Tasered for asking John Kerry questions

[Garpal Gumnut]

spot on explod !

in exactly the same way that RAMSI have been so effective in the Solomons - disarming people whilst not carrying weaons themselves .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Islands

the US police / authorities / mentality could never have come close to achieving what we've done in a million years of bashing / tasering / weaponry etc

I don't agree with you.

Garpal

 

[wayneL]

Here's another one. A woman was tased when already on the ground and restrained, (early part of video).



Opinion of whether police actions were justified or not, is likely to be divided on ideological lines again, but the use of the taser was clearly over the top to be used on a woman already on the ground.

 

[drmb]

How about
"that people like the student at Florida and also Special Minister of State Gary Nairn's chief of staff, Peter Phelps, be tasered when they are difficult at a political meeting. "

Not sure if you have seen the full story 20/20, but you seem to keep misunderstanding. Phelps was not in the same league as the SB in question.

Disarrray sums up nicely - 1. student gets up and craps on, annoying everyone
2. security asks said student to please stfu
3. student gets agitated, raises voice several octaves, begins to rant. loss of emotional control becomes evident.
4. discussion moderators cut microphone.
5. security moves in and asks student to please leave.
6. student arcs up, becomes highly irrational, pushes security, starts ranting, resists attempts made by moderators to peacefully remove him from the scene.
7. student gets taken down by security for causing a ruckus. continues to struggle.
8. student, in a highly agitated state and having lost control of his reason continues to struggle, despite repeated warnings not to do so.
9. student is tasered to end the confrontation.

How is Phelps actions anything like the above? I have worked in the US, if you get to 6, 7, or 8 above you are in serious danger of having strong action taken against you.

 

[wayneL]

Not sure if you have seen the full story 220/20, but you seem to keep misunderstanding. Phelps was not in the same league as the SB in question.

Disarrray sums up nicely - 1. student gets up and craps on, annoying everyone
2. security asks said student to please stfu
3. student gets agitated, raises voice several octaves, begins to rant. loss of emotional control becomes evident.
4. discussion moderators cut microphone.
5. security moves in and asks student to please leave.
6. student arcs up, becomes highly irrational, pushes security, starts ranting, resists attempts made by moderators to peacefully remove him from the scene.
7. student gets taken down by security for causing a ruckus. continues to struggle.
8. student, in a highly agitated state and having lost control of his reason continues to struggle, despite repeated warnings not to do so.
9. student is tasered to end the confrontation.

How is Phelps actions anything like the above? I have worked in the US, if you get to 6, 7, or 8 above you are in serious danger of getting strong action taken against you.

But 4 policemen/women, one of whom would be at least 120kg couldn't do that without a taser when they already had him on the ground? That's the issue here, was the taser appropriate in the circumstances?

What would they have done before tasers? They would have cuffed him, picked him up bodily, and frogmarched him out without any risk to themselves. That is the point, the officers were at no risk when the taser was used.

 

[Sean K]

What would they have done before tasers? They would have cuffed him, picked him up bodily, and frogmarched him out without any risk to themselves. That is the point, the officers were at no risk when the taser was used.

Just to throw up another possibility...

In the past, perhaps fisticuffs were used more liberally to subdue defaulters? I imagine that before television, and mobile phone cams etc, fists were quite a source of control for the constabulary. Unfortunately now (or fortunately depending on what side of the political scale you stand on) blood scattered on the screen is not good PR. Right to the TOP!

So, is the tazar, or pepper spray, or CS gas, etc, worse than a broken jaw, or eye socket, pre TV?

Maybe I'm overestimating media influence on policing practices...

 

[wayneL]

Just to throw up another possibility...

In the past, perhaps fisticuffs were used more liberally to subdue defaulters? I imagine that before television, and mobile phone cams etc, fists were quite a source of control for the constabulary. Unfortunately now (or fortunately depending on what side of the political scale you stand on) blood scattered on the screen is not good PR. Right to the TOP!

So, is the tazar, or pepper spray, or CS gas, etc, worse than a broken jaw, or eye socket, pre TV?

Maybe I'm overestimating media influence on policing practices...

Well, I can only go by by families experiences there. The truly bad guys got roughed up for sure, but your average Joe who got a bit out of control, would be restrained with grappling techniques. (assuming no weapons are involved, then all bets are off)

Broken heads would result in an uproar.

The coppers in the UK do quite fine with a truncheon and handcuffs in most instances.

There was no reason this guy should have ended up with more than a couple of bruises and scrapes, sans the taser. They had him. A simple wrist lock would have had him like a puppy dog.

