Drug experimentation and dependence

[Whiskers]

Hi Jessica

You had a hit today, didn't you!? :

That's why you have lost interest in continuing our discussion today. That's OK, tomorrow will do.

I guess at the end of the day, i'll keep doing what i do and you'll keep doing what you do.

Life rolls on........................we are both happy doing as we do.

The fun police will keep banging on about how people shouldn't do this and how they should do that and drug use will grow expodentially, nothing will change and nothing will be resolved.

What can you do hey?

JW

Remember earlier you were telling me how you monitor the effects. All the things you have said earlier, about small doses and doing it in company in case something goes wrong etc, is all good sense.

You said:

I made sure i had a good undertanding of what each drug did before i took it. Well, i know from experience now.

You seem to have a subjective benchmark that works for you. I'm just trying to establish some objective benchmarks to work off, that I can replicate, because I happen to believe that abolition won't work either.

Many chemicals metabolise or pass through our system, but some don't and either progressively accumulate in our body or progessively damage our body with more exposure... like some diseases. This is the little, but important bit of how to monitor the effects that I am not clear about.

Take someone who suffers from dementia for example. They cannot make a subjective assessement of themself for dementia. They are usually the last to know. I mean I couldn't even 'subjectively' determine that I had a melanoma until it was nearly too late. High cholesterol and high blood pressure even many cancers are not detectable subjectively. We have to do some sort of objective tests. For example I've had a brain scan and neurological tests to check for disease or effects from a concussion, so I have an objective assessement that tells exactly what condition my brain and nervous system is in... and heart and eyesight etc.

Can you see what I mean here Jecssica? I'm interested in what objective tests you do or are considering to monitor the effects of your dosage rates.

 

[theasxgorilla]

Check on the research reports from the Netherlands and their free thinking to drug use. It's not leagalised per se, but a blind eye is taken to most things that don't affect others. As of a couple of years ago the debate has now opened on the effects drugs are having on others.

There is a similar region on Copenhagen and the general take is that while the drugs were contained to that region the rest of the city was relatively clean. Crack downs apparently led to business moving elsewhere...often times to previously reputable and clean neighbourhoods. FWIW nobody in that region wanted heroin. It was all about the hash. I don't think anyone wants heroin or these other ****ty drugs like meth or crack in their neighbourhood. They're each a slippery slope to the same place.

Perhaps this is the answer, drugs is a business after all. Crime related to drugs isn't just about addicts committing burglaries, its also about turf wars and such things. Accepting that it exists and keeping it contained goes a long way toward a compromised solution IMO.

IF we at least took marijuana as a decriminalised drug then between tobacco, alcohol and dope we'd cover the absolute largest majority of rec-drug users and with the support of that majority it would be a lot easier to get behind the effort of the cops efforts to crack down on the dirty stuff.

 

[Julia]

hey Julia -
maybe it would help if you thought of me as a #6 canine personality

Lol! Good suggestion, 2020. I'll give it a try. But just so I attempt to have the last word in this exchange, in your post which precipitated my irritation you did in fact say "completely off topic......" .
Now I shall have to give some serious thought to those rules about managing a No. 6 type canine! How do you think you'd go with a command of "sit and stay"?

 

[Lucky]

just a sample of the many artists who could still be here
stating the obvious again ...
Michael Hutchence

good thing there wasn't a ban on belts...and btw wasn't it prescription drugs and alcohol that was supposedly found in Hutchence's hotel room?

 

[Lucky]

There is a similar region on Copenhagen and the general take is that while the drugs were contained to that region the rest of the city was relatively clean. Crack downs apparently led to business moving elsewhere...often times to previously reputable and clean neighbourhoods. FWIW nobody in that region wanted heroin. It was all about the hash. I don't think anyone wants heroin or these other ****ty drugs like meth or crack in their neighbourhood. They're each a slippery slope to the same place.

Chirstiania is the place in Copenhagen. Spent a day exploring, quite an interesting place. They say you need to be wary of the place, but we wandered all over the place and had no hassles. Seemed like a pretty cool community, almost commune like. I do remember that photos or filming was not allowed.

 

[2020hindsight]

good thing there wasn't a ban on belts...and btw wasn't it prescription drugs and alcohol that was supposedly found in Hutchence's hotel room?

quite likely lucky (I'm no expert) - apologies if "stating the obvious" was in fact "obviously wrong" oops

likewise I deliberately included Andy Gibb - where there was a fair bit of alcohol involved. - who knows the relative contribution of coke and booze (although I have my own suspicions - .. do you?)

