Drug experimentation and dependence

[2020hindsight]

Speaking generally ... and probably stating the obvious...
where does drug dependence begin ?
surely with the first time you try it.

Not that I've had to deal with a drug addict personally (other than nicotine - and a sad story of a kid I used to coach who now has schizophrenia triggered by marijuana) ...
but I'd bet London to a brick that the average drug addict has been a nightmare to deal with (and probably always will be a worry at least) - probably ignored help from loved ones - taken years off everyone's life not just his or her own ....

everyone (including the addict) has been aware of where it was all heading for a long time ... but the addiction came first,

and a family just had to get used to the resultant suffering.

Maybe some (including some sporting heroes) are more affected than others - maybe some control themselves better than others ...

In the end, suppose (again hypothetical) that a sporting hero or a rock star dies,
a) are they promoted to superhuman, sins forgiven? "wasn't he brilliant!" etc
or
b) are they shown to be merely human - in fact probably on the weak side of average, due to the fact that they yielded to temptation - albeit bigger temptation. - My guess is the latter. And then - so much for the hero image - it gets left in tatters you would think.

Or in the wider community, suppose a difficult drug addict dies - is there (in some cases at least) almost a sense of relief?

Do we just try to remember that person as "they used to be pre-drugs", - when we could unreservedly laugh with them, (and reason with them for that matter) - when we had their full attention, and they didn't look around occasionally for a "fix" - whether nicotine or ecstacy or whatever. When there was no competition for that person's attention from some monkey on his or her back.

I was also curious about the management of a hypothetical sporting hero's image after a hypothetical drug related death. Slightly different point, but I recall someone in show biz in Vegas saying how difficult Elvis was to "manage" whilst he was alive (and frequently drug affected) -
and how easy he was to "manage" after he passed on.
"The difficult king is dead, long live the manageable king"

 

[Lucky]

Some people just shouldn't take drugs. Some shouldn't drink. Some drugs are addictive. Some folk unfortunately have addictive personalities.

Why do these people do what they do? In the case of drugs/drink, etc is it the effect that the person is after? The ability to change one's way of thinking/feeling? Is an altered reality easier for them to deal with, rather than reality, the present?

I think the other thing that you address is the cult of personality. That in itself is a whole other kettle of fish.

At the end of the day the person that has died will have some meaning to someone somewhere - whether they were a parent/partner/sibling/team mate/friend - good times and bad, that person will have meant something to someone.

 

[surfingman]

Realistically speaking its a huge problem that is admitting more people to psychiatric wards than any other cause, I did an assignment on a similar subject and Meth-amphetamine is the worst by far (Speed and Ice).

I don't believe dependency starts first time with everyone, Lucky hit the nail on the head:

Some folk unfortunately have addictive personalities.

Very sad to see this happen (ive seen it with friends), but the best thing they can do is get help, unfortunately because these actions (drug use) are not legal and frowned upon by society, many are not keen to seek help.

Why do they do what they do? Usually because their friends or associates are doing it seems like the "thing to do", this mixed with the personality which is addictive only leads to heart ache.

 

[aaronphetamine]

Natrually, this is a topic close to me.

Studying applied industrial and anayltical chemistry at university backed by a natural curiosity for chemistry and all things science has helped me gain alot of information both from learning and personal experiences in chemistry including a favourite of mine - psychopharmacology.

I think drugs are an amazing thing, how 400mg of say morphine can make you feel numb and generally good and how 0.006mg of LSD will send you on the biggest ride of your life as you lose your grip of reality and ego and become one with the universe for what seems like a lifetime.

Drug dependence is in my eyes different for each person, whether it be in their genetics, family history, and social circumstances.

The media and government portray images that if you take an Ecstasy pill you WILL die and WRECK your life, and a line of cocaine WILL make u lose your job, and house.

WRONG!

Yes, these amazing substances make you feel so awesome, for 30mins for cocaina and a few hours for an E, but not everyone is going to be addicted from them !

