What's your take on annual leave?

[breaker]

Nonsense.

Whatever

 

[RandR]

Far too much - that number can easily be cut in 3. Don't even need to go to university to be a plumber!

hahaha.

okay.

Your correct, you dont need to go to university.

But it does take 6 years to get a plumbing licence. 6 years of work and study. Id expect anybody that puts 6 years into achieving a qualification be suitably remunerated above that of someone that hasnt.

On the topic. I like annual leave, but I try my best not to take it. Working in construction job security can be a bit of a minefield at times so I tend to keep my leave and bank it for when its needed.

I would actually love to move into an industry where I can use leave of my own accord.

 

[Starcraftmazter]

But it does take 6 years to get a plumbing licence. 6 years of work and study. Id expect anybody that puts 6 years into achieving a qualification be suitably remunerated above that of someone that hasnt.

It takes 6 years to become a plumber? I find this hard to believe. Very hard.

What exactly is done during these 6 years?

 

[Smurf1976]

No, but you need to put it in perspective...again if everyone earned 50% less it would make no difference at all - it would be a pointless condition.

Petrol, for example, would still cost the same since it's a globally traded commodity. I my income is halved then I now have to spend twice as much of it in % terms on fuel. Same goes for everything else that is commodity based (eg food staples).

How can it get boring? The world is pretty big and there are infinite things to do out there, more than you can do in a hundred lifetimes.

I'm sure that the average person would love to do these things. But they don't have enough money, and wanting to do things like travel etc is a key reason that motivates people to work longer.

Looking at my own immediate work group of 10 people:

1 person does no overtime and is not interested. He is 67 years old.

The other 9 work varying amounts of overtime, all of it on a "voluntary" basis in that they are not forced to do it.

1 person has taken significant leave without pay. Another two have suggested this ought not have been allowed, and another one has stated they are personally opposed to the idea but have no objection to others taking it.

My take on that is people want the money more than they want some extra spare time.

 

[RandR]

It takes 6 years to become a plumber? I find this hard to believe. Very hard.

What exactly is done during these 6 years?

Believe it.

4 year plumbing apprenticeship.
Followed by a 2 year period as a 'provisional' plumber, during which time additional study is needed to then attain an actual plumbing licence. The studying component can be completed in about 18 months. But your still generally required to complete 2 years as a provisional plumber before you can apply for the full licence. (a provisional licencee can 'generally' only work under someone else for eg, in a wages role within a plumbing company)

In case you havnt noticed. In this country we take our plumbing quite seriously :O There's not too many places in the world you can safely drink the water from a tap

 

[Smurf1976]

Really, the cost of labour has fallen dramatically in the last 100 years. How many workers does it take to run a big farm compared to back then? My point is that simply speaking the workers themselves have not reaped the benefits of these productivity increases that have occurred.

There's that massive leverage from oil / mechanisation.

I don't see why? The demand and supply will be exactly the same so the costs will simply adjust to match it. That is what I am suggesting - the costs of everything will go down the same as everyone's salary, so the end result is little change for consumers.

If it takes 100 man hours of labour to produce something then it takes 100 man hours of labour to produce it. If you cut working hours in half, then you just have to employ twice as many people.

Simply dividing the hours across more people doesn't reduce either the time or the cost, if anything it will increase the time due to lost efficiencies associated with greater "hand over" time especially in more intellectual roles.

 

[Starcraftmazter]

Petrol, for example, would still cost the same since it's a globally traded commodity. I my income is halved then I now have to spend twice as much of it in % terms on fuel. Same goes for everything else that is commodity based (eg food staples).

No no no - that doesn't even make sense. If everyone has half the buying power, than it must drop by half - isn't it obvious?

My take on that is people want the money more than they want some extra spare time.

I think these sorts of people are too consumerism focused and don't understand that the best things in life are free. Perhaps once they are 67 years old they will realise - but by then most of their life will have passed by. It is quite sad, I feel sorry for them.

4 year plumbing apprenticeship.
Followed by a 2 year period as a 'provisional' plumber, during which time additional study is needed to then attain an actual plumbing licence. The studying component can be completed in about 18 months. But your still generally required to complete 2 years as a provisional plumber before you can apply for the full licence. (a provisional licencee can 'generally' only work under someone else for eg, in a wages role within a plumbing company)

In case you havnt noticed. In this country we take our plumbing quite seriously :O There's not too many places in the world you can safely drink the water from a tap

Sounds like a lot of red tape to unjustifiable increase their pay.

Also, would you not make money during these 6 years anyway? And so then it is quite irrelevant.

Simply dividing the hours across more people doesn't reduce either the time or the cost, if anything it will increase the time due to lost efficiencies associated with greater "hand over" time especially in more intellectual roles.

That need not be a problem - you can simply have people work on and off by project. Ie. Work 40 (or even more?) hours a week on a project, then take a holiday next project, etc.

 

[Smurf1976]

Far too much - that number can easily be cut in 3. Don't even need to go to university to be a plumber!

Rubbish. The plumber would be lucky to earn the equivalent of a $30 per hour job charing that much due to the overheads and the sheer volume of time spent complying with all manner of rules and regulations.

If that were cut by two thirds, the plumber would be earning less than zero and hence we'd have no plumbers.

As for the university bit, that is indeed true but I don't see the relevance of it. You don't need to understand how to spin up and synchronise a machine (at a power station) or play the violin to be a lawyer. But I'm sure there's plenty of lawyers who use electricity and who listen to music.

Working in a place that has a lot of contact with engineers, one thing I've noted is that new people on both sides (trades or engineers) always start with a bit of apprehension toward those on the other "side". Give it a year or two and they end up with massive respect once they see for themselves what the other role really does involve.