PS I'm going to try to limit myself to 10% less alcohol per week (arithmetic progression) for the next 10 weeks after reading this thread

no make that 5 weeks

PS maybe you could find some better examples of rock stars who have dropped out due to drugs.

PS I can tell you of one that I wouldn't post as an example of self -administered drug overdose - and that is Marilyn Monroe - considering there was a room full of people present, and she was a risk to the nation's security etc etc .

 

[Stan 101]

Thanks for that Gorilla, I remember in my 20s in amsterdam with a wodge of hash and a half caraffe of red munching on cheese in the park that is the home to a fine statue of Rembrant. It all seemed okay then. Haven't touched the stuff in years after seeing so many friends lose their minds or their lives.

2020, the Pearl was one entertainer to lose her life.. She had a terrific voice.. was that '70 or '71?


cheers,

 

[2020hindsight]

Now I shall have to give some serious thought to those rules about managing a No. 6 type canine! How do you think you'd go with a command of "sit and stay"?

hey Julia - one thing not to get any sleep, but I have to go to work soon !

PS lucky / Stan 101 ..
http://www.av1611.org/rockdead.html
doesn't sound like a particularly healthy profession !!

Average Age at Death of Included Rock Stars (1) 36.9 Years
Average Age at Death of Americans (2) 75.8 Years

NOTE: This is EVERY death of a Rock star we've found. This is NOT a "RIGGED" list to produce FALSE numbers, but an HONEST observation.

(2) From "The World Almanac and Book of Facts", 1997, p.973


SUMMARY OF CAUSES OF DEATH
Heart Attack 42
Drug Overdose 40
Misc. Medical 37
Suicide 36
Auto/Cycle Crash 35
Cancer 25
Airplane Crash 22
Unknown 21
Murdered 18
Alcohol 9
Accident 6
Drowned 5
Brain Tumor 4
AIDS 4
Poisoned 3
Leukemia 3
Electrocuted 3
Stroke 3
Fire 3
Choked 2
Total Deaths 321

Steve Clark Def Leppard 91-01-08 30 Alcohol
Rory Gallagher 95-06-14 47 Alcohol
Bill Haley 81-02-09 56 Alcohol
Ron 'Pigpen' McKernan Grateful Dead 73-03-08 27 Alcohol
John Panozzo Styx 96-07-16 47 Alcohol
Bon Scott AC/DC 80-02-19 33 Alcohol
Townes Van Zandt 97-01-01 52 Alcohol
Gene Vincent 71-10-12 36 Alcohol
John Bonham Led Zeppelin 80-09-25 32 Alcohol overdose

Phil Lynott Thin Lizzy 86-01-04 35 Drug Abuse
GG Allin 93-06-28 36 Drug overdose
Mike Bloomfield 81-02-15 37 Drug overdose
Tommy Bolin Deep Purple 76-12-04 25 Drug overdose
Tim Buckley 75-06-29 28 Drug overdose
Miss Christine GTO's 72-11-05 Drug overdose
Brian Cole Association 72-08-02 28 Drug overdose
$nbsp; Dimwit DOA 94-08-27 Drug Overdose
Pete Farndon Pretenders 83-04-14 30 Drug overdose
Dwayne Goettel Skinny Puppy 95-08-23 31 Drug overdose
Ric Grech Family, Blind Faith 90-03-17 44 Drug overdose
Tim Hardin 80-12-29 39 Drug overdose
Helno Les Negresses Vertes 93-01-21 29 Drug overdose
Jimi Hendrix 70-09-18 27 Drug overdose
Gregory Herbert Blood, Sweat & Tears 78-..-.. 28 Drug overdose
James Honeyman-Scott Pretenders 82-06-16 25 Drug overdose
Shannon Hoon Blind Melon 95-10-21 28 Drug overdose
Janis Joplin 70-10-04 27 Drug overdose
Frankie Lymon The Teenagers 68-02-28 25 Drug overdose
Robbie McIntosh Average White Band 74-09-23 23 Drug overdose
Jonathan Melvoin Smashing Pumpkins 96-07-11 34 Drug overdose
Keith Moon Who 78-09-07 32 Drug overdose
Bill Murcia New York Dolls 72-11-06 21 Drug overdose
Brent Mydland Grateful Dead 90-07-01 38 Drug overdose
Bradley Nowell Sublime 96-05-25 28 Drug overdose
Malcolm Owen Ruts 80-07-14 24 Drug overdose
Gram Parsons Byrds 73-09-19 26 Drug Overdose
Kristen Pfaff Hole 94-06-16 24 Drug overdose
Elvis Presley 77-08-16 42 Drug Overdose
David Ruffin Temptations 91-06-01 50 Drug overdose
Stefanie Sargent 7 Year Bitch 92-06-27 24 Drug overdose
Will Shatter Flipper 87-12-09 31 Drug Overdose
Hillel Slovak Red Hot Chili Peppers 88-06-?? 25 Drug Overdose
Bob Stinson Replacements 95-02-20 35 Drug overdose
Vinnie Taylor Sha Na Na 74-04-17 25 Drug overdose
Gary Thain Uriah Heep 76-03-19 27 Drug overdose
Johnny Thunders New York Dolls 91-04-23 38 Drug overdose
Sid Vicious Sex Pistols 79-02-02 21 Drug overdose
Danny Whitten Crazy Horse 72-11-18 29 Drug overdose
Andrew Wood Mother Love Bone 90-03-19 24 Drug overdose