Its like alcohol, I drink alcohol once a week, but that doesnt make me addicted becuase i dont crave it every day and i only drink it when im going out.

I personally have a fascination to how something can alter your mind so much, and what that does feel like.

 

[Ageo]

The media and government portray images that if you take an Ecstasy pill you WILL die and WRECK your life, and a line of cocaine WILL make u lose your job, and house.

WRONG!

Yes, these amazing substances make you feel so awesome, for 30mins for cocaina and a few hours for an E, but not everyone is going to be addicted from them !

Its like alcohol, I drink alcohol once a week, but that doesnt make me addicted becuase i dont crave it every day and i only drink it when im going out.

Hmm yes and no, i have known 1 person that just with 1 bad pill (ecstacy) they have died as there body just couldnt cope. But i agree there is a personal side to getting addicted as i have taken a few pills and many lines of speed and cocaine in my previous years and personally not once have i ever felt the urge to "need" it. I spose to some people drugs is a way out of their misery and it gives them comfort but to me the only reason i took them was for the party and the effect it gave. Knowing where it comes from and the realibility of the dealer does help avoid getting a bad dose. I understand its wrong in the 1st place but i did what i did and have no regrets.

I have noticed every friend of mine that had a severe drug addiction had some real life issues that they just couldnt get a hold of. To me if you find meaning and purpose in your life then drugs will only be a pass time (if you use) and never an addiction. In saying that thow there are just some people that will re-act badly to drugs no matter how well they are dealing with life, i was just speaking for the majority of people.

 

[Trader Paul]

Speaking generally ... and probably stating the obvious...
where does drug dependence begin ? surely with the first time you try it.

Not necessarily 2020. Occassionally experimenting
with drugs does not guarantee, that you will become addicted.

There's many reasons for people to try drugs, once or twice, like:

Sheer curiosity, peer pressure, pain relief, escaping from the realities
of life, family relationships, etc, etc .....

... often it is escapism, that brings people back to drugs, time-after-time
and the more they use their chosen drug, the higher the dosage necessary
to achieve the same euphoric effect. That's when dependency may start
to become apparent and their habit, gradually becomes more expensive.

So, even though their lives may start to seriously detoriate, they have
now compounded their problems ... all of which may have been avoided,
if they had simply addressed the issues confronting them, instead of
trying to find refuge in a bottle or by popping pills or shooting up.



-----

Not that I've had to deal with a drug addict personally (other than nicotine - and a sad story of a kid I used to coach who now has schizophrenia triggered by marijuana) ...
but I'd bet London to a brick that the average drug addict has been a nightmare to deal with (and probably always will be a worry at least) - probably ignored help from loved ones - taken years off everyone's life not just his or her own ....
everyone (including the addict) has been aware of where it was all heading for a long time ... but the addiction came first,

and a family just had to get used to the resultant suffering.

So, a habit typically progresses, with the development
of worsening relationships within the family uint, including verbal and
physical abuse, stealing, self-harm ... and the list goes on and on ...

... eventually, the addicted person will be expelled from the family
and as the support disappears, then the addict may become even
more dependent on drugs and so, they become even more alienated
from their loved ones .....

DRUGS DESTROY FAMILIES !~!

-----

Maybe some (including some sporting heroes) are more affected than others - maybe some control themselves better than others ...

In the end, suppose (again hypothetical) that a sporting hero or a rock star dies,
a) are they promoted to superhuman, sins forgiven? "wasn't he brilliant!" etc
or
b) are they shown to be merely human - in fact probably on the weak side of average, due to the fact that they yielded to temptation - albeit bigger temptation. - My guess is the latter. And then - so much for the hero image - it gets left in tatters you would think.

Western media is responsible for a lot of the hype and
sensationlaism, that surround our sporting heroes ... sports stars are
quite simply "fair game" for an unrelenting press gallery.

Sports heroes may be the very best in their own sports arena, but they
are still human and are susceptible to the same pressures in life, as the
rest of us.

