, after Colonel Davis first voiced disapproval of Major Mori’s conduct, Major Mori said that it might force him to withdraw from the case. Commander Gordon, the commission spokesman, declined to discuss Colonel Davis’s message, calling it “an internal staff matter.”

In Australia, Major Mori is widely credited with having changed the public attitude toward Mr. Hicks. At the time of his arrest, Mr. Hicks was often described in Australia’s tabloids as “Australia’s Taliban.” Now, across the political spectrum, there is pressure on Prime Minister John Howard to have Mr. Hicks returned to Australia soon.

Major Mori has also been praised by former detainees for his representation.

Australian intelligence officials have said that Mr. Hicks went to Afghanistan to train with Al Qaeda. For his part, Mr. Hicks said he was seized by the Northern Alliance, which was fighting with the Americans against the Taliban, and was treated well for two weeks.

“When the U.S. interrogators showed up my treatment changed,” Mr. Hicks said in the affidavit, which was filed in December but has remained largely unnoticed.

He said he was interrogated by five Americans, who were dressed in black combat gear without any insignia.

“The U.S. interrogators would question me,” he said, “and after my responses I would be slapped in the back of the head and told I was lying.”

At one point, he said, he was forced to sit on a window ledge, and outside there were six American soldiers with their weapons pointed at him, he wrote.

One interrogator, “obviously agitated, took out his pistol and aimed it at me, with his hand shaking violently with rage.” It was at this point, he said, “I realized that if I did not cooperate with U.S. interrogators, I might be shot.”

He said was taken to the amphibious assault ship Peleliu, which he knew because of announcements over the public address system. Among the detainees was John Walker Lindh, the American who later pleaded guilty to serving with the Taliban and is now serving 20 years. Commander Gordon said the military would not discuss whether Mr. Hicks was held on ships, but noted that it was a matter of public record that Mr. Lindh was held on the Peleliu.

On board, Mr. Hicks said he could hear other detainees “screaming in pain” when being interrogated.

He said he was later transferred to the amphibious assault ship Bataan, where he said conditions became “drastically” worse. He was fed only a handful of rice or fruit three times a day, the affidavit asserts, and on several occasions, he and other detainees, blindfolded, hooded and handcuffed, were thrown onto helicopters and taken to hangar-like buildings in an unknown location.

They were forced to kneel for 10 hours, during which time “I was hit in the back of the head with the butt of a rifle several times (hard enough to knock me over), slapped in the back of the head, kicked, stepped on, and spat on,” he said. “I could hear the groans and cries of other detainees.”

He was flown back to the ship, and a few days later back to a hangar.

A week or so later, he was flown to Kandahar, where he and other detainees “were forced to lie face down in the mud while solders walked across our backs.”

He was stripped, his body hair shaved and a piece of “white plastic was forcibly inserted in my rectum for no apparent purpose,” he wrote. Soldiers made crude comments about the insertion, he said.

Commander Gordon said he had no knowledge of such treatment. Some former detainees have made similar accusations, including Mamdouh Habib, an Australian who was picked up in Pakistan, turned over to the United States and delivered to Egypt, where he says he was badly tortured.

At Guantánamo, Mr. Hicks said he was also shown a picture of Mr. Habib. “In the photo, Habib’s face was black and blue,” Mr. Hicks wrote. “I first thought it was a photo of a corpse,” he said, adding that an interrogator told him that if he did not cooperate he would be sent to Egypt “to suffer the same fate.”

“This regular brutality left me in a heightened state of fear and anxiety about my own safety,” Mr. Hicks wrote in the affidavit.

After Mr. Hicks was formally charged earlier this month, Australian officials said publicly that they hoped a plea bargain allowing Mr. Hicks to come home could be negotiated. Two American officials close to the case said they expected that the deal would be for Mr. Hicks to plead guilty to the one charge, in exchange for the five years he has already been held."

 

[2020hindsight]

for point 3. Interesting that Ruddock claimed (early april last year when the sentence was handed down) that the US were not able to give Hicks such an instruction / gag order about contact with the press.

YET Hicks is honouring it anyways.

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=142264&highlight=ruddock#post142264

An interesting difference of opinion
Ruddock championing Hicks right to free speech (??)) yet Mori is arguing severe penalties for speaking out.

This would have to be the first time that anyone has dared to say that we can make a decision independent of USA !! damage control for sure.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200704/s1889044.htm

Hicks' media gag order can't be enforced: Ruddock
Federal Attorney-General Philip Ruddock says the gag order on convicted terrorist David Hicks cannot be enforced when he returns to Australia.

Hicks was ordered not to talk to the media for a year as part of his plea bargain with the United States Military Commission, which sentenced him to nine months' jail. Speaking to ABC TV's The 7.30 Report program on Tuesday, Hicks' military lawyer Major Michael Mori said a breach would have serious consequences.