Johnny Ace 54-12-24 25 Suicide
Nick Acland Lush 96-10-17 30 Suicide
Bobby Bloom 74-02-28 28 Suicide
Graham Bond 74-05-08 36 Suicide
Roy Buchanan 88-08-14 48 Suicide
Kurt Cobain Nirvana 94-04-05 27 Suicide
Vincent Crane Atomic Rooster 89-02-01 44 Suicide
Darby Crash Germs 80-12-07 22 Suicide
Ian Curtis Joy Division 80-05-18 23 Suicide
Dalida 87-05-03 53 Suicide
Nick Drake 74-11-25 26 Suicide
Tom Evans Badfinger 83-11-18 36 Suicide
Matthew Fletcher Heavenly 96-06-14 26 Suicide
Danny Gatton (session musician) 94-10-04 49 Suicide
Pete Ham Badfinger 75-04-23 28 Suicide
Donny Hathway 79-01-13 33 Suicide
Jay Hening Demolition 23 97-04-18 23 Suicide
Michael Hutchence INXS 97-11-22 37 Suicide
Phyllis Hyman 95-07-03 44 Suicide
Billy Jones Outlaws 95-02-.. 45 Suicide
Billy MacKenzie Associates 97-01-23 39 Suicide
Richard Manual The Band 86-03-04 42 Suicide
Joe Meek (producer) 67-02-03 38 Suicide
Yogi Norton Luther Vandross 87-06-.. Suicide
Phil Ochs 76-04-07 35 Suicide
David Savoy Jr. Husker Du 87-02-.. 25 Suicide
Ingo Schwichtenberg Helloween 95-03-08 29 Suicide
Del Shannon 90-02-08 51 Suicide
Rory Storm Rory Storm and the Hurricanes 72-09-27 32 Suicide
Biggie Tempo Bhundu Boys 95-08-13 37 Suicide
Jason Thirsk Pennywise 96-07-28 27 Suicide
Paul Williams Temptations 73-08-17 34 Suicide
Wendy O. Williams Plasmatics 98-04-06 48 Suicide
Al Wilson Canned Heat 70-09-03 27 Suicide
Nicholas Traina Link 80 97-08-21 19 Suicide (overdose)

That many again with "heart attack"
many more with "medical", "stroke" etc

 

[2020hindsight]

mind you, jessica is gonna tell me not to catch anymore flights

David Box Crickets 64-10-23 21 Airplane Crash
Ronnie Caldwell Bar-Kays 67-12-10 19 Airplane crash
Bill Chase Chase 74-08-12 39 Airplane crash
Walter Clark Chase 74-08-12 25 Airplane crash
Jim Croce 73-09-20 30 Airplane crash
Carl Cunningham Bar-Kays 67-12-10 18 Airplane crash
John Denver 97-10-12 53 Airplane crash
John Emma Chase 74-08-12 22 Airplane crash
Cassie Gaines Lynyrd Skynyrd 77-10-20 Airplane crash
Steven Gaines Lynyrd Skynyrd 77-10-20 28 Airplane crash
Buddy Holly 59-02-03 22 Airplane crash
Paul Avron Jeffreys Cockney Rebel 88-12-21 36 Airplane crash
Phalin Jones Bar-Kays 67-12-10 18 Airplane crash
Jimmy King Bar-Kays 67-12-10 18 Airplane crash
Rick Nelson 85-12-31 45 Airplane crash
Otis Redding 67-12-10 26 Airplane crash
Randy Rhoades Quiet Riot, Ozzy Osbourne 82-03-20 26 Airplane crash
J.P. Richardson (The Big Bopper) 59-02-03 24 Airplane crash
Richie Valens 59-02-03 17 Airplane crash
Ronnie Van Zant Lynyrd Skynyrd 77-10-20 29 Airplane crash
Wallace Yohn Chase 74-08-12 27 Airplane crash

and that doesn't even include this bloke (Kyu Sakamoto)
NB "look up whilst walking"
died inplanecrash - had 30 minutes "to scribble a shakey note to his wife"

Sukiyaki 上を向いて歩こう Kyu Sakamoto 坂本九
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=166347&highlight=stew#post166347

 

[Prospector]

Should users of recreational drugs be made into criminals?

