Tasered for asking John Kerry questions

[wayneL]

Question: How do folks think Aussie police would have handled this situation?

Explod, would love to hear your insights on this question.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Question: How do folks think Aussie police would have handled this situation?

Explod, would love to hear your insights on this question.

Sorry wayneL I'm no explod but for what its worth

This would not usually happen in Australia.

1. People have more important things to do than turn up to political meetings.

2. If they do they say what they have to and then shut up.

3. If they don't the crowd shut them up.

4. Contrary argument is tolerated in Australia at public meetings (and usually on internet forums).

5. If someone ever behaved like this they would have been grappled and taken outside, asked politely by the police to get into a paddy wagon, what they would like for dinner, entree or soup etc., the usual stuff that police ask.
and probably given some time to cool off and then given a good kick in the **** and kicked out of the station.

Garpal .

 

[drmb]

drmb - Lemme understand you too - a student who suggests that Bush be impeached before he attacks Iran is a SOB. But Phelps is in a far lesser league IYO?

I referred to the young man in Florida as an SB (Spoiled Brat) - not an SOB; I've met some SOBs in my time and he is definitely not one of them. Now a real SOB would be a 12 year old in Sierra Leone with an AK47 and a machete, high on drugs, playing the numbers game with his captives.* Grafton Camp is a facility for former child soldiers (some as young as 7) operated by UNICEF and local partners. To get into the "gang" they all had to murder a parent or . Try Googling that for more information.

The Florida SB in question was tasered not for asking questions but for resisting officers, and only after being repeatedly warned. His actions physical and verbal after his mic was cut off clearly imo represented a potential threat and was then treated according to the SOP. As mentioned before, I beleive the officers behaved without excessive force, you don't, so be it.

In my line of work I have far more serious situations to deal with with respect to loss of health, life and loss of liberty, and appalling poverty, then to worry about non-lethal use of legal restraining methods on SBs.

If you really want to get involved in human rights then better to eg agitate about Dafur and Janjaweed, Somalia and warlords, Afganistan and ditto, Zimbabwe and Mugabe, etc, etc, etc. Take care and try to not to get too emotionally attached to trivial issues!!!

* You must pick a number between 1 and 5. 1 you get your left arm machetted off, 2 your lips, 3 your ears, 4 your head, etc

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

I referred to the young man in Florida as an SB (Spoiled Brat) - not an SOB; I've met some SOBs in my time and he is definitely not one of them. Now a real SOB would be a 12 year old in Sierra Leone with an AK47 and a machete, high on drugs, playing the numbers game with his captives.* Grafton Camp is a facility for former child soldiers (some as young as 7) operated by UNICEF and local partners. To get into the "gang" they all had to murder a parent or . Try Googling that for more information.

The Florida SB in question was tasered not for asking questions but for resisting officers, and only after being repeatedly warned. His actions physical and verbal after his mic was cut off clearly imo represented a potential threat and was then treated according to the SOP. As mentioned before, I beleive the officers behaved without excessive force, you don't, so be it.

In my line of work I have far more serious situations to deal with with respect to loss of health, life and loss of liberty, and appalling poverty, then to worry about non-lethal use of legal restraining methods on SBs.

If you really want to get involved in human rights then better to eg agitate about Dafur and Janjaweed, Somalia and warlords, Afganistan and ditto, Zimbabwe and Mugabe, etc, etc, etc. Take care and try to not to get too emotionally attached to trivial issues!!!

* You must pick a number between 1 and 5. 1 you get your left arm machetted off, 2 your lips, 3 your ears, 4 your head, etc

Well said drmb.

Agree totally.

Garpal

 

[wayneL]

Sorry wayneL I'm no explod but for what its worth

This would not usually happen in Australia.

1. People have more important things to do than turn up to political meetings.

2. If they do they say what they have to and then shut up.

3. If they don't the crowd shut them up.

4. Contrary argument is tolerated in Australia at public meetings (and usually on internet forums).

5. If someone ever behaved like this they would have been grappled and taken outside, asked politely by the police to get into a paddy wagon, what they would like for dinner, entree or soup etc., the usual stuff that police ask.
and probably given some time to cool off and then given a good kick in the **** and kicked out of the station.

Garpal .

Garp,

Re 1. and 2. - Clearly nonsense.

Re 3. - Maybe, maybe not. Would depend on the meeting and the nature of the topic.

Re 4. - Agree generally, which is why this incident has an exclamation mark for us. Just how much DO we want to be like the US? (How many forums have you been on? Many will ban at the drop of a hat)

Re 5. - Agree. This would be a good model for those US coppers. No way would an Oz copper have tased in this situation. The kick in the nuts would be a slim minority also... a telephone directory and a truncheon against the ribcage is more likely.

