DeepState
Multi-Strategy, Quant and Fundamental
- Joined
- 30 March 2014
- Posts
- 1,615
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- 81
Hi RY,
Thankyou for your insights into the market and on rebalancing. I certainly can see the merits on the larger scale. However, on the smaller scale I have great difficulty seeing any merit in a constant change. Transaction and tax considerations are going to kill any benefit in even a $500k portfolio of 20 stocks.
From RY....
No offence taken at all, just the scale and cost of doing business for someone in larger organizations makes a world of difference to performance outcomes compared to small individual traders that pay retail transaction costs (my assumption I'll check).
Looking at my own situation, I'm trying to look at how I would have performed over the last year if I had rebalanced instead of outright selling of stocks. It is a hard exercise as I have a different timeframe for different stocks. So I went back to about 28 months ago to see what the portfolio was then, and if I had kept, but rebalanced instead of trading for others, using the first 20 stocks I traded. The account size is in the hundreds of $k, so reasonable for many on this forum.
As I started doing this, just realized how long this will take, will have to get back to you. I've been trading my own account for over 34 years, still time to learn new tricks.
Again RV, thankyou for your contributions, I was just trying to portray how you sounded from a strangers point of view, I meant no offence and I'm glad for your contributions. Anything that makes me sit up, take notice, and do research is welcome.
It involved only stocks in the ASX 20 at the moment.
Hi RY,
Look at this bit from your sums, I'm surprised you didn't recognize the survivorship bias immediately....
A far better comparison is taking the ASX20 from 2002, and walking forward. The current ASX20 are where they are because they performed better than others over that period, with wiggles.
I am still working on mine, the old fashioned way, number crunching each trade to see the strengths and weaknesses. The portfolio is close to random with a scattering from different market segments and vast differences in size of company. I'm doing it quarterly over the last couple of years.
Um, can you say what examples/rationale were provided to me ?Pls also remember that, the presence of expected profitability from rebal is a given. You don't argue with gravity. And you shouldn't argue with rebal probablistically. However, it remains just a point of departure or a default position unless you have a better idea which is strong enough to overcome it. Hopefully the examples/rationale provided to Julia gives you a notion of how it is actually done in practice when pushed to the max.
Um, can you say what examples/rationale were provided to me ?
I don't recall asking a question amongst this discussion.
My only participation in the thread has been a brief response to the OP on his apparent assumption that if he waited long enough a loss would reverse.
Actually, the use of this universe is actually meant to make things harder.
This stuff was bread and butter for us.
Just remember that everything is probability and whatever you find is just one draw from the biased pool.
This equation is water tight. Feel free to kick it around. We've had 30 years to do it and instead of being killed, there are entire institutes and huge firms devoted to it.
RY,
If you really think using the current ASX20 as a means to prove a point, your assumptions are sadly mistaken. I could prove anything works better than just buy and hold using the stocks that make up the top of the tree now, with the benefit of hindsight.
Utter garbage, this universe makes 'things' much easier to 'prove'.
Hmmm. I've been involved with investing for 34 years, never was anything, bread and butter. There are always risks. Just ask LTCM, the masters of the universe, how the bread and butter trades are going, or for that matter Victor Neiderhoffer, again with bread and butter trading.
Has your tune already changed from always working? Especially when you quoted this.....
So which is it? watertight or one draw from a biased universe? I'm kicking it around, slowly but surely. I'll tell you my finding when I get there.
You can choose whether you want to be the straight guy or funny guy. I'm flexible.
@brty... Thankyou RY for making me do the exercise, it was enlightening.
Nothing to apologise for imho.This thread seems to have gone awfully quiet, perhaps it was something I said.
Sorry my fault.
1. In a random portfolio that ended up with 10 stocks going down in price (some of these were positive when dividends were added) 1 that stayed flat(positive with divs) and 9 that went up in price, when all dividends were added to the pool during rebalancing, yet just added to the total for buy and hold, the buy and hold finished 27% ahead, before commissions and taxes were added to the cost of rebalancing.
Rebalancing quarterly adding dividends into the mix for the rebalance, finished at $570,541, before subtracting costs for the rebalance, roughly $400/Qr for commissions. As you would be selling winners only (usually), there is a considerable tax payable as well. There was no need to work this out as it subtracts from rebalancing even more. For example the selling of winning shares in the first quarter alone was $25,898, despite the portfolio being down $6000 in total at that point. You would be creating a current tax liability while losing money on the entire portfolio. Not smart!
2. By the time you added commissions and taxes to rebalancing, while allowing buy and hold to go into Cap gain lower taxes territory,
3. Rebalancing, which is really stealing from winners to add to losers clearly does not work in the real world where stocks go down and some stay down.
4. If the universe of stocks included only the stocks that went up in price, say the current ASX20 from 10 years ago, then yes it probably works.
5. Is anyone prepared to say the current ASX20 will be the same in 10 years time? I'm certainly not.
The stocks used were STO, BSA, OKN, GAP, NBL, MND, AGK, BHP, CAB, NWH, GUD, SHV, ROC, CYG, TGR, RDM, AGO, MGX, NCM, NST. The start date was 9/2/2012, finish 10/2/2014. Closing prices were used.
6. I was skeptical of the gains claimed, now I'm absolutely certain.
7. Thankyou RY for making me do the exercise, it was enlightening.
Wow. I certainly am impressed.
Let's examine the results.
...
It's been fun. All the best with it.
1. this all sounds great for institutional or high-net worth investors. But this is not the "real world" for retail investors. In their world, they have most of their wealth tied up in their own home, residential investment properties, own business premises, commercial investment properties, cash in offset accounts etc.
2. The dominant purpose of investing for these people is to fund a retirement in the long-term and extract themselves from jobs they don't like in the short to medium-term.
ie. Objective/outcome/purpose/"liability"-driven investing.
Rebalancing is not that relevant here.
3. And it obviously only works for highly liquid assets like listed shares.
4. You must have read Buffet's last annual report and his statements about his old farm house property?
... the pots of money are too small to spend effort with rebal in person, then I tend to agree that the point is relevant for accounts maybe <250k or something, but not because of irrelevance ...
Some here have smallish accounts because they are unsuccessful ...
But "winners are losers who keep trying!"
(I don't know who to attribute that saying to)
RY
I have enjoyed your posts in this thread. Plenty to mull over and a good discussion.
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