Like you, I have no problems with users. And not in itself should users be classified as criminals on the basis of their use of drugs. But when users go on to commit crimes against others (our house has been broken into by a druggie looking for money) or their addiction is used as an excuse for other criminal behaviour expecting to be let off, then we have gone too far.

Your list of deaths amongst performers/artists is interesting 2020; but since time began, people with amazing creativity have met early deaths; so this is not something new and related to the current drug/alcohol culture. Maybe extreme creativity and longevity are incompatible?

 

[Agentm]

whiskers, i like your style..

i had a family member who smoked all her life, and the abuse there led to a neurosis and depression that she treated with alcohol. which in turn led to the loss of her daughters by DHS, and the deep depression and continued alcohol abuse led to the tragic attempted suicide last year.

She is now in a hostel, recovering from severe brain injuries, she died on boxing day after 2 long weeks in the ICU unit, but was revived, and spent a few further months there before being able to be taken off the ward.

I recommend any person who experiences or has a friend or family member that is using alcohol and other drugs to self medicate, to get the best possible help and assisitance that you can to them before things get out of control. in my case many years of painstaking calls all returned with abuse, could not turn the tide, i cant hide the fact i was the last person she called and i was unable to help her on that day, but having done numerous suicide calls on her and alerted the authorities to her mental illness, i could do nothing. best thing really i can see is that my mother didnt have to bury her daughter.. and my neices didnt have to bury their mother

The moment you use drugs and alcohol to alter your state of being, your already developing a pattern, that in some circumstances in some people becomes a pattern and behaviour that is impossible to overcome.

i have always seen her as the bravest and strongest soul on this plant, her current state of mind is peace, she has overcome some amazing hurdles. from communicating with her by her heartbeat when she was in a coma, to now only being able able to talk to her and communicate mainly one way (her head trauma is such that her damage to her left side disallows a lot of balance function and her ability to speak)

long yards ahead still,

there is always cause and effect to consider with drugs of any nature..

my story is no different to many others.. drugs and alcohol are killers.. living in a bubble and using with friends is now socially acceptable, and consequences are not noticed on initial use of the drugs used today.. i see it as a major issue, a major cause of social problems, suicide and it nice to see a few here are taking it seriously.

because its deadly and serious!!

 

[nioka]

I'm in favour of letting anyone take whatever drugs they like. PROVIDING THEY HAND OVER THEIR DRIVING LICENCE, Providing also that they do not fly planes, prepare food for sale, work near anyone who relies on their activities etc. etc. I have had a full head on crash, on my side of the road where the other driver was drug affected, claims we hit on his side and bounced over to mine. Drugs alter the mind, that's not disputed. Anyone with a mind that needs altering must be a problem to themselves and others.

 

[2020hindsight]

(PS nioka - I actually take this seriously - just that I always thought the best way to tell young kids not to do wild things in trees - for instance- was to say " if you fall out of that tree and break your leg, don't come running to me"

- just thought this concept could be applied to drugs as well ...
adapted to late teenagers / young adults , this might read ... "I know you're out of your tree, hope you didn't hurt yourself" sort of thing )

My guess at the (first) eight stages of "a high" (??)
maybe the junkies amongst us can set me straight on the correct sequence..

1. you say you're not high but I can tell you're winging it

2. you reckon it's given you insomnia, ? ahh just don't lose any sleep over it

3. if you take those drugs and end up with violent mood swings - don't come crying to me

4. I realise it's just a temporary loss of bowel control - but well, **** happens.

5. it's one thing to get high, but just don't go floating around here like you own the place

6. If you lose temporary control of your dribbling and tongue, don't go mouthing off at me

7. it's not the lack of sleep creeping up on me that's the worry, it's the purple alligators

8. I tell you there's a risk you'll jump off a building with this stuff, and now you want to jump on me for telling you!

 

[professor_frink]

2020,

did you take a lot of drugs when you were younger?

 

[Prospector]

2020,

did you take a lot of drugs when you were younger?

You think?