Thanks for your opinion, I think it rather confirms my thoughts on the other matter.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Garp,

Re 1. and 2. - Clearly nonsense.

Re 3. - Maybe, maybe not. Would depend on the meeting and the nature of the topic.

Re 4. - Agree generally, which is why this incident has an exclamation mark for us. Just how much DO we want to be like the US? (How many forums have you been on? Many will ban at the drop of a hat)

Re 5. - Agree. This would be a good model for those US coppers. No way would an Oz copper have tased in this situation. The kick in the nuts would be a slim minority also... a telephone directory and a truncheon against the ribcage is more likely.

Thanks for your opinion, I think it rather confirms my thoughts on the other matter.

Sorry wayneL

Lost you there mate

To what are you referring "the other matter"

Garpal

 

[wayneL]

I referred to the young man in Florida as an SB (Spoiled Brat) - not an SOB; I've met some SOBs in my time and he is definitely not one of them. Now a real SOB would be a 12 year old in Sierra Leone with an AK47 and a machete, high on drugs, playing the numbers game with his captives.* Grafton Camp is a facility for former child soldiers (some as young as 7) operated by UNICEF and local partners. To get into the "gang" they all had to murder a parent or . Try Googling that for more information.

The Florida SB in question was tasered not for asking questions but for resisting officers, and only after being repeatedly warned. His actions physical and verbal after his mic was cut off clearly imo represented a potential threat and was then treated according to the SOP. As mentioned before, I beleive the officers behaved without excessive force, you don't, so be it.

In my line of work I have far more serious situations to deal with with respect to loss of health, life and loss of liberty, and appalling poverty, then to worry about non-lethal use of legal restraining methods on SBs.

If you really want to get involved in human rights then better to eg agitate about Dafur and Janjaweed, Somalia and warlords, Afganistan and ditto, Zimbabwe and Mugabe, etc, etc, etc. Take care and try to not to get too emotionally attached to trivial issues!!!

* You must pick a number between 1 and 5. 1 you get your left arm machetted off, 2 your lips, 3 your ears, 4 your head, etc

drmb,

Kudos for your work on overseas postings and thank you for highlighting the differences in western society and some third world hellholes. However, I just cannot see the relevance The Congo or Somalia has to how law is administered in the United States or other western countries. It is irrelevant.

Re the taser thing; clearly, discussion is not resulting in the convergence of thinking, despite the apparent cognitive dissonance of some of the pro tasered group.

Unless folks have any further facts or logic, we are going to be going around in circles.

Checking out now unless something interesting comes up.

 

[drmb]

Garp, Re 1. and 2. - Clearly nonsense. etc

Wayne, I really think you need to get someone else in to moderate this thread since you have such a strong view. Moderators need to mediate, and be neutral imo! This is a bit like having the ump come and give the footy a bit of a kick now and then!

 

[wayneL]

Sorry wayneL

Lost you there mate

To what are you referring "the other matter"

Garpal

The taser incident.

Cheers

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

Wayne, I really think you need to get someone else in to moderate this thread since you have such a strong view. Moderators need to mediate, and be neutral imo! This is a bit like having the ump come and give the footy a bit of a kick now and then!

Agree totally.

This could be a good thread and should not be closed down.

Cool heads make for reasonable arguments.

Garpal

 

[wayneL]

Wayne, I really think you need to get someone else in to moderate this thread since you have such a strong view. Moderators need to mediate, and be neutral imo! This is a bit like having the ump come and give the footy a bit of a kick now and then!

I will never moderate anyone's opinion on a subject, no matter how much I object to it. I am not umpiring a footy game here and my views on this thread have nothing to do with moderating.

But as I say, checking out for now.

Ciao

 

[wayneL]

Agree totally.

This could be a good thread and should not be closed down.

Cool heads make for reasonable arguments.

Garpal

As the thread is on topic, there is no reason or threat to close it down... refer to avatar.

 

[2020hindsight]

Wayne, I really think you need to get someone else in to moderate this thread since you have such a strong view. Moderators need to mediate, and be neutral imo! This is a bit like having the ump come and give the footy a bit of a kick now and then!

drmb
lol
If I were you, I'd be asking the mods to delete my posts - my version of the incident - rather than have it stand as a beacon of your reluctance to see this incident accurately WITHOUT accepting the spindoctored reporting from the USA press.

If we agree that they use tasers "shooting from the hip" - obviously figuratively - then we should ask ourselves..

