What does Money Mean to You?

[Fleeta]

10 yrs ago, I was a #6. This caused me to be a #4 with my ex, who was an #8. This resulting in #1 for both of us.

These days Im no longer a #6, #4 or a #1. I am now a cross between #10 and #9, though I would like to be a #3

Thanks Tree, this thread has been quite thought provoking for me. I also loved the fisherman story.

Personally I think in many ways people are victims of their surrounds. For me, one of the hardest things i've found working in the corporate world is that peoples attitudes are just imparted on each other to the point where everyone thinks and acts the same way - and it's all driven by money. The simple life sounds better to me at times.

 

[happytrader]

1. it does not make you happy
2. the more you have, the less happy you are
3. you never have enough
4. nothing starts more arguments
5. its hard to aquire and too easy to lose
6. the people who worry about it 24/7 and have every thought dictated by money motives are not truly alive
7. those who make public statements about charity are usually the tightwads who give nothing. true charity is anonymous
8. those who make the most effort to appear rich are the ones who are struggling.
9. those who have it and wish to keep it dont flaunt it.
10. those who dont have it, dont really care

10 yrs ago, I was a #6. This caused me to be a #4 with my ex, who was an #8. This resulting in #1 for both of us.

These days Im no longer a #6, #4 or a #1. I am now a cross between #10 and #9, though I would like to be a #3

Hi Moneytree

You appear to have created very emotive and negative associations to money. You could just as easily be describing a bad relationship or a chronic disease. In fact you make it sound stressful, immoral and downright dangerous. With attitudes like these it is a wonder you are not trying to repel it, divest yourself of it or at least keep at bay.

No insult intended but thats how your very descriptive list reads. Its like, who in their right mind would aspire to attain it.

Cheers
Happytrader

 

[ctp6360]

I recently sold my business for quite a bit of money (~$15m) and now that I have a lot of money I have a few observations from the other side.

1) I think you really have to be conditioned to have a lot of money, because its a weird sensation being able to buy or do absolutely anything that money can buy; I think if you are emotionally ready for it then when you get it you don't just go on a big spending spree. I guess having EARNT the money is a big thing too, no one is going to piss away years and years of hard work. At the same time, I wasn't and I'm not really excited about my current position, I think this is because I always expected (without being cocky) to be a success in this business, so when it happened I wasn't SUPRISED like you would be with a lotto win.

2) It never seems like enough: call me selfish, but to do all of the things I want to do I still don't feel like I have enough. Maybe this is what drives those people who REALLY have a lot of money to keep working until they are dead. Hopefully I can avoid that one.

3) People change; the people who know about me selling my business are very very few, it was only people who figured it out from the newspaper article who know and my family..but those who do know, its REMARKABLE how differently they treat you. My honest advice would be, if you're going to make a lot of money, keep it quiet, its a horrible feeling when people who have treated you one way all your life just completely change.

4) You realise how much good you can do with the money. Although I haven't bought a ferrari, I have done a few other things:

I paid of my parent's loans and my fiancee's parents loans, and I'm going to buy them both new cars, I helped my brother with some seed capital for his business.

Its this feeling of COMPLETELY changing people's lives that is why I want MORE money, because I realise that the more I have, the more I would be able to help people who I love so that money is no longer an issue in their lives.

The worst thing about it, and the thing you wouldn't expect, is that when you do something like pay off a loan that someone has fought their whole life to pay off, it is very humiliating for them. Hearing my father and my fiance's father say thankyou was probably the worst part about the whole thing. Not because I didn't want them to be greatful (**** me if they weren't you'd be disappointed), but because I would never ever want to put someone in a position where, because of money they felt indebted to me. I feel that, put in the same situation as me, they would do the same for me and more.

Two things prompted me to post, one was that it feels good to get these thoughts out in an anonymous way whilst still having people's opinions to reflect on, and also because I think that moneytree has a very very bitter view of money and I don't think that is right. I am experiencing first hand the positive effects of money, I consider myself very lucky to be in this position.

Addressing moneytree's points specifically:

1. it does not make you happy

I totally agree with this. The money on its own did not make me happy nor even excited, at all. Which was weird because I thought it would! But what does make me happy is being able to help my loved ones overcome their worries, fears and life-long fight with debt. That makes me happy and it is a direct consequence of money.