FWIW here is a justified usage:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=5zQ0_d-BFM4

Copper was by himself and having difficulty controlling the guy. The situation was becoming potentially dangerous. Had he been able to cuff him there would never have been a need for the taser.

Quite different.

 

[Sean K]

A simple wrist lock would have had him like a puppy dog.

Yep, absolutely. I've had some minimal training in controlling people through wrist manipuation (Taekwondo) and I have to say, it works a treat. Surely these police officers should be trained in those techniques. Perhaps they've gone away from that, for the more standoffish approach so they are not in a position to be harmed themselves. ie, stand back and shoot the person... Personally, I think if you're in a position where you have to touch, or be touched, by an offender, you're too close. Perhaps my military background is clouding my perception. I'd prefer to be able to control someone from 300m away....

 

[drmb]

.... assuming no weapons are involved, then all bets are off

wayneL - I don't think you have ever been in the US have you? Or if you have you have never noticed (as I mentioned in a previous post) that tasers, pepper spray, etc are readily available to anyone over the counter in the US. You can pick up a variety of weaponry at the shopping plazas, same small kiosks who will sell you cigarettes, lighters etc. In Colorado where I worked for a little while, K-mart, Target, etc all had HUGE weapons sections, including boxes and boxes of ammo, small arms, weapons, some of which did not need a cooling off period, eg single shot shotguns, single shot 22 rifles, and any air rifle or air pistol. You don't need a licence to own small calibre weapons, slingshots, crossbows, knives, pepper spray and your very own taser, at least not in many states. The US Constitution allows people to bear arms! The officers' training would tell them to take no chances, how can they possible know if some one is armed? Your idea of a quick smack on the head with a truncheon would leave more lasting harm than a stun taser. IMO - you cannot apply the rules of your idealist view of the world's best peacemaking practices in this circumstance. And if you feel safe now that RAMSI is "in control" in the Solomon’s, please feel free to walk around there. But if you pack a sad in the US like the SB then expect to get tasered!

 

[2020hindsight]

1. 20/20 - I don't think you have ever been in the US have you?
2. Or if you have you have never noticed (as I mentioneed in a previous post) that tasers, pepper spray, etc are readily avaialble to anyone over the counter in the US. You can pick up a variety of weaponry at the shopping plazas, same small kiosks who will seel you cigarettes, lighters etc. In Colorada where I worked for a little while, K-mart, Target, etc all had HUGE weapons sections, including boxes and boxes of ammo, small arms, weapns, some of which did not need a cooling ooff period, eg single shot shotguns, single shot 22 rifles, and any air rifle or pistol. You don't need a licence to own small calibre weapns, sligshots, crossbows, knives, pepper spray and your very own taser, at least not in many states.
3. The US Consititution allows people to bear arms! The officers training would tell them to take no chances, how can they possible know if some one is armed
4. Your idea of a quick smack on the head with a trunceon would leave more lasting harm than a stun taser.
5. IMO - you cannot apply the rules of your idealist view of the world's best peacemaking practices in this circumstance. And if you feel safe now that RAMSI is "in control" in the Solomons, please feel free to walk around there.
6. But if you pack a sad in the US like the SB then expect to get tasered!

1. drmb - sure I've been there , many times - including conferences in Texas etc - worked with many Americans for a couple of years -

BUT I don't think YOU've ever watched Fahrenheit 9/11. lol - watch it. Hopefully that is what "Americans of the future" are thinking. ( or would you prefer the America of the future to be George Bush's style of America).

2. Sure I noticed you said that weapons etc are available over the counter.
I bought shanghais for the kids in a store like Woolworths - right beside the hair shampoo or some such !! , and the last thing we did as a family before catching a flight home from San Fran was to go down to the beach and shoot shanghai shots at the rocks at sunset (cheaper than going to Macdonalds). Sure I know it's legal over there.

3. they can bear arms - we can't -
they should be more like us - we shouldn't be more like them

btw as I mentioned elsewhere - I used to take the pay to an Army base - I was a nasho officer - was given a pistol and bullets in case of violent holdup. It would be a security breach to tell yuo if I ever put the bullets in the bludy thing.

4. my idea is not a trucheon to the head. My idea is to encourage a discussion - and then let Kerry answer as he was just about to do.

5. peacemakers, RAMSI etc - I was agreeing with explod - but no probs - lemme explain - these are the ways to win hearts and minds - NOT with rifles - and bombs. USA will NEVER win hearts and minds with bombs... period. And , whether the yanks admit it or not - our RAMSI police in Solomons, and our soldiers in Timor who used massive restraint - were 3000% more effective than the USA would have been.

