Tasered for asking John Kerry questions

[cuttlefish]

But those police reports are almost comedic in their inaccuracy and spin, particularly the first one. LOL

yeah I agree the police reports are filled with inaccuracies and conflict with what is actually visible on the video, which makes you wonder at the accuracy of their recollection of the events prior to the video commencing.

The anecdotes of one staunch republican student aren't exactly compelling evidence either, though the account does read credibly enough even though we can verifty the accuracy of it. In it I can't see anything that adds particularly to the story. The only additional information I can see in it is that prior to the video being shot Meyers went to the mike and interrupted to ask Kerry to stay and answer everybody's questions, to which Kerry agreed.

 

[disarray]

Being rude, attention seeking and an idiot are not grounds for arrest!

yes they are. public nuisance, drunk and disorderly, offensive behaviour laws all regulate how much of an asshole you can be in public.

and he wasn't going to be arrested, he was going to be ejected. he was only arrested after he became violent.

 

[rederob]

yes they are. public nuisance, drunk and disorderly, offensive behaviour laws all regulate how much of an asshole you can be in public.

and he wasn't going to be arrested, he was going to be ejected. he was only arrested after he became violent.

Given that I didn't mention the things you claim, you only answer your own question.
Oh, and he was being ejected for asking questions at a forum where the speaker invited questions, and was even willing to answer the questions as Meyers was being dragged out of the forum.
Yes, I can see the logic in that.

 

[2020hindsight]

people with the courage to protest when they don't like what their leaders are doing - whether vocalised or not.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/09/27/2045621.htm

Police issue ultimatum to Burma protesters
Posted 1 hour 56 minutes ago
Updated 1 hour 32 minutes ago
.....
Crowds of protesters in central Rangoon, in Burma, have scattered after more then 200 soldiers and police marched through the streets with loudspeakers, ordering people to go home or risk being shot, a witness said.
.....
At least 100 people have been arrested and thrown into military trucks by soldiers.

After telling people to clear the area in 10 minutes, the soldiers advanced up the street away from the pagoda, their rifles at their sides. Police banged their rattan riot shields with batons.

"It's a terrifying noise," one witness said.

Apart from the odd terrified pedestrian scurrying for cover, a crowd of 100 people stood on the road 500 metres from the soldiers, who halted at a road junction near the central railway station. A tense stand-off ensued.

In chaotic scenes in the city centre, protesters also stopped a truck carrying bricks and used them to pelt a police post near the Traders Hotel.

Pro-junta civilian gangs were also deployed in the heart of the former capital, a city of five million people.

Witnesses told Reuters that tear gas and warning shots were fired in clashes between crowds and soldiers and riot police who had raided some monasteries in South Okkalapa in the former Burma's remote north-east.

Witnesses said they had seen a foreigner being carried away by four policemen. It is unclear if he was injured or being arrested. At least three people were hurt.

Raids witness
A man who was at one of the six monasteries which were raided by Burma troops overnight has given a chilling account of the violent assaults and widespread arrests.

"The soldiers ran up to the first floor of the monastery and grabbed the head monk by his neck and dragged him downstairs," he said.

"They beat up the other monks with batons and sticks. They kicked the sleeping novices to wake them up and asked them if any monks were hiding."

"The novices were shaking with fear. It's as if they were raiding a rebel camp."

Torture threat
Human rights group Amnesty International has warned hundreds of arrested protesters in Burma are at risk of torture and ill treatment in custody.

"Amnesty International believes these and other detainees are at grave risk of torture or other ill-treatment," the London-based rights watchdog said in a statement.

"Human rights violations in Myanmar are widespread and systematic... people are frequently arrested without warrant and held incommunicado; torture and other cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment are common."

 

[2020hindsight]

o boy - a man is shot after he's blinded with capsicum spray !!

He would have been completely blinded - then he would have felt bullet wound.

and that's put forward as a reason to get tasers

Police say they used capsicum spray before shooting the man, who they say was throwing knives at them.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/25/2070042.htm?section=justin

Oppn wants stun guns for Qld police
Posted 34 minutes ago

The Queensland Opposition says the police shooting of a man at Gatton in the state's south-east highlights the need for officers to be issued with stun guns.