So maybe it isn't MONEY that makes you happy, its the correct USE of money that makes you happy.

2. the more you have, the less happy you are

That makes compound interest sound like a pretty daunting proposition!

3. you never have enough

Well I would be contradicting my earlier comments if I argued with this. But surely there comes a point where one can acknowledge that they have enough. I'm 23 and I could retire now, but do you realise how worthless I would feel if I did? Did it occur to you that its not the pursuit of money that drives people to want more, but maybe it is the feeling of importance they derive from making more that they crave.

4. nothing starts more arguments

If you don't have the appropriate agreements in place at the outset. Money arguments occur when people have conflicting views about the terms of an agreement. If I gave money to my Dad and then 2 years down the track demanded it back from him, what do you think is going to happen?

Its the same with business, if you are upfront with the terms of an agreement at the start there can't be any arguments because everyone knows where they stand!

5. its hard to aquire and too easy to lose

I'll get back to you on that one. When you say hard to aquire though, its taken me 5 years to get to where I am now and I couldn't think of a more positive 5 years in my life, I've had a great time. Working hard was tough, but now that I have nothing to work hard on I'm MISSING it.

Furthermore, I don't think money is easy to lose if you have a sensible plan for how to invest it. I realise there are unforseen issues such as divorce which affected you, moneytree, and losing half would sure hurt me, but I still don't see that as a reason to avoid money altogether as though it brings on these horrible things.

That's like me avoiding riding a bike because I might fall off and break my arm. Money brings too many good things to avoid it because there are a few negative elements too.

6. the people who worry about it 24/7 and have every thought dictated by money motives are not truly alive

I totally disagree. Look at people who struggle to pay off their credit cards and home loans. They stay up at night worrying about it, they obsess negatively about it like you are now, they talk to everyone about it constantly and curse the government or the banks or whoever else the thing "put" them in this situation.

I'm not saying the opposite to you, that people who have money are the ones that are "truly alive", I'm just saying that if you think that its people WITH money who let money dictate their moves then answer me a question: do you think all the people going to work on Monday morning are letting money dictate their decisions, or not?

7. those who make public statements about charity are usually the tightwads who give nothing. true charity is anonymous

I totally agree!

8. those who make the most effort to appear rich are the ones who are struggling.

That's a loaded sentence but you're probably right.

9. those who have it and wish to keep it dont flaunt it.

I'll keep that in mind, you should add "those who have it and wish to keep it don't give their fiancee's credit cards"

10. those who dont have it, dont really care

About what? money or other people?

Thanks for starting this thread Julia, sometimes it is good to take a step back and wonder what we are doing all this for, and I really hope everyone comes to the conclusion that it is worthwhile.

 

[nizar]

I recently sold my business for quite a bit of money (~$15m) and now that I have a lot of money I have a few observations from the other side.

1) I think you really have to be conditioned to have a lot of money, because its a weird sensation being able to buy or do absolutely anything that money can buy; I think if you are emotionally ready for it then when you get it you don't just go on a big spending spree. I guess having EARNT the money is a big thing too, no one is going to piss away years and years of hard work. At the same time, I wasn't and I'm not really excited about my current position, I think this is because I always expected (without being cocky) to be a success in this business, so when it happened I wasn't SUPRISED like you would be with a lotto win.

2) It never seems like enough: call me selfish, but to do all of the things I want to do I still don't feel like I have enough. Maybe this is what drives those people who REALLY have a lot of money to keep working until they are dead. Hopefully I can avoid that one.

3) People change; the people who know about me selling my business are very very few, it was only people who figured it out from the newspaper article who know and my family..but those who do know, its REMARKABLE how differently they treat you. My honest advice would be, if you're going to make a lot of money, keep it quiet, its a horrible feeling when people who have treated you one way all your life just completely change.

4) You realise how much good you can do with the money. Although I haven't bought a ferrari, I have done a few other things:

I paid of my parent's loans and my fiancee's parents loans, and I'm going to buy them both new cars, I helped my brother with some seed capital for his business.

Its this feeling of COMPLETELY changing people's lives that is why I want MORE money, because I realise that the more I have, the more I would be able to help people who I love so that money is no longer an issue in their lives.