"Violating many of the provisions of the pre-trial agreement actually could require him to serve the remainder of the sentence that's hanging over his head," he said. "He could potentially be brought back to Guantanamo to serve it."

But Mr Ruddock has told ABC TV's Lateline program, Australia could not extradite Hicks if he breached the order and there are no domestic laws to enforce it. "In Australia, we have a position about freedom of speech," he said.

"And proceeds of crime legislation deals with proceeds of crime and it can include literary proceeds, it's so people don't profit from it. "It's not to stop them telling their story." Mr Ruddock says Australia can only stop Hicks profiting from his story

 

[2020hindsight]

lol - you read back through the old news articles - like this one (2 weeks before final sentence) where he was drugged for no reason at all !?!? - what strange strange practices they use these days in the USA legal system.

- home of the brave , land of the free and all that. - yeah right lol.
Maybe under other presidents - not under this latest chickenhawk administration.

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2007/s1874963.htm

Mori demands explanation for Hick's alleged sedation
AM - Monday, 19 March , 2007 08:24:00
Reporter: Kim Landers
TONY EASTLEY: David Hicks' US military lawyer is demanding an explanation about why his client was apparently drugged before being told he was facing fresh charges.

Major Michael Mori says the 31-year-old Australian was sedated last month, a day after he'd finished visiting his client.

Major Mori is speaking here to Kim Landers.

MICHAEL MORI: It was explained to me that the day that David was going to be told about the sworn charges, which was the day after we'd left during our last visit to Guantanamo, the foreman came to him and told him he had a new medicine for David's stomach problem and he should try it.

David took it and then it started to basically sedate him. The next thing he knew he was being taken out of a cell and somebody was talking to him about charges and he really couldn't comprehend what was going on, and it lasted almost for 24 hours.

KIM LANDERS: Was your client able to ask what exactly had been given to him, once he realised that he had been sedated in some way, what did he do?

MICHAEL MORI: He doesn't know what it was. Obviously, we've raised it and asked that it not be done again. He shouldn't be sedated against his will.

KIM LANDERS: Had he ever been medicated in this way before at Guantanamo?

MICHAEL MORI: It seems similar to when he was first injected when he arrived at Guantanamo.

KIM LANDERS: But nothing since then?

MICHAEL MORI: No, I don't understand why they would do this to him when they've said David has been compliant for five years, the commander down there has told the embassy, the consuls that David has been compliant all along. It's just very strange.

 

[visual]

Julia,
1. He wanted to join our military. He was knocked back due to educational qualifications. Incidentally, as far as I know, you're the first to suggest he "has no respect for Australia"

Hindsight, in various posts you've stated that hicks tried to join the Australian army but failed, julian knight was in the army, when he killed many people and injured many more, was he too looking for adventure? Or maybe the government shouldn't have him declared a vexacious complainant? after all he also is entitled to leave his life in peace, now that he has destroyed so many. hicks destroyed lives by supporting an organisation that killed many Australians. See the correlation?

 

[2020hindsight]

visual
no question some people who get in the army are "unsafe at any speed"
or in the case of the US - maybe leaning towards "unsafe on any speed?"

that goes for our police force as well -

I still think it goes a long way to proving his good intentions towards Australia. What a shame he wasn't accepted

 

[visual]

visual
no question some people who get in the army are "unsafe at any speed"
or in the case of the US - maybe leaning towards "unsafe on any speed?"

that goes for our police force as well -

I still think it goes a long way to proving his good intentions towards Australia. What a shame he wasn't accepted

But seeing that he was rejected and then joined a terorrist organisation rather than making himself suitable for the Australian army shows that he was completely unsuitable and the army got it right.

 

[2020hindsight]

He wasn't a good student at school - dropped out early. etc

Meanwhile the press are stalking him.. and his father
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23000261-5013404,00.html

Question for you visual
Why aren't they stalking Dean Taylor?

 

[2020hindsight]

a great article by Bob Ellis ...
alludes to unfair treatment - but also great lateral thinking - his story would be good for all of us to know !

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2128442.htm

There are former members of the Third Reich who guarded Jews in Belsen who walk unpoliced around South Australia today; unlike David Hicks. There are former warriors of Imperial Japan who beat, starved and beheaded Australian POWs, availed themselves of Comfort Women and would, if asked, have gone on suicide missions for the Emperor, who visit Sydney unsupervised today; unlike David Hicks. There are former American GIs who slaughtered Vietnamese villagers after raping some of them who can stay out after midnight in any Australian city; unlike David Hicks.

David Hicks, it seems, is different, another kettle of evil entirely. He’s so different that, despite his fame, his voice has never been broadcast. He’s so different he can’t (unlike, say, Albert Speer) write of the experience that made him famous. He can’t badmouth his torturers. He can’t stay overnight with a girlfriend at an address unknown to police. He can’t (for instance) go fishing for week with his son, after seven years apart from him, unless he reports three times in that week in person to local police.