To TEMPORARILY escape from the difficulties of living in the glare of the
media spotlight, some sporting heroes may resort to drugs, often with
the same results, that beset other heavy drug users .....

..... there's no difference between them and us, except for the media
hype broadcasting their plight, into every living room, in Australia.


-----

Or in the wider community, suppose a difficult drug addict dies - is there (in some cases at least) almost a sense of relief?

For some families, this is definitely the case ... especially,
where long-term users have never "admitted and owned" their addiction,
hence they would never admit, that they needed help to be released
from the addiction ... in fact, many addicts are HAPPY to remain in the
grip of addiction for their whole lives ... !~! In those cases, they will
either go to an early grave or put the families under enormous stress
and strain for very long periods.

-----

Do we just try to remember that person as "they used to be pre-drugs", - when we could unreservedly laugh with them, (and reason with them for that matter) - when we had their full attention, and they didn't look around occasionally for a "fix" - whether nicotine or ecstacy or whatever. When there was no competition for that person's attention from some monkey on his or her back.

For the most part, families are quite forgiving about the
transgressions, during the life of an addict who has passed on ... in fact,
they NEED to FORGIVE that person, in order to put aside old grudges
and put that part of their own lives behind them ..... otherwise, the
old grudges fester like internal sores and inhibit the spiritual growth
and health of the survivors ... !~!

-----

I was also curious about the management of a hypothetical sporting hero's image after a hypothetical drug related death. Slightly different point, but I recall someone in show biz in Vegas saying how difficult Elvis was to "manage" whilst he was alive (and frequently drug affected) -
and how easy he was to "manage" after he passed on.

"The difficult king is dead, long live the manageable king"

Unless the drugs are a dominating life issue, most of our
heroes are remembered for their performances in their own area of
achievement ... ie ... Elvis will ALWAYS be remembered for his music,
FIRST and his other idiosynchracies would take a back seat.

Similarly, Freddie Mercury will be remembered for some huge onstage
performances and music with Queen ... but, his exploits as a drug
user and homosexual are all but forgotten, already .....

..... it seems, that the good stuff triumphs in the longer-term, anyway ...

Many thanks for opening this can-o-worms, 2020 .....

have a great day

paul

(volunteer D&A counsellor)



=====

 

[prawn_86]

My view of drugs and addicts could be considered to be narrow, but i do personally know some people who are addicts so my view is not biased.

I tend to believe that if an addict really really wants to give up, then they can. The human mind has an amazing power which is unharnessed by most/all.

Some people might argue that the drugs cloud their mind/body/judgement therefore they dont know they want to give up, but you see some addicts the day after and you can tell that somewhere inside of them they do want too, they just have to find that courage/knowledge within themselves, and realistically there is very little people on the outside can do apart from offer support, as it is up to the individual to want to kick the habit, no matter what habit it is.

 

[Lucky]

I get annoyed at the hypocrisy that the media, government and the powers that be spew about the dangers of "illegal" drugs. A "legally" taxed drug like alcohol does far more damage to society, directly and indirectly, than all illegal drugs combined.

 

[2020hindsight]

1. Some people just shouldn't take drugs. Some shouldn't drink. Some drugs are addictive. Some folk unfortunately have addictive personalities. ........
I think the other thing that you address is the cult of personality. That in itself is a whole other kettle of fish.

Lucky you are the first to suggest it, but several other posters seem to agree lol
the implication is that experimentation is ok?

gee I wish that wasn't the case .... what else can I say

I should add that as a young bloke I argued with various family members ( who can remain nameless) that marijuana was ok - no worse than alcohol etc - I now take back everything I said - not that booze is good - but at least there is such a thing as "alcohol in moderation" - IMO, that doesn't apply to the stronger drugs : 2twocents

2. Realistically speaking its a huge problem that is admitting more people to psychiatric wards than any other cause, I did an assignment on a similar subject and Meth-amphetamine is the worst by far (Speed and Ice).