The worst thing about it, and the thing you wouldn't expect, is that when you do something like pay off a loan that someone has fought their whole life to pay off, it is very humiliating for them. Hearing my father and my fiance's father say thankyou was probably the worst part about the whole thing. Not because I didn't want them to be greatful (**** me if they weren't you'd be disappointed), but because I would never ever want to put someone in a position where, because of money they felt indebted to me. I feel that, put in the same situation as me, they would do the same for me and more.

Two things prompted me to post, one was that it feels good to get these thoughts out in an anonymous way whilst still having people's opinions to reflect on, and also because I think that moneytree has a very very bitter view of money and I don't think that is right. I am experiencing first hand the positive effects of money, I consider myself very lucky to be in this position.

Addressing moneytree's points specifically:

1. it does not make you happy

I totally agree with this. The money on its own did not make me happy nor even excited, at all. Which was weird because I thought it would! But what does make me happy is being able to help my loved ones overcome their worries, fears and life-long fight with debt. That makes me happy and it is a direct consequence of money.

So maybe it isn't MONEY that makes you happy, its the correct USE of money that makes you happy.

2. the more you have, the less happy you are

That makes compound interest sound like a pretty daunting proposition!

3. you never have enough

Well I would be contradicting my earlier comments if I argued with this. But surely there comes a point where one can acknowledge that they have enough. I'm 23 and I could retire now, but do you realise how worthless I would feel if I did? Did it occur to you that its not the pursuit of money that drives people to want more, but maybe it is the feeling of importance they derive from making more that they crave.

4. nothing starts more arguments

If you don't have the appropriate agreements in place at the outset. Money arguments occur when people have conflicting views about the terms of an agreement. If I gave money to my Dad and then 2 years down the track demanded it back from him, what do you think is going to happen?

Its the same with business, if you are upfront with the terms of an agreement at the start there can't be any arguments because everyone knows where they stand!

5. its hard to aquire and too easy to lose

I'll get back to you on that one. When you say hard to aquire though, its taken me 5 years to get to where I am now and I couldn't think of a more positive 5 years in my life, I've had a great time. Working hard was tough, but now that I have nothing to work hard on I'm MISSING it.

Furthermore, I don't think money is easy to lose if you have a sensible plan for how to invest it. I realise there are unforseen issues such as divorce which affected you, moneytree, and losing half would sure hurt me, but I still don't see that as a reason to avoid money altogether as though it brings on these horrible things.

That's like me avoiding riding a bike because I might fall off and break my arm. Money brings too many good things to avoid it because there are a few negative elements too.

6. the people who worry about it 24/7 and have every thought dictated by money motives are not truly alive

I totally disagree. Look at people who struggle to pay off their credit cards and home loans. They stay up at night worrying about it, they obsess negatively about it like you are now, they talk to everyone about it constantly and curse the government or the banks or whoever else the thing "put" them in this situation.

I'm not saying the opposite to you, that people who have money are the ones that are "truly alive", I'm just saying that if you think that its people WITH money who let money dictate their moves then answer me a question: do you think all the people going to work on Monday morning are letting money dictate their decisions, or not?

7. those who make public statements about charity are usually the tightwads who give nothing. true charity is anonymous

I totally agree!

8. those who make the most effort to appear rich are the ones who are struggling.

That's a loaded sentence but you're probably right.

9. those who have it and wish to keep it dont flaunt it.

I'll keep that in mind, you should add "those who have it and wish to keep it don't give their fiancee's credit cards"

10. those who dont have it, dont really care

About what? money or other people?

Thanks for starting this thread Julia, sometimes it is good to take a step back and wonder what we are doing all this for, and I really hope everyone comes to the conclusion that it is worthwhile.

hey thats a very good effort bro...

23yrs old, umm do u mind me asking wat type of business it was..?

 

[ctp6360]

I'll answer you in private nizar

 

[Julia]

ctp6360

Well, congratulations. You have done really well. What your comments suggest to me is that you've probably got where you have because of careful planning in addition to hard work. I doubt that many 23 year olds would be doing such a thoughtful examination of their current situation as you have described in your post.

I can't imagine you sitting back and not working for long - doubt that would be comfortable for you.

Your comments about the awkwardness involved in paying off your families' loans are interesting. I suppose it's a situation which doesn't occur very often and as such none of us have had much "practice" at handling it from either side. A lot of people in your situation would never have considered helping anyone else, even within their own family. In my experience, it's usually easier to give than to receive and you are obviously really sensitive to the fact that amongst their gratitude they are a bit embarrassed.
Don't let this take away the pleasure of being able to give. My suggestion would be to put the gesture now that it is done in the background and soon the discomfort will disappear.

