Why Religion?

[Sith1s]

Mate I've read your above posts.

Many years ago I was travelling through India and as the servants were tired from pushing the car, stopped beside a holy man's cave.

As they prepared the tent and meal, I asked him,

What is the secret of life?

And he said Spaghetti.

So it must be true.

gg

Then that must be it!

And to think the so called global warming problem could be solved by simply increasing the number of pirates around the world. I even have a graph so it must be true! : (going incredibly off topic)

Perhaps i should be posting in your climate change weather thread?

 

[AlterEgo]

You say 'faith', but that's pretty vague. What is it, and why?

Faith is believing something that has not been proved. ie. assuming something is true, even if there is no evidence to support it - which can be a very dangerous thing.

 

[AlterEgo]

If you dont have 'faith' you dont have much...
Faith equals belief in many things.....even in yourself..

But what if your belief is wrong? If there is no proof, then your assumption is most likely to be wrong.

Do you always need proof for everything you believe?

How can you believe something without proof??!! I find that absolutely incredible!! And why would you believe something that has no proof? Just believing something doesn't make it true. Just imagine what sort of state our justice system would be in if it relied on 'belief' rather than 'proof' for determining guilt!

 

[MS+Tradesim]

But what if your belief is wrong? If there is no proof, then your assumption is most likely to be wrong.

It does not follow from a lack of proof (or rather evidence) supporting an assumption to the conclusion that the assumption is wrong. At worst, one can rationally doubt. At best, one could believe tentatively and still be rational.

How can you believe something without proof??!! I find that absolutely incredible!! And why would you believe something that has no proof?

Humans do it every day. There is no proof the sun will rise tomorrow. Just the repeated past making it statistically likely that it will. There is no proof that on the assumption of a purely material universe (no transcendant entities) that our belief forming faculties are geared at arriving at truth. Yet every day humans make decisions and inferences on the belief that they are acting on what is true and that they are coming to true conclusions.

Just believing something doesn't make it true.

True. As with its reverse. Just disbelieving something does not make it untrue.

Just imagine what sort of state our justice system would be in if it relied on 'belief' rather than 'proof' for determining guilt!

How many cases are decided on the basis of testimony when forensic evidence is lacking or inconclusive? Testimony is the belief of the witness. It is not forensic evidence. Part of the process is determining whether a witness's testimony (beliefs about a situation) is credible. The decision maker (judge or jury) then need to form beliefs about what happened, based on other people's beliefs.

 

[AlterEgo]

True. As with its reverse. Just disbelieving something does not make it untrue.

Of course not. I agree with you.

How many cases are decided on the basis of testimony when forensic evidence is lacking or inconclusive? Testimony is the belief of the witness. It is not forensic evidence. Part of the process is determining whether a witness's testimony (beliefs about a situation) is credible. The decision maker (judge or jury) then need to form beliefs about what happened, based on other people's beliefs.

True, "beyond reasonable doubt". Reasonable being the operative word.

If someone came before court today making similar claims to what is in the bible, ie, that he is the son of god and has risen from the dead, etc, would you regard his testimony as credible? If not, then how could you regard some document written 1000's of years ago as any more credible than him? Why don’t people subject the bible to the same level of scrutiny as they would subject this person to?

 

[MS+Tradesim]

True, "beyond reasonable doubt". Reasonable being the operative word.

"Beyond reasonable doubt" is a subjective concept based on the belief that a human with normally functioning cognitive abilities will come to conclude a given thing. This is based on the belief that normal cognitive function is geared towards discovering truth. It's hopelessly circular at its core. But we rely on it because it's the best we have.

Why don’t people subject the bible to the same level of scrutiny as they would subject this person to?

Some of us have. I have my beliefs based on research and experience. But I'm not going to enter a protracted debate here about philosophy of religion, epistemology, historiography and textual criticism. I'm not here to argue for any religious position. My more modest goal is to offer some balance in a topic which is more often marked by dogmatism on both sides.

 

[RamonR]

Then that must be it!

And to think the so called global warming problem could be solved by simply increasing the number of pirates around the world. I even have a graph so it must be true! : (going incredibly off topic)

Perhaps i should be posting in your climate change weather thread?

I disagree with this this theory.
Pirate attacks have increased dramatically off late but I see no signs of climate cooling

 

[Temjin]

Self-esteem and religion DO NOT MIX.

You cannot claim yourself to have a high self-esteem and be extremely faithful to a religion at the same time, period.

This is why objectivism flourish amoung the younger population who rejects religion as a form of value/beliefs.

To sacrifice for others selflessly and to reject greed as being immoral would automatically mean all the economic achievements gained through the application of captialism since the industrial ages are done through "immoral" acts, and therefore, should be rejected.

It's funny how some people who embrace religion are adhered to their set of virtue codes but do not see the positive side of those "immoral" thinking.

Ahhh, I'm married with a modified Objectivism view now.

 

[Sith1s]

I disagree with this this theory.
Pirate attacks have increased dramatically off late but I see no signs of climate cooling

Since you've brought this up, try this link.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,23583376-7583,00.html

Proof that we may actually be heading towards global cooling! :


On topic though - if you look hard enough people will always have a way to provide some kind of proof or evidence for their beliefs...

 

[jonojpsg]

If someone came before court today making similar claims to what is in the bible, ie, that he is the son of god and has risen from the dead, etc, would you regard his testimony as credible? If not, then how could you regard some document written 1000's of years ago as any more credible than him? Why don’t people subject the bible to the same level of scrutiny as they would subject this person to?

