Why Religion?

[Soft Dough]

Everyone worships something, and often tries to riducule the other persons God. Pretending to be different to those "religous" people is really just another way to try to elevate your god/belief over theirs.

I reserve the right to ridicule people whose religious beliefs result in their consigning me to hell.

I reserve the right to ridicule people whose religious beliefs allow them to be forgiven for their sinful activities by ritualistic means, instead of proper self reflection, improvement and punishment

I reserve the right to ridicule people whose religious beliefs result in persecution of others, even though their views are not ethical

I reserve the right to ridicule people whose religious beliefs stifle progress and consign others to hardship due the power of the minority overruling the needs of the many.

There are many more, but I won't waste my time on some people. I pray that those so entrenched in their religious beliefs and have lost touch with society think for themselves for once, and realise that it is fine to do what you do, but to press your irrational beliefs onto others goes against what religion is meant to stand for.

 

[jonojpsg]

What you have with Christianity is the concretizing of the myth of Jesus Christ into a fact, when the story of Jesus Christ and his life is just a vehicle designed to open you up to the transcendent, the truth, god or whatever you want to call it.

Another problem is that myths need to reflect what we know and understand about the world we live in, that obviously includes the science of the day. If they don't do this they lose their relevance. 2000 years ago it was would have been reasonable to assume that some dude lived in the sky and controlled things, we didn't know anything about the sky, the atmosphere or space and what or whom resided there. The idea in the old testament that the earth was only 6000 years old would have been as good a guess as any as we didn't know anything about evolution or dinosaur fossils.

Today we have a much better understanding of these things and thus the old myths have lost there relevance to our lives. The problem I see today is that there is nothing to replace it. We have no new myths to reflect our times and so we lurch from one ideology to the next, ie capitalism, socialism fascism etc.

Jesus isn't a myth mate, no more than Julius Caesar or Pythagorous. He is the most well documented person from ancient history. You only have to read the Bible to know that there are quite a few scientifically valid perspectives in there, eg the world was round not flat, etc. Not sure why the church jumped on that one, if they actually did.

Besides which, there are plenty of rational, scientifically literate people around who believe there is a God so not sure how this argument holds up?

The problem I see today is that we are trying to replace it!

BTW kennas, religion is an essential part of our being - God made us so it is a natural process for us to want to know him. CS Lewis has some great explanations for it in Mere Christianity along the lines of our moral being is evidence of a creator or else where did we get morals from.

My

 

[sdmartin10]

You can reserve the right to ridicule, but you can't then object to other people pressing their beliefs on to you. That's what your doing.

To disclose my position I am LT Buy (sic) on christianity. I am happy for people to question/ridicule any religion, belief or idea as long as they are open to their own beliefs being called in to question. I find the people who get the angriest about beliefs being forced on them are often the most forceful in wanting to tell other people what they can and can't do.

 

[mastatrada]

i have no doubt that there is power in prayer. whether it be through creative visualisation, or the power of some universal force, ie; celestine prophecy. but whatever the source of that power, men have tried to explain it, harness it, sell it, understand it.

Thats a good point, one of the latest 'life coaching' techniques is the power of positive thought being able to influence and improve your life, so i guess prayer would be a form of this

And there's a good reason why the lord is represented as a shepherd- most of his worshippers are brainless sheep!

 

[Happy]

One of the needs for religion was explained that people could not handle the idea of finite lifespan of human being.
Without having something some people would find hard to find motivation to live life.

Another explanation was (as mentioned) method to explain everything.

As we can clearly see Christians back-peddle some of their statements to incorporate current scientific advances, Muslims on the other hand spearhead it.

I can bet that if Religions were developed now, creators would try to make it immune to future scientific advances, but too late now.

Being able to gather thought and achieve some peace of mind it is not necessary to have religion, all you need is some knowledge how to do it.

 

[derty]

Jesus isn't a myth mate, no more than Julius Caesar or Pythagorous. He is the most well documented person from ancient history. You only have to read the Bible to know that there are quite a few scientifically valid perspectives in there, eg the world was round not flat, etc. Not sure why the church jumped on that one, if they actually did.

I am curious as to what other documented evidence of Jesus exists outside the bible? It is a bit of a circular argument to use the book that proposes his existence as the corroborating proof of his existence.