3. (= 1.) I don't believe dependency starts first time with everyone, Lucky hit the nail on the head: "Some folk unfortunately have addictive personalities. "

4. Very sad to see this happen (ive seen it with friends), but the best thing they can do is get help, unfortunately because these actions (drug use) are not legal and frowned upon by society, many are not keen to seek help.

5. Why do they do what they do? Usually because their friends or associates are doing it seems like the "thing to do", this mixed with the personality which is addictive only leads to heart ache.

2. Meth has gotta be absolute madness.
NO ONE should go near it !!!- surely .
Here's a previous post or two on "videos with a message"
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=195624&highlight=meth#post195624
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=195629&highlight=meth#post195629

I would be eating an icecream and a tooth would fall out .
Every US family currently pays USD 1500 per year in taxes to combat illegal drug use .
"Meth sneaks in and spreads like a virus - with Meth there is more stealing , violence, domestic abuse" , Deberah Durkin, Missesota Dept of Health
etcetc

3. I think that we should be telling kids not even to experiment

4. You introduce the topic of legalisation - o boy
I used to argue - give people access to weed , and cut off the obvious inroads of the heroin pushers .
Again these days I've become less tolerant of marijuana (since that boys sad story - what a great kid - seriously talented - now all "drugged up" on medication to control his schizophrenia )

Do I have to be more pragmatic? - do we classify drugs into
"MUST stamp out,
SHOULD stamp out,
COULD stamp out ?

5a. Peer pressure ? - get a new set of peers maybe?
Being realistic, it ain't gonna happen is it. - One hell of a problem.

5b. "It's OK to say NO" - can apply to teenage sex
or drug experimentation
or a heap of other important matters that kids have to take on board these days. : 2twocents

5c. So many baddies (mafia etc) pushing the concept that drugs are ok - how do we start a movement that says that (hard) drugs are just NOT ok. Prostitutes who are willing slaves to some pimp who just gets em a regular fix - sheesh - talk about a wasted life ..

5d. Somehow get the message through to kids that
"you only go round once" - and
" it is impossible to experience one's death objectively, and still carry a tune" (woody allen)

PS I have a problem - that deep down I don't believe in prohibition ( especially in the case of alcohol) - so what's the answer in the case of both booze and drugs? - education maybe?

 

[2020hindsight]

thanks for the constructive comments folks - good stuff - good to hear from people who know what they're talking about lol - I'll need to read em to digest em - obviously I'm stuck in a suburban backwater, and I have no idea of what I'm talking about lol

HOWEVER, getting back to something I DO understand lol ...

...message? - who needs drugs when you've got Monty Python

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=195673&highlight=monty+python#post195673

 

[tech/a]

where does drug dependence begin ?

When it becomes the norm and expected behaviour.

 

[theasxgorilla]

Drug dependence is in my eyes different for each person, whether it be in their genetics, family history, and social circumstances.

As you say aaronphetamine, drug dependence IS completely different for every single living person. It's a brush with fate, or a numbers game. YOU don't know how YOU or the person standing next to you will cope given exposure to a drug. There are so many variables. The only bullet-proof solution is avoiding exposure...failing that, which in drug rife Australia is practically impossible these days, you can only hope that a sound upbringing and continued tightness, support and harmony of your family unit mean that you're fortunate enough to be able to dabble and withdraw.

 

[cuttlefish]

I think addiction sneaks up on people - they start with experimentation, then it becomes recreation, before they know it time has passed and it controls them more than they control it. For some it spirals completely out of control, others can function for years without realising they've got a serious problem.

 

[2020hindsight]

.1. ..learning and personal experiences in chemistry including a favourite of mine - psychopharmacology.

2. I think drugs are an amazing thing, .....how 0.006mg of LSD will send you on the biggest ride of your life as you lose your grip of reality and ego and become one with the universe for what seems like a lifetime.