1. Is USA
a) a police state (with or without fascist overtones)
b) a seriously unhealthy democracy
c) a mildly unhealthy democracy
d) a healthy democracy

2. Is AUS
a) a police state (with or without fascist overtones)
b) a seriously unhealthy democracy
c) a mildly unhealthy democracy
d) a healthy democracy

Finally
3. Should we follow USA
a) regarding their human rights issues
b) on policing trends
c) on tasers
d) into the blind bible belt
e) anywhere and/or on anything
f) into War in Iraq
g) into war in Iran

or
4. should
a) they be following us more, and
b) should we be giving a clearer more moral message to our leaders that they improve their act

PS My posts #130 and #160 refer - my version, and the Disarray/ dmrb / garpal version
PPS - hey not just the US press version - you add a heap of spins yourself(ves)

 

[Sean K]

Anyone considered this guy set it up?

 

[drmb]

If we agree that they use tasers "shooting from the hip" - obviously figuratively - then we should ask ourselves..

I obviously don't agree! I saw non-lethal force being used as a last resort, and according to what must be formal training. I also don't agree that the US and Aus are anywhere like police states, there are about 140 countries in front of them on that score. The US and Aus are democracies but being democratic doesn't mean we accept threats, and that if a threat presents it is not dealt with. I saw a Spoilt Brat out of control before he was restrained, I saw no excessive force, I saw police officers acting obviously in accord with their training, I see no reason not to have the same non-lethal force used in Australia! You have a view, I have a view, I won't change and neither it appears will you. So be it.

 

[drmb]

Anyone considered this guy set it up?

Yes i do, I made the point in a previous post. He appeared to be wanting to be a martyr and he got his way!

 

[2020hindsight]

I obviously don't agree! I saw non-lethal force being used as a last resort, and according to what must be formal training. I also don't agree that the US and Aus are anywhere like police states, there are about 140 countries in front of them on that score. The US and Aus are democracies but being democratic doesn't mean we accept threats, and that if a threat presents it is not dealt with. ...

Well I see many countries ahead of us (Aus) since we "locked hips with Bush". Nearly all of Europe for starters.
Whether that's 1, 14 or 140 not important.
It could be "nil", and I'd still be looking for us to improve if I thought there was room for improvement.
Could we improve? you bet we could.
Could USA improve ? ( more relevant question would be "could they get much worse - and still claim / pretend to be "land of the free, home of the brave")

btw, it's BS in my opinion that he posed a threat
and it's absolute BS that they needed to taser that bloke.

You say it was non-lethal - I'll cover that in another post .
But again you are incorrect.

 

[cuttlefish]

you're watching a different video to me. i totally disagree with your assessment of the this incident.

Well I've explained my reasons as to why I believe the initial restraint was without cause, you haven't, you've just stated that you disagree. Thus far after several pages I still can't see any explanation as to why the initial restraint occurred - what law was broken that required him to be arrested in the first place? If he didn't do anything that required arrest then he was being assaulted. It is human nature to resist and defend ones self against an assault.

I doubt in any of the responses that follow an explanation as to why he was restrained in the first place will be provided either. Instead he'll be referred to as a spoilt brat, tazer tard etc. and we'll have the politics of third world countries used to justify the criminal behaviour of police in a supposed free democracy.

An interesting irony that some consider being restrained and assaulted by 5 people makes you a wimp, but tazering someone that is being restrained by 5 people is actually heroic behavoiur and all part of defending freedom and democracy.

 

[2020hindsight]

drmb
You say that tasers are non-lethal.
You also proclaim that you're close to international justice organisations.
Here's Amnesty International on the subject (note that there were already 74 deaths in USA in 2004) :-
http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=15772
First Summary:-

The report includes a review by Amnesty International of information on 74 taser-involved deaths, based on a range of sources, including autopsy reports in 21 cases. Most of those who died were unarmed men who, while displaying disturbed or combative behaviour, did not appear to present a serious threat to the lives or safety of others.

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=15772

Second Summary:-
"home of the brave?"
taking into account a person's condition before tasering them?
how about this one - tasering a pregnant women in the stomach (TWICE) after being told she was pregnant
yep - "land of the free, home of the brave"

wedding reception - noise - The police claimed (mrs) Madison struck and shoved several officers and ran into the house. - she denied it - She was discovered hiding in a clothes cupboard and, after being warned, was shot (not once but) twice in the abdomen with a taser when she refused to come out. .... who tasered her despite being told by several guests that she was two months pregnant. Madison was taken to a police station and released the same night, after being charged in connection with the incident. She received no medical attention while in police custody, apart from having taser darts removed by paramedics. She went to a hospital immediately on her release and, according to her lawyer, was told her baby's vital signs were weak... lost baby soon after[/B].

http://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=15772

UK: Tasers trialled by UK police revealed as potentially lethal and prone to abuse in new report
Posted: 30 November 2004

Amnesty International UK is calling for a public statement by the UK Home Office and police chiefs that the potentially-lethal devices will be treated as such: only issued to trained firearms officers and used only where necessary to avoid threats to life or serious injury. The organisation is also calling for a rigorous, independent and impartial study into the use and effects of tasers.