When I was going through a hard time after a divorce, my mother helped me out in various ways. It is one of my greatest regrets that, now that I can afford to give her whatever she would have wanted, she is no longer alive.
So just be pleased at what you have been able to do.

Overall I agree with the comments about Moneytree's observations about money which I find to be rather over-generalising. Certainly, some of this is correct, but the overall tone of bitterness and lack of emphasis on all the really positive things money can do is something I can't agree with.

Regarding people putting too much focus on money, this is simply unavoidable if you are really poor. When you want to go out and buy some food, but see the electricity account sitting there and know you can't pay it on your unemployment or sickness benefit, how the hell can you do anything other than be totally focused on money. Being poor is the ultimate humiliation.
A person who would otherwise have good self esteem is cut down to nothing if they have no money. Sometimes I think people who are so dismissive about the importance of having enough money should spend a few months on a government benefit in order to gain some appreciation of how it feels to be part of our society's disadvantaged minority.

Anyway, ctp, all the best for your future which I would expect to be even better than what you have achieved so far.

Julia

 

[Smurf1976]

Regarding people putting too much focus on money, this is simply unavoidable if you are really poor. When you want to go out and buy some food, but see the electricity account sitting there and know you can't pay it on your unemployment or sickness benefit, how the hell can you do anything other than be totally focused on money. Being poor is the ultimate humiliation.
A person who would otherwise have good self esteem is cut down to nothing if they have no money. Sometimes I think people who are so dismissive about the importance of having enough money should spend a few months on a government benefit in order to gain some appreciation of how it feels to be part of our society's disadvantaged minority.

TOTALLY agreed there Julia.

I think the situation of those with little money is far too often overlooked. For example (there are plenty...), far too often we hear that if x is done then that will put power bills up "only 5%" etc. 5% on electricty might mean little to most, but it's yet another outright disaster for the unemployed. Power bills in particular really do cause a lot of sleepless nights. There are plenty of people right now who do not have electricity connected, or use it only for the fridge and cooking, because they simply can't afford it.

It is for similar reasons that I view the rise in house prices as a social diaster. It has truly shattered the dreams of hundreds of thousands of Australians in low paying jobs. If rents rise then that will turn a disaster into a true catastrophy. Don't anyone dare tell me they ought to get a better job... Someone has to do the low paying jobs and often they're the most important to society as a whole. Just contemplate what would happen without people collecting garbage. We'd miss them more than many high paying jobs.

That Australia's house prices are amongst the most unaffordable in the world according to a recent study is something requiring urgent attention IMO. People have to live somewhere and wages aren't rising anywhere near quickly enough to come to the rescue. The dark side of the boom... The good thing about stocks is that rising in value doesn't hurt anyone. Houses aren't the same, they're essential as a place to live in.

That said, I'm actually glad to have been poor in the past although I certainly wasn't at the time. It teaches you a lot and ensures that both feet stay very firmly on the ground as far as ego etc is concerned. It also lead to my learning everything I could about the making of money and limiting expenses. I think I'm far happier now as a direct result. I don't need a plasma TV, leather longe, McMansion or whatever to be happy. Based on what I see going on in the shops, an awful lot of people do "need" those things and are willing to put themselves into incredible debt to have them. If ever these people become unemployed, they're in for an incredible shock in terms of what debt is really about.

In my opinion the measure of success for any society is how it looks after the disadvantaged. The sick, elderly, disabled, poor and so on. That said, socialism isn't a particularly successful economic model IMO so there needs to be a balance which favours capitalism whilst helping those who for whatever reason (unless it's their own choice) don't succeed in that system.

At the risk of being political, I object strongly to handing out welfare to those with plenty (I'd be more specific but that will start a war...) whilst imposing all sorts of ridiculous conditions on those genuinely in need simply because they are a minority. That comment's aimed at both sides of politics as neither has a clean record.

 

[clowboy]

Stocks going up don't hurt anyone.

That's a bold statement and I wouldn't really agree with it.

If when the housing boom ended (which for the most part it did, with some exceptions) the sharemarket didn't take over in it's place would we as a country be where we are today? or would we be in a recession?