What has he done to deserve this? Why has he been so singled out for cruel and unusual punishment? There are many answers to this.... etc

His voice, for instance, has never been broadcast because it’s a broad Australian voice. And if that voice were heard he’d be humanised by it.etc

now by letting Hicks talk / write a book etc - we would all earn something - about the Taliban, about a heap of topics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Speer

Berthold Konrad Hermann Albert Speer, commonly known as Albert Speer (listen (help·info); March 19, 1905 – September 1, 1981), was an architect, author and high-ranking Nazi German government official, sometimes called "the first architect of the Third Reich".

Speer was Hitler's chief architect before becoming his Minister for Armaments during the war. He reformed Germany's war production to the extent that it continued to increase for over a year despite increasingly intensive Allied bombing. After the war, he was tried at Nuremberg and sentenced to 20 years' imprisonment for his role in the Third Reich. As "the Nazi who said sorry"[1], he was the only senior Nazi figure to admit guilt and express remorse. Following his release in 1966, he became an author, writing two bestselling autobiographical works, and a third about the Third Reich. His two autobiographical works, Inside the Third Reich and Spandau: the Secret Diaries detailed his often close personal relationship with German dictator Adolf Hitler, and have provided readers and historians with an unequalled personal view inside the workings of the Third Reich.

 

[visual]

He wasn't a good student at school - dropped out early. etc

Meanwhile the press are stalking him.. and his father
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23000261-5013404,00.html

Question for you visual
Why aren't they stalking Dean Taylor?

So he wasn't a good student,for someone with so much desire to join the army in fact any group with guns, you'd think he'd do his utmost to join a legal outfit, but obviously intelligence isn't one of his strong suits. By the way seeing that he wasn't good at school and dropped out, does that mean we should expect more losers to want to join a terorrist group? I suppose they are the ones who would be attracted to that sort of thing, lets hope our defence lines all succeeded at school then.

By the way, what is it with you and changing subjects, can't you stay on topic when your argument gets shot down in flames?

 

[2020hindsight]

chopper to give back the profits from his book
..... nice one lol - good luck !!
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2128442.htm

But why is he not let to write about his life, as any human being in world history previously could do? Because of a new law, it turns out, one that says you can’t profit from your account of a life of crime.

This should mean that Chopper must give his book earnings back, and so must his publisher.

So he wasn't a good student,for someone with so much desire to join the army in fact any group with guns, you'd think he'd do his utmost to join a legal outfit, but obviously intelligence isn't one of his strong suits. By the way seeing that he wasn't good at school and dropped out, does that mean we should expect more losers to want to join a terorrist group? I suppose they are the ones who would be attracted to that sort of thing, lets hope our defence lines all succeeded at school then.

By the way, what is it with you and changing subjects, can't you stay on topic when your argument gets shot down in flames?

Visual - at this point , I have the option of reading and absorbing the wit of bob ellis again -
or reading your post again - and trying to work out where the heck your argument is going.
sorry - you lose out.

DAMN that's a brilliant article - should be compulsory reading !! - including at school lol
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2128442.htm

PS visual - I agree , Hicks wasn't a whiz kid.
refer poetry thread
"aged but one score years and six ,
down the road comes david hicks
some say he's as thick as bricks
but that's another matter ... " - ok?

 

[2020hindsight]

I'd go further and say that it is imperative that he be allowed to write a book - and asap.

If that story is "lost" for any reason - perhaps him being killed by some lunatic - it would be a tragedy. (imo)

 

[visual]

chopper to give back the profits from his book
..... nice one lol - good luck !!
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2128442.htm




Visual - at this point , I have the option of reading and absorbing the wit of bob ellis again -
or reading your post again - and trying to work out where the heck your argument is going.
sorry - you lose out.

DAMN that's a brilliant article - should be compulsory reading !! - including at school lol
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/stories/s2128442.htm

Now I'm confused, so what's your reference to him joining the Australian army and being or being seen as a good thing? Are you saying that if you fail to join the Australian army then it is alright to join a terorrist organisation? are the two equal?

Yep better stick with ellis I think,

 

[orr]

And today he approaches a semblance of justice...

Gives hope to those who seek protection of Law; the wheels do turn slow.

 

[SirRumpole]

And today he approaches a semblence of justice...

Gives hope to those who seek protection of Law; the wheels do turn slow.

And still the question remains.

What was he doing at an Al Qaeda training camp and why ?

 

[orr]

And still the question remains.

What was he doing at an Al Qaeda training camp and why ?

What ever it was? It wasn't breaking the Law.
Which as it happens is your and my only redress against the power of the state.