A link here to the similarities of Jesus's life to that of the Egyptian Horus 3000 years prior: http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5b.htm

 

[bassmanpete]

Jesus isn't a myth mate, no more than Julius Caesar or Pythagorous. He is the most well documented person from ancient history.

Outside of the Bible there is no historical evidence that Jesus ever existed, whereas there are several contemporary accounts regarding the other two.

...our moral being is evidence of a creator or else where did we get morals from.

Lots of people do the right thing because it's the right thing to do - god doesn't come into it.

 

[dhukka]

Jesus isn't a myth mate, no more than Julius Caesar or Pythagorous. He is the most well documented person from ancient history.

Actually there is next to no evidence that Jesus existed except for the work of fiction called the Bible.

You only have to read the Bible to know that there are quite a few scientifically valid perspectives in there, eg the world was round not flat, etc. Not sure why the church jumped on that one, if they actually did.

You only have to read the Bible to know that a lot of its story lines have been lifted from previous so-called saviours of history that came before the fictional Jesus.

Besides which, there are plenty of rational, scientifically literate people around who believe there is a God so not sure how this argument holds up?

I have no problem with believing in God, it just depends how you define what God is. If you are a literate adult with an IQ over 90 and you believe God is some bearded dude who created the world in 7 days 6000 years ago and knows everything we do every minute of the day then you are beyond help.

The problem I see today is that we are trying to replace it!

The only choice is to replace it because it is outdated and irrelevant.

BTW kennas, religion is an essential part of our being - God made us so it is a natural process for us to want to know him.

You know that God made you, how is that? Have you had a chat with him?

 

[MS+Tradesim]

It's amazing.

Raise the topic of religion and otherwise intelligent people resort to dribbling nonsense they heard from someone who heard from someone, or asserting uninformed opinion as fact. Happens on both sides of the divide.

Ironic that those who reject religion, and Christianity in specific, because it's made up or myth will nevertheless appeal to discredited theories and equally vacuous websites as supporting evidence for their disbelief.

For example, the assertion that the story of Jesus is a composite or variation of previous Saviours is in the same category as the view that the earth was created in 6 days, 6000 years ago. Both are unsubstantiated opinion not taken seriously by scholars in the relevant fields.

Try reading historians and scholars at the forefront of the field, not the unresearched and highly speculative blather on the internet that is passed off as fact.

James D.G. Dunn, N.T. Wright, Dominic Crossan, Richard Bauckham et al. Different views and different conclusions and whether or not one comes to agree or disagree with any or some, these are the kinds of researchers one needs to interact with if one is genuinely interested in informed historical research about the birth of Christianity.

 

[sdmartin10]

Actually there is next to no evidence that Jesus existed except for the work of fiction called the Bible.

I'll bite .. Josephus, Plutarch- romans... thousands of early manuscripts and fragments indicating a reliable transmission of the source documents. There is evidence there but not many people can be bothered looking.

 

[Garpal Gumnut]

The are parts of our brain which when stimulated give the experience of being in the presence of another being.

So I say we are hardwired to believe in things greater then us.

Its called epilepsy mate.

gg

 

[Struzball]

CS Lewis has some great explanations for it in Mere Christianity along the lines of our moral being is evidence of a creator or else where did we get morals from.

Our morals are an evolutinary trait, without them we would not have lasted this long to become the homosapiens we are. We'd have killed each other off millions of years ago.

It's so annoying that somebody can ask a question, and state the answer is proof of God, yet if they could just think for themselves for a minute they can come up with something realistic.

(Except for the babelfish)

 

[samuely1]

I'll bite .. Josephus, Plutarch- romans... thousands of early manuscripts and fragments indicating a reliable transmission of the source documents. There is evidence there but not many people can be bothered looking.

I agree, there are many other references but people can't be bothered looking. A few more writings of the following people back up the existence of Jesus - Plinius Secundus, Cornelius Tactitus, Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, Lucian, and then theres the Talmud.

 

[Happy]

I agree, there are many other references but people can't be bothered looking. A few more writings of the following people back up the existence of Jesus - Plinius Secundus, Cornelius Tactitus, Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, Lucian, and then theres the Talmud.

I wander if I write something today, could be used in 2000 years as truth?