6. pack a sad?? like this SOB?? deserves taser?? -

summary drmb is as follows:-
Your summary was based on disarrays summary.
Your summary applies to a police state
Mine applies to a healthy democracy.

btw - I'll post some observations "under separate post"

 

[2020hindsight]

summary of summaries :-
4. why did the recess bell ring 5 minutes early, and
5. ........what's happened to Smithy??" [/B]

If you watch the first youtube (post #1 by Brad) and also the first of Kim’s videos – you can dig out the following observations…..
University of Florida student Tasered at Kerry forum
and Kims first link ... http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=657_1190085332

1. student goes to forum for a question and answer session - he holds the microphone, implying he has been given the floor – whilstever he has the microhone -
2. behind him there are two uniformed police plus a man in suit (presumably NOT Steve Orlando since Orlando says “he apparently asked several questions – implying he wasn’t sure and/or wasn’t there). They are packed around the back of this guy (why?)
3. asks multiple questions including why didn’t JK contest the 2004 presidential election, which he lost to President Bush, and why there had been no moves to impeach Mr Bush
4. the first youtube attached to SMH article starts with him finishing that question with
“(why) didn’t you impeach Bush right?”
5. (07s in the timeline – see photo)– AT THAT VERY TRIGGER, (mention of Bush) all three (the two police plus the bloke behind them) look to their left – this fellow behind seems to be close to a decision
6. he continues, unaware that using the name Bush again will get him into deep trouble
“also… were you a member of stolen groved(?) college as Bush ?”
7. (10s in the timeline – see photo)– AT THAT VERY TRIGGER AGAIN, (second mention of Bush) policewoman looks to her left again – so does the bloke behind
8. (10s in the timeline – see third photo. SW)– the bloke behind indicates by hand signal across his own throat that the student is to be silenced.
9. this bloke in suit has decided he’s “not allowed to say these things”. He steps back to be out of the action.
10. “……were you in the same secret society ?”
11. he turns to face the police behind him - plus a student (friend?) who is holding a video camera – he turns voluntarily to police – reasons for his turning voluntarily unknown
12. (14s in the timeline – see photos) Police move forward. CONCURRENTLY WITH that Kerry is calmly saying - “OK that’s all right - let me answer those questions”. Kerry making it perfectly clear he had no problem with that.
13. “excuse me are you arresting me”
“wo wo wo wo is anybody watching this”

men in background are heard to say despairingly '' oh noooo"

the rest is history....

14. ok - they lead him to the door
15. everyone seems to be really surprised , many ask "what did he do !!??"
16. he tries to break free instead of going through the door
17. they get him down to cuff him
18. Kerry is heard to say "hey officers... can we.....hey folks .... hey folks... I think if everybody just .... calms down.."
19. he calls out “don’t taser me”
20. police response ? ....... TASER!!
21. girls scream "why are you doing that !!"
22. police finish cuffing, drag him out - march out as if rear guard action for a 5 man SAS team evacuating a CONTACT.



SUMMARY and MISC COMMENTS:-
so you’d have to agree with SMH Summary :- “A University of Florida student was Tasered and arrested when he tried to speak at a forum with US Senator John Kerry during a question and answer session” – but you could add

“the decision to evict him was almost made when he mentioned Bush’s name at the 07s mark – then sealed at the 10s mark”

question... are the microphones are so heavy it takes three of them to carry it from one questioner to the next?

"He apparently asked several questions - he went on for quite a while - then he was asked to stop," university spokesman Steve Orlando said.
He "apparently" wasn't there. Why is it that the Spokeperson always has the luxury of claiming - if later found to be wrong - that he was misinformed...
- maybe that should read :-
"He apparently ?? [ALLEGEDLY] asked several questions - he went on for quite a while - then he was [ALLEGEDLY] asked to stop," university spokesman Steve Orlando said.


HERE's THE REAL SUMMARY - TOLD AS A PARABLE !!

George Bush visits Bourke school whilst touring Western NSW..
"OK children" says the teacher - "aren't we lucky to have President Bush here with us today well, are there any little questions you'd like to ASK President Bush?"

pregnant pause, Smithy's hand shoots up.

"Yes Smithy?"

"Mr Bush" says young Smithy, "I've got 3 questions! - 1. why did you invade iraq, 2. what happened to the weapons of mass detruction, and 3. why did you treat the prisoners so bad ?" -

Dubya looks uneasy, but fortunately the bell rings for recess. "ok says the teacher - recess!"