The 27-year-old is recovering from gunshot wounds at the Princess Alexandra Hospital while the Ethical Standards Command investigates the incident.

Police say they used capsicum spray before shooting the man, who they say was throwing knives at them.

Opposition spokesman Rob Messenger says Police Minister Judy Spence must now reconsider her attitude to deploying tasers.

Mr Messenger says taser trials should end and the stun guns should be rolled out.

"We've got a trial of tasers and it's only a very limited trial to three areas," he said.

"We've got metro north, metro south, and the Gold Coast area, and I'd like to see tasers rolled out everywhere in the state to all frontline officers because the bottom line there is that it would save lives.

"This trial seems to be an excuse not to do anything and importantly the tasers, even in the trial that's being conducted now, are only issued to supervisory officers.

"They need to be given to frontline police officers."

 

[Ageo]

Well what do you expect when throwing knives at the police? for them to not use their weapon? i bet he will re-think his actions next time he is in a similar situation.

 

[professor_frink]

o boy - a man is shot after he's blinded with capsicum spray !!

He would have been completely blinded - then he would have felt bullet wound.

and that's put forward as a reason to get tasers



http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/25/2070042.htm?section=justin

If they were anything more than butter knives, then good on the coppers.

I do agree with you though 2020- what do they need tasers for when they have guns. The guns obviously did a pretty good job here.

And where does it say that the man was blinded from the capsicum spray

 

[2020hindsight]

If they were anything more than butter knives, then good on the coppers.

I do agree with you though 2020- what do they need tasers for when they have guns. The guns obviously did a pretty good job here.

And where does it say that the man was blinded from the capsicum spray

prof, ok my assumption was that they used capsicum spray and that it hit him in the face. (where does it say it didn't lol? )

As it reads, (and as I initially took it to mean - during quick skim of ABC "just-in" during lunch hour),
"they used capsicum spray before shooting the man",
I thought capsicum spray was used (successfully), then they shot him. But I concede there is an assumption in there.

But I'll happily stand corrected on that IF it turns out that they were NOT able to mace him in the face for some reason (would be a first surely).

My guess is that you're not suggesting that OC spray (pepper spray) doesn't temporarily blind you once you are hit. (?)
i.e. that you'd agree that it forces you to close your eyes (?).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mace_(spray)
If in contact with eyes it causes automatic closing of the eyes due to intense pain if open. This along with a feeling of suffocating if inhaled it causes the person to be very vulnerable and dependent, resulting in easy overpowering (for example, law enforcement officials over a suspect).

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/25/2069603.htm
Police shoot knife-wielding man in south-east Qld
A man has been shot during an altercation with Queensland police at Gatton, near Toowoomba, in the state s south-east. Police say they attended a domestic disturbance around 10pm AEST, where they were confronted by a 27-year-old man who threatened them with a knife.

Incidentally ... This post is from February ( different incident , same area). Gatton sounds like a wild spot.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/02/14/1847650.htm
Teen to face court over Gatton stabbing
Posted Wed Feb 14, 2007 2:00pm AEDT

A 15-year-old girl has been charged with unlawful wounding and is due to appear in Gatton Children's Court after a man was stabbed.

Police say the 20-year-old man is in a stable condition in Toowoomba Hospital after being attacked in a home at Gatton yesterday afternoon.

 

[2020hindsight]

Appreciate your comments, explod -
Would you say that OC spray is adequate for most incidents/ circumstances?

or rather - would it be necessary to do anything in addition to OC spray (IF it was successfully applied). (?)

btw, as per my original post, I would argue that knives prior to then arguably become irrelevant to the argument - or at least irrelevant to the point I was making, or trying to make - if they were able to OC spray him (imo).


Not that this stuff is harmless either .....
Here's a better wikipedia reference to OC spray... (mace being ambiguous apparently) ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray
Pepper spray is an inflammatory agent as opposed to an irritant like Mace. It causes immediate closing of the eyes, difficulty breathing, runny nose, and coughing. The duration of its effects depend on the strength of the spray but the average full effect lasts around thirty to forty-five minutes, with diminished effects lasting for hours.