 

[RamonR]

Its called epilepsy mate.

gg

results of a quick google search on what I am talking about

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/belief-and-the-brains--god-spot-1641022.html

In my experience epilepsy isn't associated with being highly religious, although it is very common amongst people with schizophrenia

 

[waza1960]

Religion is there for those who need to believe in something which I believe is a large proportion of the population.They feel more at ease having a belief that explains the great unknowns i.e. life death etc.Myself I don't need to believe so I am free of religion but I don't mind if others get by with religion as long as they don't push it onto me

 

[derty]

I agree, there are many other references but people can't be bothered looking. A few more writings of the following people back up the existence of Jesus - Plinius Secundus, Cornelius Tactitus, Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas, Lucian, and then theres the Talmud.

I have had a bit of a look about and they seem to be a well trotted out group in this argument. Most of the in-detail discussion I found was in the negative camp, those presenting this group as evidence rarely provided much other than their names. If you could provide something more compelling than just their names it would be appreciated.

a short discussion of each and their time frames;
http://books.google.com.au/books?id...X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5#PPA109,M1

Pliny's (Plinius Secundus) letter to Trajan, this is very vague and is a discussion of torturing Christians and not a contemporary discussion of Jesus.
http://www.tyrannus.com/pliny_let.html

I'm not sure if this book is for or against or purely objective but his discussion of Pliny's letter on page 28 reinforces it's obscurity as a supporting evidence as to the existence of Jesus ;
http://books.google.com.au/books?id...=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5#PPA28,M1

http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og/cindex/jesusexist1.html :

Remsburg, in "The Christ" names 42 writers who lived and wrote during the time or within a century after the period when Jesus is said to have existed, and from all their writings only four passages are to be found that might possibly support the historicity of Jesus. And of those four passages, not a single one can stand any critical test at all.

Christians usually offer eight (8) possible

So, let's see how far 'off-base' Christians are this time around:

Cornelius Tacitus(55-130 A.D.)--Ann- als XV. 44.....It was not until the 15th century A.D. that the account of "Christus" (Ooooops.... ain't a proper name!) was 'discovered' by Poggio Bracciolini (the suspected author of "Annals"!) in Tacitus' writings. It was then published by Johannes de Spire of Venice in 1468 A.D. The account was never referred to prior to the 15th century. The account only represents a report by Christians about a "Christus" in about 117-120 A.D. The account refers to Pilate as 'procurator' (a term not in general use until perhaps 50 yrs. later. Instead, Pilate would have been until then known as 'prefect'). The account mentions a "vast multitude" of Christians in 64 A.D. Rome. Hah!! It also mentions "death by fire".

Hah!! The Romans did not execute by burning. The account has Christians persecuted for their faith. Hah!! (They were persecuted for their political aspirations and sedition......Hmmmmmm, that has a familiar ring, even today!). The account has Christians being burned in Nero's gardens. Hah!! Another account by Tacitcus has fire victims being HOUSED in Nero's gardens! Besides, Nero was in Antium, not Rome, during the course of the fire (according to another account by Tacitus!).

The worshippers of the Sun-god Serapis (Osiris) were called 'Christians' then!!

does Tacitus anywhere refer to Christians.... they were utterly insignificant during his life- time! Nowhere in the whole New Testament do Christians even refer to themselves as 'Christians'. Eusebius' fourth ( and Clement of Alexandria's third) Century catalog of extra- biblical references to Jesus do NOT mention Tacitus account at all!! And on and on and on.........[See G.A. Wells, "The Historical Evidence for Jesus", p.16, for more detail].

Lucian of Samosata....His quotation about some "...man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced a new cult..." is too nebulous to be given serious attention or concern. Even the Bible N.T. mentions rebels and other Messiahs who paid with their lives for their political aspirations. No biblical Jesus Christ is found in this snippet either.

Seutonius (77-140 A.D.)--Lives of the Caesars, 26.2.....Mention is made of "...Christ- ians, a class of men given to a new and mischievous superstition." And in Life of Claudius, 25.4, he mentions a "...Chrestus..." being expelled from Rome with his followers in about the year 49 A.D.!! Hey, talk about rewriting history! Actually, Chrestus was a fairly common name among Roman freedmen. It was also the Roman name for the Sun-god Serapis (Osiris----see Tacitus above).

