- Joined
- 27 April 2009
- Posts
- 347
- Reactions
- 0
Everyone worships something, and often tries to riducule the other persons God. Pretending to be different to those "religous" people is really just another way to try to elevate your god/belief over theirs.
What you have with Christianity is the concretizing of the myth of Jesus Christ into a fact, when the story of Jesus Christ and his life is just a vehicle designed to open you up to the transcendent, the truth, god or whatever you want to call it.
Another problem is that myths need to reflect what we know and understand about the world we live in, that obviously includes the science of the day. If they don't do this they lose their relevance. 2000 years ago it was would have been reasonable to assume that some dude lived in the sky and controlled things, we didn't know anything about the sky, the atmosphere or space and what or whom resided there. The idea in the old testament that the earth was only 6000 years old would have been as good a guess as any as we didn't know anything about evolution or dinosaur fossils.
Today we have a much better understanding of these things and thus the old myths have lost there relevance to our lives. The problem I see today is that there is nothing to replace it. We have no new myths to reflect our times and so we lurch from one ideology to the next, ie capitalism, socialism fascism etc.
i have no doubt that there is power in prayer. whether it be through creative visualisation, or the power of some universal force, ie; celestine prophecy. but whatever the source of that power, men have tried to explain it, harness it, sell it, understand it.
Jesus isn't a myth mate, no more than Julius Caesar or Pythagorous. He is the most well documented person from ancient history. You only have to read the Bible to know that there are quite a few scientifically valid perspectives in there, eg the world was round not flat, etc. Not sure why the church jumped on that one, if they actually did.
Jesus isn't a myth mate, no more than Julius Caesar or Pythagorous. He is the most well documented person from ancient history.
...our moral being is evidence of a creator or else where did we get morals from.
Jesus isn't a myth mate, no more than Julius Caesar or Pythagorous. He is the most well documented person from ancient history.
You only have to read the Bible to know that there are quite a few scientifically valid perspectives in there, eg the world was round not flat, etc. Not sure why the church jumped on that one, if they actually did.
Besides which, there are plenty of rational, scientifically literate people around who believe there is a God so not sure how this argument holds up?
The problem I see today is that we are trying to replace it!
BTW kennas, religion is an essential part of our being - God made us so it is a natural process for us to want to know him.
Actually there is next to no evidence that Jesus existed except for the work of fiction called the Bible.
The are parts of our brain which when stimulated give the experience of being in the presence of another being.
So I say we are hardwired to believe in things greater then us.
CS Lewis has some great explanations for it in Mere Christianity along the lines of our moral being is evidence of a creator or else where did we get morals from.
I'll bite .. Josephus, Plutarch- romans... thousands of early manuscripts and fragments indicating a reliable transmission of the source documents. There is evidence there but not many people can be bothered looking.
I agree, there are many other references but people can't be bothered looking. A few more writings of the following people back up the existence of Jesus - Plinius Secundus, Cornelius Tactitus, Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, Lucian, and then theres the Talmud.
Its called epilepsy mate.
gg
I have had a bit of a look about and they seem to be a well trotted out group in this argument. Most of the in-detail discussion I found was in the negative camp, those presenting this group as evidence rarely provided much other than their names. If you could provide something more compelling than just their names it would be appreciated.I agree, there are many other references but people can't be bothered looking. A few more writings of the following people back up the existence of Jesus - Plinius Secundus, Cornelius Tactitus, Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, Lucian, and then theres the Talmud.
Remsburg, in "The Christ" names 42 writers who lived and wrote during the time or within a century after the period when Jesus is said to have existed, and from all their writings only four passages are to be found that might possibly support the historicity of Jesus. And of those four passages, not a single one can stand any critical test at all.
Christians usually offer eight (8) possible
So, let's see how far 'off-base' Christians are this time around:
Cornelius Tacitus(55-130 A.D.)--Ann- als XV. 44.....It was not until the 15th century A.D. that the account of "Christus" (Ooooops.... ain't a proper name!) was 'discovered' by Poggio Bracciolini (the suspected author of "Annals"!) in Tacitus' writings. It was then published by Johannes de Spire of Venice in 1468 A.D. The account was never referred to prior to the 15th century. The account only represents a report by Christians about a "Christus" in about 117-120 A.D. The account refers to Pilate as 'procurator' (a term not in general use until perhaps 50 yrs. later. Instead, Pilate would have been until then known as 'prefect'). The account mentions a "vast multitude" of Christians in 64 A.D. Rome. Hah!! It also mentions "death by fire".