Returning after 20 mins, the teacher again invites questions. "Yes Thommo?"

"Mr Bush" says young Thommo, "I've got 5 questions! - 1. why did you invade iraq, 2. what happened to the weapons of mass detruction, and 3. why did you treat the prisoners so bad - ........4. why did the recess bell ring 5 minutes early, and
5. ........what's happened to Smithy??"

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

wayneL - I don't think you have ever been in the US have you? Or if you have you have never noticed (as I mentioned in a previous post) that tasers, pepper spray, etc are readily available to anyone over the counter in the US. You can pick up a variety of weaponry at the shopping plazas, same small kiosks who will sell you cigarettes, lighters etc. In Colorado where I worked for a little while, K-mart, Target, etc all had HUGE weapons sections, including boxes and boxes of ammo, small arms, weapons, some of which did not need a cooling off period, eg single shot shotguns, single shot 22 rifles, and any air rifle or air pistol. You don't need a licence to own small calibre weapons, slingshots, crossbows, knives, pepper spray and your very own taser, at least not in many states. The US Constitution allows people to bear arms! The officers' training would tell them to take no chances, how can they possible know if some one is armed? Your idea of a quick smack on the head with a truncheon would leave more lasting harm than a stun taser. IMO - you cannot apply the rules of your idealist view of the world's best peacemaking practices in this circumstance. And if you feel safe now that RAMSI is "in control" in the Solomon’s, please feel free to walk around there. But if you pack a sad in the US like the SB then expect to get tasered!

Dear drmb,

I couldn't agree more.

Garpal

 

[2020hindsight]

8. (10s in the timeline – see third photo. SW)– the bloke behind indicates by hand signal across his own throat that the student is to be silenced.
9. this bloke in suit has decided he’s “not allowed to say these things”. He steps back to be out of the action.
10. “……were you in the same secret society ?”

10A. ??? SMH article.... "He had used his allotted time. His microphone was cut off then he became upset."

11. he turns to face the police behind him - plus a student (friend?) who is holding a video camera – he turns voluntarily to police – reasons for his turning voluntarily unknown
12. (14s in the timeline – see photos) Police move forward. CONCURRENTLY WITH that Kerry is calmly saying - “OK that’s all right - let me answer those questions”. Kerry making it perfectly clear he had no problem with that.

See , their story doesn't ring true.
They made the decision to evict him behind his back .
they cannot pretend otherwise.
It was a complete surprise to him as it was to Kerry, who was starting to quietly answer his question.

I contend that it was not the case that "He became upset when microphone was turned off - hence (police moved in)" - he was escorted etc. I contend that's a load of bureacratic heavy handed bull**** that it clearly an attempt to rewrite history on their part.

SMH :- "While as many as four police officers tried to remove Meyer from the forum, he yelled for help and asked "What did I do?"

I'd also ask "What did he do???
PS anyone who doesn't know or doesn't respect or doesn't love the rules of a TRUE democracy needn't bother criticising - it's probably going over your head anyway.

no doubt the supporters of heavy handed US reactionary taser-wielding cops and/or security guards will say it's great stuff - - Down with people asking questions of politicians!! BRING ON THE BUREAUCRATIC BIFF!!! sheesh !!!

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

10A. ??? SMH article.... "He had used his allotted time. His microphone was cut off then he became upset."



See their story doesn't ring true.
They made the decision to evict him behind his back .
they cannot pretend otherwise.
It was a complete surprise to him as it was to Kerry whao was starting to quietly answer his question.

I contend that it was not the case that "He became upset when microphone was turned off - hence police moved in" - he was escorted". I contend that's a load of bureacratic heavy handed bull**** that it clearly a attempt to rewrite history on their part.




SMH :- "While as many as four police officers tried to remove Meyer from the forum, he yelled for help and asked "What did I do?"

I'd also ask "What did he do???
PS anyone who doesn't know or doesn't respect or doesn't love the rules of a TRUE democracy needn't bother criticising - it's probably going over your head anyway.

no doubt the supporters or heavy handed US reactionary taser-wielding cops and/or security guards will say it's great stuff - - Down with people asking questions of politicians!! BRING ON THE BUREAUCRATIC BIFF!!! sheesh !!!

Dear 2020,

I don't agree with you.

Garpal

 

[2020hindsight]

Dear drmb,
I couldn't agree more.
Garpal

hey drmb - you sure you know who has and hasn't been to USA lol?
this is getting confusing .