 

[Julia]

Like you, I have no problems with users. And not in itself should users be classified as criminals on the basis of their use of drugs. But when users go on to commit crimes against others (our house has been broken into by a druggie looking for money) or their addiction is used as an excuse for other criminal behaviour expecting to be let off, then we have gone too far.

So, Wayne and Prospector, if you have no problems with users, are you going to be happy to have a root canal performed by a drug using dentist, a piece of delicate surgery performed by a drug using surgeon, your tax returns done by a drug using accountant?

And are you going to be OK with your children using drugs as long as they don't burgle someone's home to get the money to pay for them?

 

[nioka]

(PS nioka - I actually take this seriously - just that I always thought the best way to tell young kids not to do wild things in trees - for instance- was to say " if you fall out of that tree and break your leg, don't come running to me"

- just thought this concept could be applied to drugs as well ...
adapted to late teenagers / young adults , this might read ... "I know you're out of your tree, hope you didn't hurt yourself" sort of thing )

I couldn't give a damn what they do to themselves, I gave up worrying about that a long time ago. It is what they have done to me and to others because they think they are smart is what I care about. I can't relate that to falling out of a tree.I have fallen out of a tree in the past. I didn't fall onto someone else. Taking drugs, legal and illegal, affects someone else apart from the drug taker.

 

[Prospector]

So, Wayne and Prospector, if you have no problems with users, are you going to be happy to have a root canal performed by a drug using dentist, a piece of delicate surgery performed by a drug using surgeon, your tax returns done by a drug using accountant?

And are you going to be OK with your children using drugs as long as they don't burgle someone's home to get the money to pay for them?

Hey Julia, it wouldnt surprise me if that hasnt already happened.

But again, if a surgeon was operating and he had consumed illicit drugs (or also abused prescribed drugs!) then that would constitute an offence.

Alcohol consumption is legal, yet its abuse is more of a problem than illicit drugs; however the law has defined a limit whereby some use is OK, but over that limit, it is an offence. I really dont see why some things are legal, others are not. So for the surgeon, zero tolerance for both alcohol and drug use while they are operating; but if the surgeon wants to get drunk over the weekend, well, as long as he doesnt drive, that is legal and he is not committing a crime; but if he consumes any amount of illicit drug, well he has committed a crime. That is the bit that doesnt really make sense - one thing is legal, the other is not.

Of course I would not be happy if the kids started a lifestyle where drug consumption was the norm; but that is a values issue for me; but at the moment, again unless they drive, they can consume as much alcohol as they liked and not suffer any penalty; but if they consume an illicit drug then they end up with a police record etc. And if they smoked, again something that is legal, then they are doing themselves a lot of harm but no-one can say anything to stop them.

The cynical part of me wonders if the Government could charge a tax on drug sales (like they do with alcohol and cigarettes) then drugs that are illicit now might someday become legal.

 

[2020hindsight]

car on wrong side ....
Drugs alter the mind, that's not disputed. Anyone with a mind that needs altering must be a problem to themselves and others.

nioka - I hear you, and completely agree with those two points. ( but then I'm vulnerable when challenged on why I drink surely).

However I disagree with you / or rather have a different tack from you, on the following ...

I couldn't give a damn what they do to themselves, I gave up worrying about that a long time ago. It is what they have done to me and to others because they think they are smart is what I care about. I can't relate that to falling out of a tree.I have fallen out of a tree in the past. I didn't fall onto someone else. Taking drugs, legal and illegal, affects someone else apart from the drug taker.

If this thread stops one casual junkie from becoming a full-blown junkie, then it will have achieved something.

If us Ned Flanders ( as Jessica likes to label us) just let off steam, then it probably will achieve nothing.

That's how youngsters think - at least it's how I used to think lol.

(I'm sure you know the one about "why don't you leave home, quick , now, while you know everything )

when I was young I tried pot once - didn't inhale lol.

but oh boy I drank too much that's for certain. had the yardglass record in the Army etc - and I'm prepared to admit that I still do (i.e. drink too much - my record has probably been decimated ) - but Jessica has convinced me I should cut back lol.

PS I'm just waiting for her (and / or anyone else) to commit to cutting back as well

maybe you think I'm high because I even suggest such a thing lol.

 

[2020hindsight]

I'm tolerant of a "rare" drug use
keep it mild - every fifteen years -
even those who won't tolerate drinking booze
or Ned Flanders (who likes his beers) -
but the problem path as I understand
that only a fool would follow on
we shouldn't tolerate ANY plan
where we grow even SLIGHTLY tolerant.