The devices, which deliver a 50,000-volt electric shock and intense pain, are inherently open to abuse, says the report. In the US they have been used against unruly schoolchildren including a nine-year-old, against pregnant women - one of whom lost her baby shortly afterwards - and against unarmed, mentally ill people and those who simply fail to comply immediately with a verbal command.

Amnesty International UK Director Kate Allen said:

"Tasers have been used in the US against pregnant women, unruly schoolchildren and mentally ill people. In some cases, simply walking away from a police officer has led to people getting a 50,000 volt electric shock. Is this a glimpse into the future of UK policing?

"With over 70 deaths following taser use in the US, surely we must have a full enquiry into their effects before the government even considers any wider deployment on Britain's streets.

"We want an assurance from the Home Office and police chiefs that tasers will only be issued to trained firearms officers and kept locked in the firearms box. Tasers could kill, so they must be treated as lethal weapons."

The report includes a review by Amnesty International of information on 74 taser-involved deaths, based on a range of sources, including autopsy reports in 21 cases. Most of those who died were unarmed men who, while displaying disturbed or combative behaviour, did not appear to present a serious threat to the lives or safety of others.

Kate Allen said:

"Many experts believe taser shocks may exacerbate a risk of heart failure in people who are under the influence of drugs or suffer underlying health problems such as heart disease - risk factors present in many of the cases we examined.

"What is more, tasers have the capacity to inflict severe pain at the push of a button, without leaving substantial marks. This makes them particularly open to abuse."

Cases

Willam Teasley, aged 31, died in Anderson County Detention Center, South Carolina in August 2004. Officers reportedly used a taser to subdue him after he became violent while being booked into the jail and "shortly after he was shocked [he] stopped breathing". A preliminary autopsy reportedly showed he had died from cardiac arrest. The deputy county coroner, Charlie Boseman, is quoted as saying the taser contributed to Teasley's death, combined with a medical history that included heart disease. Teasley reportedly had other health problems, including severe brain damage resulting from an accident in 2003. The preliminary autopsy report was passed to the State Law Enforcement Division investigation team, with a final determination of manner of death pending the results of this inquiry.

this one tasersed 6 times WHILST HANDCUFFED.

James Borden was arrested in November 2003 and died shortly after the administration of the last of six electro-shocks, delivered while his hands were cuffed behind his back. The medical examiner released a statement listing cause of death as a heart attack, drug intoxication and electrical shock.
One of the officers involved reportedly said:

"I asked Borden to lift up his foot to remove the shorts, but he was being combative and refused. I dry stunned Borden in the lower abdominal area ... We got Borden into the booking area. Borden was still combative and uncooperative. I dried stunned [sic] Borden in the buttocks area..." After the final shock, the officer "noticed that Borden was no longer responsive and his face was discoloured."

BTW, turns out that a Phelps WAS tasered, - at least his grandchild - not recently, not in Queanbeyan, but 2004 in Illinois - just that it was an unborn child.
and all over a noisy wedding party.

Clarence Phelps and his pregnant daughter, Romona Madison, filed a lawsuit in September 2004 against police from Evergreen Park Police Department, Illinois, alleging that they were tasered and subjected to excessive force outside their home. On 18 September 2004 at the daughter's wedding reception, police arrived in response to a complaint about loud music and people dancing in the driveway. According to police accounts reported in the media, Phelps was uncooperative and was stunned with the taser after he allegedly pushed two officers. The police claimed Madison struck and shoved several officers and ran into the house. She was discovered hiding in a clothes cupboard and, after being warned, was shot twice in the abdomen with a taser when she refused to come out. Lawyers for the family claim that neither Phelps nor Madison had fought with officers and that Madison was followed into the house by overzealous officers who tasered her despite being told by several guests that she was two months pregnant. Madison was taken to a police station and released the same night, after being charged in connection with the incident. She received no medical attention while in police custody, apart from having taser darts removed by paramedics. She went to a hospital immediately on her release and, according to her lawyer, was told her baby's vital signs were weak[/B].

Notes

The report recognizes the need to develop non-lethal or "less than lethal" force options, but highlights the fact that the use of stun technology in law enforcement raises a number of concerns for the protection of human rights.

Amnesty acknowledges that there may be situations where tasers can effectively be used as "stand-off", defensive weapons as an alternative to firearms in order to save lives. However, it appears that in practice tasers are rarely used as an alternative to firearms in the USA and most departments place them at a relatively low level on the "force scale".

 

[Julia]

Anyone considered this guy set it up?

Yes, he has a history of being a stirrer.
But I suppose that is not relevant to the topic at hand, i.e. was the taser appropriate.
Could, however, have some bearing on the police's handling of him, e.g. can't remember the name of that serial pest we have here in Australia? Someone will know who I mean.