It has been argued that without our resource sector we would be anyhow.

Not that Im keen for a recession but the sooner it comes the less people that will be hurt.

In terms of going into debt for plasma TV's etc.....

People (generaly) Don't have even a basic understanding of money anymore.

If a 25 (bear in mind he has only ever seen boom times) year old on 45k a year bought a $200, 000 house and a year later it is valued at $250,000 then why shouldnt he use that equity to buy himself some nice things? It is his money after all he just doesn't want to sell the property ATM.

This is all very well until prices stop rising and/or he decides to sell and the mathmatics don't add up anymore.


It is those with the money that influence the lives of those without money.

Prices cannot go up if the masses cannot afford to pay them. so long as the masses can so what about the little bloke.

In terms of being the garbage collector....not such a bad job really....go be a trolley collector for someone sub contracted out to COLES. No one here in there right mind would take the job. YOU could earn MORE collecting coke cans on the side of the street and taking them to a colection point.

 

[Wealth Wizard]

Hello all, this is a great site, i have been searching for a good forum group to talk to about investments and building wealth and it seems there are some good links.

i have read the 4 pages in this thread..WHERE DID IT GO WRONG!!

I agree with MT's arguement that this is a broad topic and his discussion on negative cashflow was quite informative and justly relevant to a general "money" discussion and its implications on our lives, so an example of how bad money management can lead to ruin it compleatly on topic as is shows that money for those who missmanage means huge problems!!

as for the list that seems to be the new topic of the thread i tend to agree with most of it and think that ctp6360 has the differences covered.


finally money to me simply means having more options to embrace our already limited lives, and if im going to be here for a while then i want all the options i can get!!

 

[Julia]

Smurf,

I don't think a discussion about welfare to the affluent need necessarily "start a war". I for one would be really interested in your comments in this regard. Exchanging views on various aspects of how our society works (or doesn't) imo helps us all develop empathy and understanding of others' points of view.

Julia

 

[Smurf1976]

Smurf,

I don't think a discussion about welfare to the affluent need necessarily "start a war". I for one would be really interested in your comments in this regard. Exchanging views on various aspects of how our society works (or doesn't) imo helps us all develop empathy and understanding of others' points of view.

Julia

OK, here goes but I think this will upset a few. This is going a bit far off the original topic of this thread I think but I'll answer the question since the thread has already drifted a lot...

The number one form of welfare that I would like to see abolished is the First Home Owners Grant (FHOG). All it's done is add even more fuel to the house price fire. People tend to pay what they can afford to for housing - give them a grant and they just added that to the offer price and up went house prices.

First home buyers broke even at best, those moving up the property ladder lose since they pay higher prices but don't get the grant, the taxpayer loses whilst those owning multiple properties are the winners. I have absolutely nothing against anyone investing in property, but I don't like to see my tax $ being used to boost their returns. I would rather the money be put into hospitals, welfare for those genuinely needing it, roads etc.

The end result is a situation where house valuations are about double that seen at the start of bull markets and housing is less affordable in Australian cities than practically anywhere else in the world. It certainly looks like a bubble and the last thing it needed was my tax $ fuelling it.

But markets are cyclical and at some point we're going back to normal valuations. When and how I really don't know but history says it will happen. The problem is that I just can't see a way for the market to correct which doesn't cause misery for a great many people. Wages could increase at 7% per annum with house prices going nowhere for the next decade, that's one option but it's not going to do business a lot of good. Or house prices could fall thus trapping millions in negative equity. Or the boom could somehow carry on thus continuing the misery for those not born early enough to have already bought. Not a good situation to be in but that's where we are.

IMO it comes down partly to greed. People want more, more, more but fail to think of the broader consequences. It may well make them happy in the short term but when the boom ends reality sets in. And so it comes back to the point that IMO money does not buy happiness. Security brings happiness. If you use money to create security then that ought to lead to happiness. But borrowing lots of money to buy consumer goods and bid up the price of houses leads to anything but security despite being very common in practice. Just witness how many live in actual fear of interest rates moving up even to their long term average. Debt doesn't lead to happiness.

So I will be keeping the things I have rather than keeping up with whatever the latest consumer fad is simply because I would rather have security and happiness than debts and misery. It's somewhat different if you have the ability to pay cash of course, but if the statistics are correct then there must be a lot of people with huge debts in this country given that many such as myself owe nothing. I suspect that I sleep a lot better at night than many of the big borrowers despite them having a better quality bed to sleep on.