Jesus did not make that claim without backing it up though - at the time there were plenty of eyewitnesses to his miracles which he referred to when claiming that he was the son of God. This is the whole basis for the Bible, the fact that there were eyewitness accounts of what happened, from a range of sources; and also that completely separate (both in time (over 1000 years!!!) and space) documents all consistently refer to Jesus and his miracles. Take that to any court today and ask the judge to rule on it

 

[derty]

Jesus did not make that claim without backing it up though - at the time there were plenty of eyewitnesses to his miracles which he referred to when claiming that he was the son of God. This is the whole basis for the Bible, the fact that there were eyewitness accounts of what happened, from a range of sources; and also that completely separate (both in time (over 1000 years!!!) and space) documents all consistently refer to Jesus and his miracles. Take that to any court today and ask the judge to rule on it

You cannot use a document that proposes the existence of something as the proof of it's existence. The witnesses of Jesus's miracles are contained in the bible.

Can you provide some links to these completely separate documents that corroborate these miracles?

Also the benefit of doubt may be good enough for the courtroom, but science demands much more, it demands the elimination of doubt.

 

[MS+Tradesim]

You cannot use a document that proposes the existence of something as the proof of it's existence.

Really? That would come as a surprise to any classical historian.

Also the benefit of doubt may be good enough for the courtroom, but science demands much more, it demands the elimination of doubt.

There is no homogenous 'science' that demands any such thing. For example, Karl Popper, the very influential philosopher of science, was instrumental in the rise of the idea within science that a theory is never proven. It is either falsified (then modified or discarded), or remains unfalsified and held with a higher degree of confidence.

This view is exemplified by Stephen Hawking, "Any physical theory is always provisional, in the sense that it is only a hypothesis; you can never prove it. No matter how many times the results of experiments agree with some theory, you can never be sure that the next time the result will not contradict the theory. On the other hand, you can disprove a theory by finding even a single observation that disagrees with the predictions of the theory." (A Brief History of Time, p.11)

What is ironic is that many claims purportedly countering religion are held with a religious fervour and continue to be believed even when demonstrably false. I don't think questioning "Why religion?" will go far enough without tacit acknowledgement and exploration of the prior "Why anything?"

 

[darkside]

So Derty , get it out there, are you trying to say that there is no credible scientific or factually reliable evidence for the existence of a god, gods or the supernatural, just a strangle hold of what can only be described as blind faith ?????.
I'm just trying to clarify a point

 

[darkside]

I also see that Benny Hinn, is offering a way out of the financial crisis , by just sending him bucket loads of "happiness" well ok money , he will ensure that your financial woes are taken care of, perhaps if all the storm followers and religious zealots send him truckloads of money all our cares will be swept away. So come on everone PM me your Bank details and i will pass it on to good old Benny, have some blind faith , you know you want to.

 

[Julia]

Why did I survive that horrible car accident (it must have been an act of God)

Usually when this is trotted out, the obvious rejoinder is quoted, i.e.
why did he die in that horrible car accident (it must have been an act of God).
In the one instance, God is a loving being who saves us from evil and in the other he is the opposite.

How many cases are decided on the basis of testimony when forensic evidence is lacking or inconclusive? Testimony is the belief of the witness. It is not forensic evidence. Part of the process is determining whether a witness's testimony (beliefs about a situation) is credible. The decision maker (judge or jury) then need to form beliefs about what happened, based on other people's beliefs.

Are we talking about "beliefs" in court? I don't think so. Witnesses are called upon to describe what they actually saw, i.e. to present facts.
It doesn't go to their "beliefs" at all.

 

[beamstas]

Nothing is going to come of this thread

 

[weird]

Usually when this is trotted out, the obvious rejoinder is quoted, i.e.
why did he die in that horrible car accident (it must have been an act of God).
In the one instance, God is a loving being who saves us from evil and in the other he is the opposite.

Death is a horrible experience for the living, I remember having someone in the hospital that was very close, and the thought of their death felt like my insides had been torn out ... literally.

People deal with this everyday, and this is an incredibly sad experience, we all die, perhaps something scientifically may prevent this in the future but it is not here and now, so we can all assume we will die at some point.

Religion can provide some additional strength to cope with this pain. Anti-depressants and counseling can help here too, do what ever is required to get you through it.

I think, if you are religious, and if you have some fortunate luck (perhaps surviving a near death or gaining a job, etc), then you may attribute this to God whether there was any intervention or not, sometimes he may 'intervene', however the inevitable fate of our existence , is that we are human, **** happens, and we die or some other event occurs if not speaking about death.

I can not speak for other religions, but with Christianity, one wants to be prepared for, and accept our inevitable fate. However I want to add, death is probably one of the one difficult things to talk about, and I feel sad just writing this, as I have experienced some of the pain.

Probably not much will come of this thread, however I think we are all searching, and sometimes someone's writing, clicks or gives one an idea to further research something which might help one in their own journey.

 

[Sean K]

Nothing is going to come of this thread

I am taking notes on why there is religion. The rest is interesting banter.

Maybe you could add something?

 

[billhill]

On an evolutionary perspective religions could serve to enhance survival of both individuals and societies. In fact some studies show that religious people live longer then non religious people on average. possibly due to reduced stress although the real factors are unknown. see linkhttp://www.webmd.com/news/20000809/religious-people-live-longer-than-nonbelievers
In the past religions have been very useful in instilling social structure and stability to human populations. It may be that a societies where strong religious systems developed were better able to survive over time and hence this specific genetic or social wiring of the brain becomes common and predisposes populations to believe in religions.
However i wholly admit that real gods are a possibility and the above hypothesis is wrong.

 

[nunthewiser]

I am taking notes on why there is religion. The rest is interesting banter.

Maybe you could add something?

perhaps its so the masses have something to fight over

intresting link worth checking out the map and the spread


http://www.mapsofwar.com/images/Religion.swf