3. The media and government portray images that if you take an Ecstasy pill you WILL die and WRECK your life, and a line of cocaine WILL make u lose your job, and house. WRONG! .....not everyone is going to be addicted from them !

4. (how about) alcohol....

5. ....I personally have a fascination to how something can alter your mind so much, and what that does feel like.

aaron...
1. psychopharmacology. - mate you'd have to be psycho to be a farmer in the first place

2. yep, LSD was researched extensively when it first came out (back in the 60s) - university trials - with "shepherds" escorting you through the trip - interview all the while etc . Then they found people were prone to relapses - suddenly became "LSD epileptics" (my words). suddenly "not so cool" anymore.

3. mmm - I don't agree that the Govt are that far wrong ... certainly I think it is seriously unwise to experiment

4. booze? - sure some alcoholics are big worries - that goes for driving of course - as they say " people who insist on drinking before driving are putting the quart before the hearse"

5. - yep it is so mindboggling how it is so mindboggling !

 

[JeSSica WaBBit]

I have a different opinion to most when it comes to drugs, i take them when i feel like it and i enjoy every minute of it.

I am not addicted, last time i had anything was about 6 months ago and it was E. Saying that, if i felt like it this weekend i wouldnt have a second thought. However, i'd only do E, weed, coke, a little speed.

I don't see a problem with it and think it each to their own. Nothing worse than some do gooder trying to tell you how to live your life. Ned Flanders of this world, can't stand them!!

Saying that, there's drugs and there's drugs. And this is the problem as far as i see it.
You must consider dose and also what drugs you are taking. I wouldn't touch anything that has to be injected, crack or some of the other so called dirty drugs, not for me. However, i'd rather be out with people popping pills all blissed out than be around agressive alcohol fueled chargers.

You can't go around telling youngsters to NOT TAKE DRUGS. It simply does not work, if you have not figured that out by now your a very slow learner. Just take the consumption of drugs in Australia, it grows every year so what ever method is being used to try and reduce consumption obviously does not work.

Have you ever considered some people enjoy drugs occasionally recreationally. Not a very PC statement but everyone i know does them and i dont see a problem with it.

I have a very good job and most the poeple at work take them recreationally.

I'd say wake up and smell the dasies, time to educate people about HARM MINIMISATION rather than try and say no.

For those that dont take them, thats your choice, good luck to you but don't go Ned Flandering me about what i should and shouldn't be doing.

You only get one life and i love every minute of it.

JW

 

[1234]

Drug dependence starts with a need. Everything in life starts with a need. Forget wants and needs, there's wants and wants..

Why do we want?

We are selfish creatures.

Even when we think we're doing something to help someone else, we only do it for the self gratification. Helping doing someone for someone, it gives us the satisfaction we've 'done good'. Purely a selfish action. Everyone get's something from whatever they do.

Why do people turn to drugs? They get something from it they want. A break from reality and whats actually happening perhaps? No-one likes the 'real world' It's too daunting. Pressure is high, expectations are higher. Youth suicide anyone??

No matter what level of use, no matter the substance. The problem is not the substance. The issue is a by-product of all of us....

 

[2020hindsight]

Not necessarily 2020. Occassionally experimenting
with drugs does not guarantee, that you will become addicted.

There's many reasons for people to try drugs, once or twice, like: ... often it is escapism, that brings people back to drugs, time-after-time
and the more they use their chosen drug, the higher the dosage necessary
to achieve the same euphoric effect. That's when dependency may start
to become apparent and their habit, gradually becomes more expensive.

So, even though their lives may start to seriously detoriate, they have
now compounded their problems ... all of which may have been avoided,
if they had simply addressed the issues confronting them, instead of
trying to find refuge in a bottle or by popping pills or shooting up.

So, a habit typically progresses, with the development
of worsening relationships within the family uint, including verbal and
physical abuse, stealing, self-harm ... and the list goes on and on ...