Consumer goods rapidly depreciate to zero. House prices are a matter of market opinion which changes in both directions. Debt is real and has to be repaid.

 

[happytrader]

I remember my first money experiences as a child being quite painful embarrasssing and disappointing with being ripped off by unscrupulous shopkeepers first on the list. Next came school mates and others either reneging on deals, borrowing or losing things without return or repayment. Later as an adult came workmates, flatmates and partners with similar tendencies and even more manner of creative behaviours for subsidising their own expenditure by smoking my cigarettes, eating my food, stealing, breaking, borrowing things, using my cars, bludging lifts, forgetting their wallets, not being able to pay their credit cards, share of the rent, their bills, their fines and unashamedly trying to spend my money for me and the list goes on. They were always talking and acting hardup and broke. The interesting thing about it is none of these adults were unemployed or in low income brackets. Now looking back it is obvious to me they probably all had either poor me or poor money attitudes with issues of scarcity, lack, greed and a sense of entitlement. Have these experiences left me with a bad attitude to money? No. Money doesn't have a mouth or make demands. It is what it is.

Although I have been financially challenged, I have never ever felt poor. So what if I had to walk, take my lunch, eat creatively, window shop for clothes and toys or entertain myself at home or free venues for awhile. I always felt it was temporary, I would prevail and accummulate even more. The point is if I had not 'let go of the unsatisfactory situations' (the above mentioned type people) there is no way I could have positioned myself for satisfying ones.

Does trading imitate life or what?

Cheers
Happytrader

 

[happytrader]

Hi Smurf

This is probably contrary to what you and most people think. Australia really, really is the lucky country and its still cheap to live here.

Like Julia I came from NZ 18 years ago. In 1986 a two bedroom unit in an okay area, 20 minutes away from Auckland City cost $120 per week. My desk job paid $140 per week. Rump steak was $6.99. Lunch at Pizza Hut cost $7 with no extras and a steak and salad at the local pub bistro at least $10. Petrol was nearly a $1 a litre then. As for interest rates 5.5% return for a fixed term at a building society was pretty good. Bulk billing your MD didn't exist.

Now 20 years later in NQ a 2 bedroom flat in an okay area starts from $140 per week and the dole is more than my desk job paid. Eating is cheap and eating out is even cheaper. As for petrol its been cheap here for that long its about time it went up. As for furniture, electrical appliances, clothes, homewares same thing, cheaper than they were twenty years ago. Interest rates, well still a gift. Bulk billing, free emergency dental care all there.

Look at the reality Australia is the absolutely best place in the world to be 'poor' Why do you think people bust their backsides to live here?

Cheers
Happytrader

 

[Smurf1976]

Agreed that Australia is a good place to live. My point is simply that the pursuit of paper wealth, and that's all the increase in house prices is for the majority, PAPER wealth, could well lead to an awful lot of unhappiness sometime in the future. If this bubble doesn't end in tears then to my understanding it will be the first one in recorded history to do so. Not good odds IMO and I don't see the point in fuelling it with taxpayer funds.

I just see a lot of people living a lifestyle they can't really afford without thinking of the likely consequences. Their choice of course, I'm not preaching, but I just see it as a symptom of being overly focused on paper economic wealth rather than true happiness.

Interesting to see how it develops over the next few years.

 

[Julia]

OK, here goes but I think this will upset a few. This is going a bit far off the original topic of this thread I think but I'll answer the question since the thread has already drifted a lot...

The number one form of welfare that I would like to see abolished is the First Home Owners Grant (FHOG). All it's done is add even more fuel to the house price fire. People tend to pay what they can afford to for housing - give them a grant and they just added that to the offer price and up went house prices.

First home buyers broke even at best, those moving up the property ladder lose since they pay higher prices but don't get the grant, the taxpayer loses whilst those owning multiple properties are the winners. I have absolutely nothing against anyone investing in property, but I don't like to see my tax $ being used to boost their returns. I would rather the money be put into hospitals, welfare for those genuinely needing it, roads etc.

The end result is a situation where house valuations are about double that seen at the start of bull markets and housing is less affordable in Australian cities than practically anywhere else in the world. It certainly looks like a bubble and the last thing it needed was my tax $ fuelling it.