 

[Smurf1976]

No no no - that doesn't even make sense. If everyone has half the buying power, than it must drop by half - isn't it obvious?

Only if consumption falls.

If it takes x amount of labour to extract a barrel of oil (for example) using currently available technology and the oil fields we actually have today then that's how much labour it takes. Changing the working hours doesn't reduce this.

think these sorts of people are too consumerism focused and don't understand that the best things in life are free.

Unless you count bushwalking etc then most recreational activities cost money. Given that most people would have already done the free ones, since they can afford to, they need money to do more.

That need not be a problem - you can simply have people work on and off by project. Ie. Work 40 (or even more?) hours a week on a project, then take a holiday next project, etc.

Whether or not that works will depend on the project. If the project runs for 3 months then maybe it would work. If the project runs for 10+ years then I can't see the idea catching on.

 

[drsmith]

Pain in the ass I gotta pay a bloke to have 4 weeks off + 17 1/2 %

Then pay someone else to do his job ,so it costs me, no you twice as much.

same with public holidays Australia does'nt go back to work till after Easter

I don't wanna work for you.

All part of the cost structure to consider when hiring an employee, although I do understand, that list is rather long.

 

[RandR]

Sounds like a lot of red tape to unjustifiable increase their pay.

Red tape ? in this country ? never.

For the most part it does make the standard of plumbing within Australia the envy of the plumbing 'world' ... and deliveres to the workforce a steady stream of tradespeople any industrialised country would be happy to have .. but ... lets cut the tape !

Also, would you not make money during these 6 years anyway? And so then it is quite irrelevant.

People that go to university generally make money during years spent studying too. So should we assume you come to the same conclusion that the length of time one takes to acquire a tertiary degree irrelevant ?

Ive studied at university and completed a trade. I made more money whilst studying at uni then during the formative years of my trade.

 

[Julia]

How can it get boring? The world is pretty big and there are infinite things to do out there, more than you can do in a hundred lifetimes.

If so many people now retired had so much to do in the way of leisure opportunities, you would not see the current level of volunteerism in communities all throughout Australia. Working is how many people get their sense of identity and usefulness.
Many people, when they retire, feel bored and lost and can't wait to fill their lives up again with working for no financial reward, such is their need to feel part of society.

Well we don't really know that do we, perhaps the haircutter will be happier because they only need to work 20 hours and do haircuts quicker?

Do haircuts quicker? (should actually be "more quickly" if we are pedantic).
The fact that you can make such a comment probably means you cut your own hair and have little understanding of the skill that's required for a good haircut.

 

[Starcraftmazter]

If it takes x amount of labour to extract a barrel of oil (for example) using currently available technology and the oil fields we actually have today then that's how much labour it takes. Changing the working hours doesn't reduce this.

Honestly, labour is pretty insignificant when it comes to oil. An oil rig would cost more than what it would cost to employ everyone working on it for the rest of their lives. Increasingly, oil rigs are becoming unmanned or requiring very little labour to operate them.

Productivity improvements in technology will ensure less people need to be employed.

I would wager a bet there are a lot of businesses that are just itching to lay people off and replace them with technology. This will be a great excuse - and will unleash an unprecedented wave of productivity growth. Of course because everyone will be working a lot less, there should still be plenty of jobs.

People that go to university generally make money during years spent studying too. So should we assume you come to the same conclusion that the length of time one takes to acquire a tertiary degree irrelevant ?

I don't really agree. I doubt an engineer would make money building bridges while he's studying, or a doctor make money doing surgery while they are studying. And so on and so forth.

A plumber can do the same thing they are studying while studying and I am betting they will get more than the minimum wage doing it.


Personally I never worked during uni as there was simply no time to, indeed it is a ridiculous notion to me. A uni student's studies are never finished.

If so many people now retired had so much to do in the way of leisure opportunities,

One of my key points is that it is important to do a lot while you are still young, as you lose both physical and mental capacities by the time you retire.

It is very difficult to learn new concepts, new languages, new fields of study when you are 70 - but much easier in the 20s, 30s and 40s. That is why I say people should work much less.

Likewise it is difficult to do a lot of physical activities when you are old...

you would not see the current level of volunteerism in communities all throughout Australia. Working is how many people get their sense of identity and usefulness.

And volunteering may well be one activity younger people can do more of - if they had the time to do it. There is no need to be formally employed in order to be useful. Going back to plumbing, if a plumber worked 20 hours a day - they would have a lot of time to do volunteer plumbing for those not fortunate enough to afford $80/h :

Many people, when they retire, feel bored and lost and can't wait to fill their lives up again with working for no financial reward, such is their need to feel part of society.

I would perhaps theorise that it's due to their long-time of remedial and repetitive work. If only people had more free time spread across their lifetime, I am sure they would have a lot more to do at all stages thereof. But instead work has really killed the human inside of them - and turned them into a machine with but a single purpose. Or something philosophical like that.

Do haircuts quicker? (should actually be "more quickly" if we are pedantic).
The fact that you can make such a comment probably means you cut your own hair and have little understanding of the skill that's required for a good haircut.

What? That makes no sense. I also don't cut my own hair, I do not understand how it is possible to do that (well). When I get a haircut, it only takes 5 minutes though, not 30. Now there's some productivity

 

[breaker]

you probly have no hair

 

[Smurf1976]

Honestly, labour is pretty insignificant when it comes to oil. An oil rig would cost more than what it would cost to employ everyone working on it for the rest of their lives. Increasingly, oil rigs are becoming unmanned or requiring very little labour to operate them.

And the money to build then goes where, exactly?

We don't pay the earth for it's resources, meaning that paying for labour and returns on capital are where the money goes.