The Journal of Investigative Ophthalmology and Visual Science published a study that concluded that single exposure of the eye to OC is harmless, but repeated exposure can result in long-lasting changes in corneal sensitivity. They found no lasting decrease in visual acuity.[4]

The European Parliament Scientific and Technological Options Assessment (STOA) published in 1998 “An Appraisal of Technologies of Political Control”[5] with extensive information on pepper spray and tear gas. They write:

"The effects of pepper spray are far more severe, including temporary blindness which last from 15-30 minutes, a burning sensation of the skin which last from 45 to 60 minutes, upper body spasms which force a person to bend forward and uncontrollable coughing making it difficult to breathe or speak for between 3 to 15 minutes."

For those with asthma, taking other drugs, or subject to restraining techniques which restrict the breathing passages, there is a risk of death. The Los Angeles Times has reported at least 61 deaths associated with police use of pepper spray since 1990 in the USA,[6] and the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) documented 27 deaths in custody of people sprayed with pepper spray in California alone, since 1993.[7][8] ... etc

 

[explod]

Appreciate your comments, explod -
Would you say that OC spray is adequate for most incidents/ circumstances?

or rather - would it be necessary to do anything in addition to OC spray (IF it was successfully applied). (?)

btw, as per my original post, I would argue that knives prior to then arguably become irrelevant to the argument - or at least irrelevant to the point I was making, or trying to make - if they were able to OC spray him (imo).


Not that this stuff is harmless either .....
Here's a better wikipedia reference to OC spray... (mace being ambiguous apparently) ..

I am unable to help objectively 2020..., as the use of OC spray was just being approved for use operationally at the time of my retirement. I had seen its effects in experimental demonstrations and it is very effective if conditions are right, eg., no wind and direct application.

The other problem I have is the growing links between lawmaking, peacekeeping and government. In my view the principals of the Westminster system, such as impartiality, a fair go and innocent unless found guilty are now out the door. Discussions about the (draconian) use of sprays and electric shocks to fellow humans is disgusting so say the least and I want none of it.

 

[2020hindsight]

thanks for that explod -
needs more research

I notice that the wikipedia page ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray

makes reference to the fact that some facts are disputed, and refers you to a "talk page"....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Pepper_spray
.... later

Internationally pepper spray is banned for use in war by the 1972 Biological Weapons convention but not for internal security use.

In Western Australia, it is legal for a person to carry pepper spray for lawful defense, if that person has, on reasonable grounds, a suspicion or belief that he or she will require the pepper spray to defend himself or herself. However, the person found carrying the pepper spray carries the burden of proving a "reasonable belief or suspicion" rather than the prosecution. In all other states and territories in Australia, pepper spray is considered illegal.

In Canada ...classified as a restricted weapon [15], however, only Peace Officers, and individuals/corporations who have special government permits may legally carry or possess pepper spray. Any similar canister with the labels reading "dog spray" and/or "bear spray" may be legally carried by anyone, and if necessary one can defend himself against a human if it is a reasonable defense against a human attacker.

In Denmark possession of pepper spray is illegal for private citizens, but a trial period is currently in effect, where police officers in most metropolitan areas carry pepper spray as part of their standard equipment.

In the Dominican Republic, it is legal to own and purchase pepper spray at any age over the counter, CS spray is regulated and may be used only by military personnel on duty. Owning civilian grade pepper spray is endorsed by authorities as means of defense against stray dogs, also as a means of defense against human assailants as opposed to the use of a firearm.

In Finland it is classified as a device governed by the firearm act and possession of pepper spray requires a license.

In Germany privately owned pepper spray may fall into two different categories. Sprays that bear the test mark of the Materialprüfungsanstalt[16] may be owned and carried solely for the purpose of defense against animals. Such sprays are not legally considered as weapons. Sprays that do not bear this test mark are classified as prohibited weapons. It is nevertheless strictly prohibited to carry pepper spray at (or on the way to and from) demonstrations - whether it bears a test mark or not.