Garpal - I couldn't agree more.

PS . someone hasn't been to the USA - or if they have they haven't bothered to open their bludy eyes on what's happening there (and on youtubes like this)

 

[2020hindsight]

see here's another untruth or spin-doctored attempt at rewriting history of this incident ...

"He apparently asked several questions - he went on for quite a while - then he was asked to stop," university spokesman Steve Orlando said.

truth appears to be that he had finished asking his questions, and was about to leave the microphone.

anyone think otherwise? that we wasn't finished asking questions?

so all these statements that he wouldn't shut up (stfu whatever) are just wrong. KERRY WAS ABOUT TO ANSWER HIS QUESTIONS for chrissake.!!! That's what the youtube shows, simple as that !!

He was escorted out for asking questions about Bush - simple as that .

 

[2020hindsight]

final quick comment for now
that man behind that camera ( Brad's youtube) was working for the authorities.

 

[cuttlefish]

truth appears to be that he had finished asking his questions, and was about to leave the microphone.

anyone think otherwise? that we wasn't finished asking questions?

yeah I agree - when the mike got cut off he made a small comment about being cut off and seemed about to walk away. The police woman grabbed him for no reason that I can see. It would be interesting to hear what the police woman was saying to him in one of the video's when he said "I'm not done yet, I've got two more questions". I keep looking for some incident that justifies the initial restraint but can't see one.

 

[2020hindsight]

.... The officers' training would tell them to take no chances, how can they possible know if some one is armed? Your idea of a quick smack on the head with a truncheon would leave more lasting harm than a stun taser.

(I've already denied any suggestion that I like truncheons - at least excessive use of etc - it was presumably Garpal maybe?)
but question then is ..
does a hit over the head have a permanent effect on your ability to reason...

They didn't have tasers in my day. But have been hit by a truncheon once on the head, ( no jokes) and about the body, also kicked. Humiliated yes. Denied free speech in public yes. This nutter denied everyone else a go. So he deserved what he got. He 's a baby and should just move on. Garpal

PS good to see some US commentators ( Olbermann - you bludy champion ) can see the wood for the trees....
The Brawny and Manly Obnoxious Bill O Reilly
OLBERMANN CHALLENGES BILL O'REILLY TO GET TASERED *AGAIN*

note that there are in the end 6 cops !! what did I say about crowding out the cameras

 

[2020hindsight]

PS There's a photo back there (last post) where Kerry is smiling , but Hillary Clinton is not..

here's another theory..
that It's out of context. (i.e. that photo on Bill O'Reilly's Fox News.)
It's been taken from a few seconds before ...viz:-

In the first youtube in previous post, you'll hear this student ask..

starts off with the disenfranchisement of voters matter.
then...

2 more questions !!

1. "Why not impeach Bush now!?? ......
before he can invade Iran!
Clinton was impeached !! over what?? - over a blow job!!:eek3:
Why not impeach Bush now over Iraq??"

THAT's when that photo was taken imo .

Incidentally the second question is as follows:-
2. were you a member of Skull and Bones at college withBush?
are you in the same secret society?

Kerry: "that's allright - lemme answer that"- (concurrent with arrest as already noted).

That adds up to two questions yes?
( Like (doh) he'd finished asking questions yes?)

Ahh you gotta love US politics lol.

 

[wayneL]

wayneL - I don't think you have ever been in the US have you? Or if you have you have never noticed (as I mentioned in a previous post) that tasers, pepper spray, etc are readily available to anyone over the counter in the US. You can pick up a variety of weaponry at the shopping plazas, same small kiosks who will sell you cigarettes, lighters etc. In Colorado where I worked for a little while, K-mart, Target, etc all had HUGE weapons sections, including boxes and boxes of ammo, small arms, weapons, some of which did not need a cooling off period, eg single shot shotguns, single shot 22 rifles, and any air rifle or air pistol. You don't need a licence to own small calibre weapons, slingshots, crossbows, knives, pepper spray and your very own taser, at least not in many states. The US Constitution allows people to bear arms! The officers' training would tell them to take no chances, how can they possible know if some one is armed? Your idea of a quick smack on the head with a truncheon would leave more lasting harm than a stun taser. IMO - you cannot apply the rules of your idealist view of the world's best peacemaking practices in this circumstance. And if you feel safe now that RAMSI is "in control" in the Solomon’s, please feel free to walk around there. But if you pack a sad in the US like the SB then expect to get tasered!

I come from the US!!!!!!!!!