Hah!! The Romans did not execute by burning. The account has Christians persecuted for their faith. Hah!! (They were persecuted for their political aspirations and sedition......Hmmmmmm, that has a familiar ring, even today!). The account has Christians being burned in Nero's gardens. Hah!! Another account by Tacitcus has fire victims being HOUSED in Nero's gardens! Besides, Nero was in Antium, not Rome, during the course of the fire (according to another account by Tacitus!).
The worshippers of the Sun-god Serapis (Osiris) were called 'Christians' then!!
does Tacitus anywhere refer to Christians.... they were utterly insignificant during his life- time! Nowhere in the whole New Testament do Christians even refer to themselves as 'Christians'. Eusebius' fourth ( and Clement of Alexandria's third) Century catalog of extra- biblical references to Jesus do NOT mention Tacitus account at all!! And on and on and on.........[See G.A. Wells, "The Historical Evidence for Jesus", p.16, for more detail].
Lucian of Samosata....His quotation about some "...man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced a new cult..." is too nebulous to be given serious attention or concern. Even the Bible N.T. mentions rebels and other Messiahs who paid with their lives for their political aspirations. No biblical Jesus Christ is found in this snippet either.
Seutonius (77-140 A.D.)--Lives of the Caesars, 26.2.....Mention is made of "...Christ- ians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition." And in Life of Claudius, 25.4, he mentions a "...Chrestus..." being expelled from Rome with his followers in about the year 49 A.D.!! Hey, talk about rewriting history! Actually, Chrestus was a fairly common name among Roman freedmen. It was also the Roman name for the Sun-god Serapis (Osiris----see Tacitus above).
The Roman historian Vopiscus said "Those who worship Serapis are the Chrestians...". Can someone please point out for us where Christians find the 'biblical' Jesus Christ in these snippets!! No eye witnesses, no confor- mation, no matching detail, no evidence, no proof..........Yep, sounds like our X'ian 'Apologists' all over again!
Plinius Secundus, Pliny the Younger (Epistles, X.96)...It's a mystery why anyone would quote this writer as evidence for the biblical Jesus Christ. About the year 113 A.D., he merely mentions his experiences with a cult that calls itself Christians, and who wor- ship a Christ as a god, using sacrificial flesh of their victims. It is an incredible libel to suggest that the gentle Pliny would torture two women in Asia Minor (modern Turkey!) from a large Christian population (?). Insofar as Christ's divinity was not established and canonized until 325 A.D., 'Christians' would NOT then be worshipping him anyhow! First published in the 16th century, it was immed- iately declared spurious.
Thallus...Tsk, tsk, X'ians! You really should check your sources before publishing them here. Looks like someone has been feeding them information from F.F. Bruce or perhaps Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" (Chapter 5). Or do you really expect anyone objectively to take that sort of apologist material seriously? Thallus and his (non-existent) comments about a 'darkness' somehow evidence the existence of the biblical Jesus Christ !! Perhaps, they'd be so good as to elaborate and expound on this so as to provide a convincing argument for your belief in your Jesus Christ. We're all eagerly awaiting to hear how Thallus' 'darkness' can be used as historical extra-biblical evidence for the biblical Jesus Christ.
Phlegon....Hey X'ians, after your offering of Thallus, do you think I'm gonna' waste one minute of my time running this one down.
Letter of Mara Bar-Seraphon (after 73 A.D.!)....Very weak offering ! The quotation "What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king?" is most un-convincing. Jesus Christ was never the king of the Jews. The Bible reveals as much! Besides, are you taking the stance that the Jews 'executed' Jesus Christ? Slippery slope again, Christians!
For example, the assertion that the story of Jesus is a composite or variation of previous Saviours is in the same category as the view that the earth was created in 6 days, 6000 years ago. Both are unsubstantiated opinion not taken seriously by scholars in the relevant fields.
Are you suggesting that Jesus shares no characteristics in common with previous so-called saviours? Here are a few of the main ones among many;
Born on the 25th December
Virgin birth
Birth was accompanied by a star in the east
adorned by 3 kings
Child teacher
Baptized at 30
12 Disciples
Performed miracles
Crucified
Resurrected after 3 days
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?