In Hong Kong. pepper spray is classified as "arms" under HK Laws. Chap 238 FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION ORDINANCE. Without a valid license from the Hong Kong Police Force, it is a crime and can result a fine of $100,000 and to imprisonment for 14 years.

In Israel, OC and CS spray cans may be purchased by any member of the public without restriction and carried in public. ]

In Italy OC it is considered a self-defense weapon and it is legal ...(but) Spray made with CS is illegal.[citation needed]

In Latvia pepper spray is classified as a self-defense weapon, and it is available to anyone over 16. Anyone over 18 can buy gas pistol loaded with pepper or tear gas cartridges for self defense.

In both Belgium and Netherlands it is classified as a prohibited weapon, and it is illegal for anyone other than police officers

In Norway real pepper spray is only used by the police.

In Poland pepper spray is not classified as a weapon, so it is available to anyone over 18.

In Russia pepper spray is a fully legal self-defense weapon and can be bought without license by any person over the age of 18 ... Carrying it at demonstrations is prohibited by law.

In South Africa it is not a licensed product and is freely available as an over the counter security product.

In Spain approved pepper spray made with 5% CS is available to anyone over 18.[citation needed]

In the United Kingdom, "Any weapon of whatever description designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid, gas or other thing" is classed as a section 5 firearm (Firearms Act 1968). ...legal for police officers, recent debates have arisen whether such a weapon should be legal for civilians as means of defensive purposes only. At present a number of legal alternative dye sprays are sold in the UK which have the effect of temporarily blinding the attacker but do not constitute noxious substances and so do not contravene this act.[citation needed]

Laws on Pepper Spray in the United States of America differ between states.

Washington, D.C., possession of pepper spray must be registered with the DC Metropolitan Police.
Massachusetts, pepper spray can only be sold to holders of firearm identification cards.[18]
Wisconsin, pepper spray is limited to containers of 15-60 grams of 10% active ingredient without dyes or CN/CS.[citation needed]
Michigan, pepper spray is legal if it has less than 2% of the active ingredient, this decreases the length of the effects but not the SHU. Sprays containing a mixture of CN/CS are also banned. Otherwise pepper spray is an over the counter purchase.[citation needed]
In many (but not all) other states, pepper spray can be purchased at various stores and carried legally by anyone over 18.

 

[2020hindsight]

ps they call it "bear spray" in Canada

 

[professor_frink]

prof, ok my assumption was that they used capsicum spray and that it hit him in the face. (where does it say it didn't lol? )

That's a good point

As it reads, (and as I initially took it to mean - during quick skim of ABC "just-in" during lunch hour),
"they used capsicum spray before shooting the man",
I thought capsicum spray was used (successfully), then they shot him. But I concede there is an assumption in there.

But I'll happily stand corrected on that IF it turns out that they were NOT able to mace him in the face for some reason (would be a first surely).

My guess is that you're not suggesting that OC spray (pepper spray) doesn't temporarily blind you once you are hit. (?)
i.e. that you'd agree that it forces you to close your eyes (?).

Correct, I'm not suggesting that at all. If they shot him, either they couldn't get close enough to get a good hit on him with the spray and were still in danger, or it didn't have the desired effect if they did get him. Or the coppers were trigger happy maniacs. All of which are wild assumptions based on a very short article. Will have to wait to find out the full story at a later date I guess

 

[2020hindsight]

The story (sorta) unfolds - the Qld Police Minister doesn't want tasers "rolled out" - except ... not sure I believe 100% of what I read in these matters (especially reportedly said by police , and ExtraSPecially said by pollies )

I agree with the bottom line of what she's saying (re tasers)
.. although the detail is getting real mirky / confused.

Personally, I'd like her to confirm whether or not (as she infers) a man blinded with OC spray was then shot.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/10/26/2070886.htm
Taser wouldn't have helped in Gatton incident: Spence
Posted 3 hours 59 minutes ago

Police Minister Judy Spence says tasers would not have helped police dealing with a domestic dispute in Gatton, west of Brisbane, on Wednesday night.

Police say they used capsicum spray before shooting the man, who was throwing knives at them.

The Opposition says a trial of tasers should end and the stun guns rolled out across the state.

But Ms Spence says the weapon would not have helped.

