What is racism?

[SirRumpole]

I have read it before.

You are talking about documents written 80years after Jesus died.

You might actually try reading my post quoted below before being so dismissive.

I really would like to see a colour photograph of Captain Cook's landing at Botany Bay before I believe that he was there.

You can ask for whatever evidence you like, but expecting the Romans to write about what to them would have been a minor figure and one of their enemies during his lifetime is unrealistic.

Argue it out with professional historians, they seem to disagree with you.

 

[Value Collector]

I really would like to see a colour photograph of Captain Cook's landing at Botany Bay before I believe that he was there.

.

obviously a colour photo is to much to ask, but artwork of cook made during his life, documents about him from during his life, documents written by him etc.

I don't think its to much to ask for just one piece of art work showing jesus that was made during his life, or one document written by or about him during his life.

Why are the only things that exist about him show up decades after his death? we have plenty of Jewish art from that time, when jesus was said to have lived there is jewish art showing bible characters from the Old testament such as moses, why didn't anyone make some art of Jesus?

You can ask for whatever evidence you like, but expecting the Romans to write about what to them would have been a minor figure and one of their enemies during his lifetime is unrealistic.

He would have meant a lot to a lot of people, some one would have had to record something during his life, remember this guy is meant to be a god, there is plenty of smaller figures who were recorded.

Argue it out with professional historians, they seem to disagree with you

As I said, read what they are taking as proof, even they admit the evidence is scant and they are using the bible as evidence, but the bible is the claim not the evidence.

and its one thing to say a man existed that inspired the legend, its another thing to say the legend itself is a historical figure.

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you didn't answer my question on santa, is "Santa Claus" an historical figure in your opinion?

 

[SirRumpole]

Why are the only things that exist about him show up decades after his death? we have plenty of Jewish art from that time, when jesus was said to have lived there is jewish art showing bible characters from the Old testament such as moses, why didn't anyone make some art of Jesus?

You can ask for whatever evidence you like, but expecting the Romans to write about what to them would have been a minor figure and one of their enemies during his lifetime is unrealistic.
He would have meant a lot to a lot of people, some one would have had to record something during his life, remember this guy is meant to be a god, there is plenty of smaller figures who were recorded.

Jesus was a Semite but he was starting a separate religion from that of the Old Testament so he would have been seen as an underminer of the old ways and a maverick by a lot of people who would have shunned him and would not have included him in the culture of that time evidenced by the fact that they chose him to be crucified rather than a thief, so it's not surprising that there is little literature about him during his life.

The fact that nothing of written testimony during his lifetime survives but he has now reached the distinction that he has when as you pointed out there were a lot like him in the time shows that it's more likely than not that there was truth behind the legend.

 

[Value Collector]

Jesus was a Semite but he was starting a separate religion from that of the Old Testament so he would have been seen as an underminer of the old ways and a maverick by a lot of people who would have shunned him and would not have included him in the culture of that time evidenced by the fact that they chose him to be crucified rather than a thief, so it's not surprising that there is little literature about him during his life.

The fact that nothing of written testimony during his lifetime survives but he has now reached the distinction that he has when as you pointed out there were a lot like him in the time shows that it's more likely than not that there was truth behind the legend.

He had lots of followers, something should have survived, especially if he is a God trying to spread a message that did so many miraculous things, eg bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands of people, etc etc

If he wasn't a God, then he wasn't Jesus from the Bible, so Jesus from the bible isn't an historical person.

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Can you answer the question.

Is Santa (north pole, reindeer, toy factory, list maker and checker etc) a historical figure?

If not why not? there is more evidence for st Nicolas than there is for Jesus, why are you happy to say the Jesus character is a historical person but not santa.

 

[wayneL]

Yep, but Africans aren't really black either are they, and American Indians aren't really red, and Asians aren't really yellow. these are just terms were use to try and define slight differences in skin tone. I think you are wrapping yourself around the axles a bit here.



Do you have any other supporting research to back those claims?

Seems like a story the Mormon church would construct to try and give credit to their claims that Jesus Visited America.




Again, are you aware of any real evidence for this stuff, where are you getting this from?



There is actually a better than good chance that he didn't exist at all, and this whole discussion might be as silly as us trying to decide the colour pattern of the rainbow serpent. As I have said, if he existed, where are the artworks made of him during his life, the fact we have no art of him until over 100years after his death is a real blow to credibility, such a powerful figure would have inspired art works, where are they?

However there is no reason to believe if he did exist he would have be white, the explaination for that popular image is simply that the people that made those artworks lived in societies of light skinned people and made the images to represent what they saw as being a handsome charac.

I didn't make those claims, just lifted off google for a point. I don't support it. Read for comprehension VC.