The Roman historian Vopiscus said "Those who worship Serapis are the Chrestians...". Can someone please point out for us where Christians find the 'biblical' Jesus Christ in these snippets!! No eye witnesses, no confor- mation, no matching detail, no evidence, no proof..........Yep, sounds like our X'ian 'Apologists' all over again!

Plinius Secundus, Pliny the Younger (Epistles, X.96)...It's a mystery why anyone would quote this writer as evidence for the biblical Jesus Christ. About the year 113 A.D., he merely mentions his experiences with a cult that calls itself Christians, and who wor- ship a Christ as a god, using sacrificial flesh of their victims. It is an incredible libel to suggest that the gentle Pliny would torture two women in Asia Minor (modern Turkey!) from a large Christian population (?). Insofar as Christ's divinity was not established and canonized until 325 A.D., 'Christians' would NOT then be worshipping him anyhow! First published in the 16th century, it was immed- iately declared spurious.

Thallus...Tsk, tsk, X'ians! You really should check your sources before publishing them here. Looks like someone has been feeding them information from F.F. Bruce or perhaps Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict" (Chapter 5). Or do you really expect anyone objectively to take that sort of apologist material seriously? Thallus and his (non-existent) comments about a 'darkness' somehow evidence the existence of the biblical Jesus Christ !! Perhaps, they'd be so good as to elaborate and expound on this so as to provide a convincing argument for your belief in your Jesus Christ. We're all eagerly awaiting to hear how Thallus' 'darkness' can be used as historical extra-biblical evidence for the biblical Jesus Christ.

Phlegon....Hey X'ians, after your offering of Thallus, do you think I'm gonna' waste one minute of my time running this one down.

Letter of Mara Bar-Seraphon (after 73 A.D.!)....Very weak offering ! The quotation "What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king?" is most un-convincing. Jesus Christ was never the king of the Jews. The Bible reveals as much! Besides, are you taking the stance that the Jews 'executed' Jesus Christ? Slippery slope again, Christians!

Sorry for perpetuating the derailment of this thread from the original topic Kennas, but when do these discussions ever stay on topic?

 

[dhukka]

For example, the assertion that the story of Jesus is a composite or variation of previous Saviours is in the same category as the view that the earth was created in 6 days, 6000 years ago. Both are unsubstantiated opinion not taken seriously by scholars in the relevant fields.

Are you suggesting that Jesus shares no characteristics in common with previous so-called saviours? Here are a few of the main ones among many;

Born on the 25th December
Virgin birth
Birth was accompanied by a star in the east
adorned by 3 kings
Child teacher
Baptized at 30
12 Disciples
Performed miracles
Crucified
Resurrected after 3 days

 

[MS+Tradesim]

Are you suggesting that Jesus shares no characteristics in common with previous so-called saviours? Here are a few of the main ones among many;

Born on the 25th December
Virgin birth
Birth was accompanied by a star in the east
adorned by 3 kings
Child teacher
Baptized at 30
12 Disciples
Performed miracles
Crucified
Resurrected after 3 days

I've seen these many times. Most of them derive from the discredited views of Kersey Graves. What modern, reliable scholarly source confirms them?

For the record, I am not interested in arguing about it. I'd rather you apply the same skepticism to "sources" of skeptical objections as you do to the claims of Christianity, or any religion. It's my experience that while followers of religions often (and rightly) get questioned or poo-pooed on their claims, the same level of critical inquiry is not applied to the objections and counter-claims against a religion. The path of least resistance applies. Where a person believes they have found support for their view, they will not apply as critical a level of questioning to that source.

 

[weird]

I'm a practicing Catholic, why religion ? ... for anyone practicing any religion you will get many answers, one for myself that comes to mind is that it centers me, and also helps me see the best in humanity and appreciate nature, and also understand my flaws, and try to better myself.

I only know from my own personal experience of being a Catholic, and if you attend any mass, the homilies have no condemnation towards non-Christians, teaches peace among all religions and everyone else, more self-reflection and your own foot-print in the world, as well as your relationship to God.

The story of Father Chris Riley, in World Beyond Tears, is interesting starting an orphanage in Indonesia, where there was strict instruction from the authorities not to promote Christianity.

Unfortunately in history, religion can bring out the worse and the best, but I hope it is more the latter.