... eventually, the addicted person will be expelled from the family
and as the support disappears, then the addict may become even
more dependent on drugs and so, they become even more alienated
from their loved ones .....

DRUGS DESTROY FAMILIES !~!

.........
To TEMPORARILY escape from the difficulties of living in the glare of the
media spotlight, some sporting heroes may resort to drugs, often with
the same results, that beset other heavy drug users .....

..... there's no difference between them and us, except for the media
hype broadcasting their plight, into every living room, in Australia.

.........many addicts are HAPPY to remain in the grip of addiction for their whole lives ... !~! In those cases, they will either go to an early grave or put the families under enormous stress and strain for very long periods.
............. in fact, they NEED to FORGIVE that person, in order to put aside old grudges and put that part of their own lives behind them ..... .......health of the survivors ... !~!

...... Elvis will ALWAYS be remembered for his music,
FIRST and his other idiosynchracies would take a back seat.

Many thanks for opening this can-o-worms, 2020 .....
have a great day , paul , (volunteer D&A counsellor)

we should have had a poll lol
experimenting is
a) ok
b) not ok

I like your conclusion "all of which may have been avoided, if they had simply addressed the issues confronting them"

And you have to forgive someone once they move on - but I was more thinking that there would be a sense of relief as well - something like ... "at last !! - something to do in life other than worry about that selfish bastards drug addiction!!" -

"Elvis will be remembered for his music " - probably more so than if he'd been alive and continued to embarrass himself in public lol. ( but you're right - his memory has been well managed )

"volunteer D&A counsellor" = well done m8.
must be interesting, trying to get people to help themselves (as prawn also alludes to)

As I mentioned elsewhere, my boys get it pretty easy in the parental guidance department - beer fridge downstairs - never a weekend goes past that they and a few of their mates don't crash in the downstairs room rather than go home - still I figure it's good to get it out of their system - I think I detect some responsibility creeping in

 

[Gar]

I think people need to open their minds with regards to illegal substances, some drugs have real potential to have positive effects on peoples lives but are shut out because they have "recreational" value.

MDMA for example is an amazing tool for helping people with anxiety disorders or post traumatic stress open up and work through their problems but in the eyes of the public its viewed as a suicide pill

It really annoys the hell out of me when I listen to people that are happy to drink themselves stupid criticizing people for indulging in drugs other than alcohol

 

[Dukey]

INteresting topic.., and posts

I get annoyed at the hypocrisy that the media, government and the powers that be spew about the dangers of "illegal" drugs. A "legally" taxed drug like alcohol does far more damage to society, directly and indirectly, than all illegal drugs combined.

I get your point totally lucky and said the same thing to my niece today - her mother is an alcoholic. BUT - imagine the sh%te we'd be in if anyone could buy 'ice' at the local BWS. ALcohol can destroy a brain - but it generally happens over a long period of time. Narcotics can do it in few minutes, or a few hits. It's a big big gamble.

The other point made somewhere back there about people with 'unresolved life issues' being more suseptible to becoming addicts, may well be true. Here I would add that every one of us has many difficult 'life issues' at times. ANd that is the danger time for casual users ... the time when the occasional weekend eccy or goey or whatever becomes a crutch to escape the problems. I've seen it happen that way with friends and its a long road back. PLenty don't make it.

 

[aaronphetamine]

Its funny, in the valley you see the poor old police and ambulance rushing to fights and brawls fuelled by alcohol, then across the road you see all the people on E, all talking laughing and havin a great time, all talking to each other in a heightened state of consciousness.

I think the police have admitted that alcohol causes more problems in club districts than Ecstasy use does.

How could people not wana try it, especially when the club calls its friday nights "pharmacy fridays", i spose though pharmacy is a broad term, but we all know what they mean. after all it is at the family nightclub... yes thats right.. family nightclub - its one big HAPPY family in there.

At the bars in the city u bump into some ojne and they nearly wanna deck ya, but in the family, u bump into some one and they smile give ya a hug and a handshake haha.