 

[SirRumpole]

He had lots of followers, something should have survived, especially if he is a God trying to spread a message that did so many miraculous things, eg bringing people back from the dead, feeding thousands of people, etc etc

If he wasn't a God, then he wasn't Jesus from the Bible, so Jesus from the bible isn't an historical person.

------------------------------------------

Can you answer the question.

Is Santa (north pole, reindeer, toy factory, list maker and checker etc) a historical figure?

If not why not? there is more evidence for st Nicolas than there is for Jesus, why are you happy to say the Jesus character is a historical person but not santa.

The Santa Claus comparison is ridiculous.

Jesus lived in a time of insurrection and had just been executed for speaking out against the State so it's hardly surprising that people were not going to extol him in writing and risk the same fate untill things had cooled down.

Again, professional historians disagree with you, so take it up with them.

 

[Value Collector]

The Santa Claus comparison is ridiculous.

Jesus lived in a time of insurrection and had just been executed for speaking out against the State so it's hardly surprising that people were not going to extol him in writing and risk the same fate untill things had cooled down.

Again, professional historians disagree with you, so take it up with them.

Jesus lived and preached for years plenty of time for a record.

Historians are saying that it's likely a st nick version of Jesus lived, eg a man that inspired the stories, but that in no way means the bible version existed, you are trying to say they think Santa existed when really they are just saying there was likely to be a st nick

 

[Value Collector]

I didn't make those claims, .

I didn't say you did.

just lifted off google for a point

You made me think you were a closet Mormon for a minute and that you actually thought it was plausible that Jesus travelled America converting Indians.

 

[luutzu]

The Santa Claus comparison is ridiculous.

Jesus lived in a time of insurrection and had just been executed for speaking out against the State so it's hardly surprising that people were not going to extol him in writing and risk the same fate untill things had cooled down.

Again, professional historians disagree with you, so take it up with them.

Saw in "the Life of Brian" that there's a teacher and prohet on every corner in those days of Jesus (yes I know it's a Monty movie ). He's apparently the best among them and his followers kept on spreading his teaching until Constantine thought it convenient to take Christianity onboard as a State religion.

I think I heard it from Chomsky that Christianity was, up until it became the new Roman Empire's State religion, was the religion of the poor and the oppressed - that's why it attracted so many followers. Once its in power, it then serve the state and its aims so rises those cathedrals and marble statues and heavy handed suppression of other "cults".

Kinda like modern day capitalism.

 

[SirRumpole]

Saw in "the Life of Brian" that there's a teacher and prohet on every corner in those days of Jesus (yes I know it's a Monty movie ). He's apparently the best among them and his followers kept on spreading his teaching until Constantine thought it convenient to take Christianity onboard as a State religion.

I think I heard it from Chomsky that Christianity was, up until it became the new Roman Empire's State religion, was the religion of the poor and the oppressed - that's why it attracted so many followers. Once its in power, it then serve the state and its aims so rises those cathedrals and marble statues and heavy handed suppression of other "cults".

Kinda like modern day capitalism.

Capitalism has always been about plutocracy and the rule of the rich. Communism started off with the rule of the poor and now its a worse plutocracy than capitalism, how many millionaires in China and Russia now compared to the poor condition of the masses ?

So Communism is more like Christianity, power devolves to a few unelected (or shonkily elected) cadres and cardinals.

 

[luutzu]

Capitalism has always been about plutocracy and the rule of the rich. Communism started off with the rule of the poor and now its a worse plutocracy than capitalism, how many millionaires in China and Russia now compared to the poor condition of the masses ?

So Communism is more like Christianity, power devolves to a few unelected (or shonkily elected) cadres and cardinals.

True. Can't argue with that.

I'm glad we're in Australia where it take a few years before technology and political moves up north came on down. Give us some time to maybe learn a thing or two and avoid their mistakes.

Though an Abbott does happen now and then.

 

[Tink]

As I said, Santa Claus is Saint Nicholas, which is all Christianity, and yet you persist with your religious/Christian persecution, as was going on in that time.
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25726&page=3&p=892355#post892355

Wayne, black is white, man is woman, an orange is a tomato, a triangle is a square, in this double speak.
https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29219&page=11&p=887689#post887689
-------------------------

- The beautiful and the sacred are connected.

 

[qldfrog]

True. Can't argue with that.

I'm glad we're in Australia where it take a few years before technology and political moves up north came on down. Give us some time to maybe learn a thing or two and avoid their mistakes.

And yet the lessons on muslim migration in Europe do not seem to be understood by a few here, even after 30 years of experiences on various modesl: multiculturalism, integration, unlimited welfare etc with similar disastrous results
, but here in Australia, this time, it is and will be different
Too easy, I could not resist Luutzu.
Never confuse racism with experience and knowledge.
In any case, have all a great Christmas.
Note that I did not use the PC horrible "festive season" .Next I will follow Fox news....