"Police officers tell me that if someone is coming at you with a knife then you're not going to necessarily use the taser option, you're more likely to use the Glock [gun] in the situation," she said.

"There will be a review into this situation, but at this point in time that is what I am being informed."

 

[2020hindsight]

this thread has always had two themes
a) the use of force to stop someone talking at a political meeting
b) the use of tasers by police
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=325084
man killed by canadian mounties
"they always get their man !"
Taser death at Vancouver airport

Caution: This video involves the Tasering death of a human being. If the content is likely to bother you, don't watch.

Paul Pritchard, the bystander who vidoetaped the minutes leading up to the Tasering and eventual death of Robert Dziekanski by RCMP officers at Vancouver airport last month finally has his footage back and released it.

To my mind there is no question that the death of Robert Dziekanski would never have happened if someone had taken the time to do allow this man to speak to an interpreter or let him use their cellphone to reach his mother.

The RCMP story about the events keeps changing from "he was drunk and out of control"(according to the autopsy, he had no alcohol at all in his system. Nor were there drugs), to "he resisted the police" to "the footage doesn't tell the entire story". It certainly tells more than the police bothered to find out before they, within 25 seconds of arriving on the scene, Tasered him.

I think the video speaks very clearly about whether the police acted correctly and with appropriate force or went in half-cocked, Tasered an man who was agitated (twice within a few second and while the man was down), and caused him to lapse into a coma by kneeling on his neck and head (as witnesses and the video show).

Judge for yourself

I am not inviting comment. You are free to decide for yourself.

Background...

Mr. Dziekanski arrived on a flight from Poland to Canada, as a new immigrant. His mother was at the airport to meet him and told him to wait for her at Baggage Claim. However, she was told that she was not allowed into the Baggage Claim area.

She asked if someone would locate her son. According to reports, she was told that he never arrived and after waiting several hours for him, she returned home.

Meanwhile, Mr. Dziekanski had arrived and wandered about in the secure area for approximately 10 hours. During that time, he had no access to food and no one bothered to help him. He spoke no English.

Eventually, he became agitated and began to attract attention of bystanders. Several tried to help him and tried to find someone to find a translator, unfortunately, thinking that he spoke Russian.

As he grew more agitated, security appeared unable or unwilling to assist him and the RCMP were eventually called. As they arrive, one of the officers, without knowing what the situation was, asks "Can I Taser him?". Within 25 seconds of their arrival he was Tasered twice, the second time while on the ground, and the RCMP jump him. Witnesses said and the video shows (unfortunately not as clearly on YouTube, one officer kneeling on his neck and head.

Within a few seconds he lapsed into a coma and within a minute was dead.

None of the officers, who are trained in CPR, bothered to attempt to resuscitate him. It took something like 12 minutes for emergency personnel to be called and arrive on the scene.

The RCMP claimed he was drunk. He had no access to alcohol in the 10 hours he was within the secure area and toxicology results proved he had no drugs or alcohol in his system. (less)
Added: November 14, 2007

 

[2020hindsight]

this thread has always had two themes
a) the use of force to stop someone talking at a political meeting
b) the use of tasers by police
http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=325084
man killed by canadian mounties
"they always get their man !"
Taser death at Vancouver airport

you would have to conclude that the "Royal" Canadian Mounted Police are a collective bunch of liars on this occasion

 

[zenny]

Read "The Good Soldier Å vejk and His Fortunes in the World War" , by Jarslav Hasek.

Although a work of fiction it displays how with single minded dedication, a low IQ and a capacity to soak up military and police maltreatment, one man was able to bring the Austro-Hungarian empire to its knees. Svejk appears to possess similar personal attributes to the taser turkey.

And he didn't need Andy Warhol's five minutes of fame on the tube.

Garpal

"Å vejk represents
one of the most unique and successful
survival strategies ever conceived by man."

To learn about "Å¡vejking" [sh-vake-ing] - visit SvejkCentral-dot-com.

The more you know the more you'll appreciate the difference between the currently prevalent translation you've read and the new translation, The Fateful Adventures of the Good Soldier Å vejk During the World War at zenny-dot-com