 

[SirRumpole]

So Communism is more like Christianity, power devolves to a few unelected (or shonkily elected) cadres and cardinals.

I shouldn't have singled out Christianity of course, all religions are the same, power over the many by the few.

 

[Value Collector]

As I said, Santa Claus is Saint Nicholas, which is all Christianity, and yet you persist with your religious/Christian persecution, as was going on in that time.
I]

Hahaha, so Saint Nicholas lived at the North Pole and had a toy factory? Has flying reindeer? Makes annual global toy deliveries to the his day? Works with elves? Keeps track of behaviour and sleeping patterns of children?

The mythical "Santa Claus" is not the same person as "Saint Nicholas".

No wonder you are religious tink, you seem to have trouble separating myth from reality.

The reason I am comparing Jesus the bible character to Santa, is because even if Jesus was based on a real person, the Bible stories are myths that grew over time and would not relate to his life at all, and the stories about Jesus are so mythical eg born of a virgin, died and came back to life, raised the dead, turned water into wine etc that we can say that guy from the stories didn't exist, just like Santa didn't and doesn't exist.

To the point that "most historians agree there was a Jesus, they are not talking about a supernatural man doing miracles, just that there was a man or a few men who the stories were based on.

 

[SirRumpole]

To the point that "most historians agree there was a Jesus, they are not talking about a supernatural man doing miracles, just that there was a man or a few men who the stories were based on.

Once again you move the goalposts, you started off by saying Jesus didn't exist now you say he did but the stories about him aren't true.

On the second point you are of course on much firmer ground. There is no evidence apart from anecdotal that he performed miracles or actually said what people say he did, so it's a matter of what people want to believe, and you obviously don't which is fine.

 

[Value Collector]

Once again you move the goalposts, you started off by saying Jesus didn't exist now you say he did but the stories about him aren't true.

.

No I didn't I actually said there is a chance he didn't exist, here is my exact quote

There is actually a better than good chance that he didn't exist at all, and this whole discussion might be as silly as us trying to decide the colour pattern of the rainbow serpent.

And when I say I there is a good chance he didn't exist, firstly I am talking about the character as described in the Bible Myths, Just like if I said Santa doesn't exist.

You then linked an article which talked about historians saying there probably was a man or a few men the myths were based, which not only do they not really have much evidence beyond the bible, but they have nothing from during his life, So I don't think it's good evidence anyway, but even if we accepted that, its not really Jesus the bible character is it?

If all you want me to accept is that there was a man or a few men that preached some things and got killed, and then over time a mythical story was based on them, that's fine but I can't accept it because the evidence isn't there and its irrelevant anyway because as I said the man is not the myth.

On the second point you are of course on much firmer ground. There is no evidence apart from anecdotal that he performed miracles or actually said what people say he did, so it's a matter of what people want to believe, and you obviously don't which is fine

There is myths and legend stories about all sorts of people that may have been based on real people, eg King Arther and the Knights of the round table, some have evolved into myths involving slaying dragons and wizards etc,

 

[Value Collector]

Maybe I am wrong after all, Jesus is actually here.

ditch the catholic church tink, pack your bags, your lord and saviour is here.




and he has a lot of followers, over 100,000 that's probably more than the original Jesus had during his life.

 

[SirRumpole]

There is myths and legend stories about all sorts of people that may have been based on real people, eg King Arther and the Knights of the round table, some have evolved into myths involving slaying dragons and wizards etc,

Yeah all that's fine, but if Jesus was as insignificant as you try to pretend then it's more amazing to me that anything about him survived at all let alone for 50+ years after his death when all those who knew him would most likely be dead.

Why was he just not forgotten like all the other preachers of the time ?

 

[Value Collector]

Yeah all that's fine, but if Jesus was as insignificant as you try to pretend then it's more amazing to me that anything about him survived at all let alone for 50+ years after his death ?

As far as we know nothing has survived of the original Jesus if he existed, that's my point.

If the Jesus guy existed and actually traveled round feeding 1000's of hunger people, raising people from the dead, doing magic tricks like water into wine and gaining 1000's of followers, then there should be at least 1 piece of evidence about him that was created during his life.

But we have nothing accept stories that didn't get actually written down for decades after his life, by people that never met him. It seems to me there is a good chance that these are myths that were built up over time spread by mouth growing a little with each telling before they made it to paper. much like the popular Santa myths

when all those who knew him would most likely be dead.

Why was he just not forgotten like all the other preachers of the time

because the stories got popular, lots of camp fire stories last for decades especially religious ones, Christianity isn't the only myth in town, look at Islam its ideas are just as tenacious but that doesn't mean they are real or the stories actually happened.