But markets are cyclical and at some point we're going back to normal valuations. When and how I really don't know but history says it will happen. The problem is that I just can't see a way for the market to correct which doesn't cause misery for a great many people. Wages could increase at 7% per annum with house prices going nowhere for the next decade, that's one option but it's not going to do business a lot of good. Or house prices could fall thus trapping millions in negative equity. Or the boom could somehow carry on thus continuing the misery for those not born early enough to have already bought. Not a good situation to be in but that's where we are.

IMO it comes down partly to greed. People want more, more, more but fail to think of the broader consequences. It may well make them happy in the short term but when the boom ends reality sets in. And so it comes back to the point that IMO money does not buy happiness. Security brings happiness. If you use money to create security then that ought to lead to happiness. But borrowing lots of money to buy consumer goods and bid up the price of houses leads to anything but security despite being very common in practice. Just witness how many live in actual fear of interest rates moving up even to their long term average. Debt doesn't lead to happiness.

So I will be keeping the things I have rather than keeping up with whatever the latest consumer fad is simply because I would rather have security and happiness than debts and misery. It's somewhat different if you have the ability to pay cash of course, but if the statistics are correct then there must be a lot of people with huge debts in this country given that many such as myself owe nothing. I suspect that I sleep a lot better at night than many of the big borrowers despite them having a better quality bed to sleep on.

Consumer goods rapidly depreciate to zero. House prices are a matter of market opinion which changes in both directions. Debt is real and has to be repaid.

Smurf:

You could have written the above on my behalf, so close is it to how I think.
Finding a solution is less easy. In your earlier post you commented on the failure of socialist societies. I sometimes try to work out just why they have failed so badly. Is it because they necessarily offer no incentive to improve one's lot in life, is it because living is proscribed and offers no opportunity for initiative or individuality, or is it perhaps that many human beings are basically competitive in nature and the socialist ideal suppresses any notion of competitiveness? I don't know. I agree with your suggestion that an ideal society is in fact based on capitalism (incentive system) but will always care for its disadvantaged minorities.

Re those disadvantaged groups: some in these categories quite rightly earn the anger of tax payers when they lie and cheat to obtain benefits, or, having obtained them, fail to use these tax payer provided incomes sensibly.
Most weeks I see someone on an unemployment or disability benefit, who has been simply irresponsible and then want to access further funds from the tax payer in the form of food vouchers, electricity/rent payments etc.
An example was a regular "client" on a disability pension who, having arrived in a taxi, cheerfully admitted he had spent the afternoon at the pub, bought some dope, and therefore couldn't afford to buy food! He felt he should be entitled to a $40 food voucher. I didn't agree.

Then on the other hand, there are people who are genuinely very sick and whose medical costs are quite beyond their capacity to pay on a sickness or disability benefit. Often their already considerable health problems worsen because they simply cannot afford to pay the "gap" payment on X-Rays etc or access the necessary prescriptions. Rents have risen more than 20% here in the last year yet there has been no similar increase in rent allowance fromCentrelink for tenants.

As you pointed out earlier, it is often unreasonable to expect many of these people to get either a better job or a job at all. Some of them are simply unemployable for a variety of reasons.

These are the anomalies of our affluent society. Hard working young people who will never be able to save the deposit for their own home, just because of house prices being so high. Sick or otherwise disadvantaged people whose life problems are hugely exacerbated because they are marginalised and almost excluded from normal society because of being chronically poor.
Yet if social welfare benefits were increased, this would provide even greater potential for abuse.

I agree re the first home owners' grant. People were using this to buy homes worth over $1M. What sort of resentment does this produce amongst the people who will never be able to own their own home.

I have no clever ideas for how to solve all this. What I do feel is that there is precious little interest on the part of our politicians, federal and state, in attempting to do anything to make our society more equitable. I just find it breathtaking to hear Costello suggest there will be further personal tax cuts when people are dying on hospital waiting lists, and HECS payments are becoming ever higher.

Julia

 

[Julia]

I remember my first money experiences as a child being quite painful embarrasssing and disappointing with being ripped off by unscrupulous shopkeepers first on the list. Next came school mates and others either reneging on deals, borrowing or losing things without return or repayment. Later as an adult came workmates, flatmates and partners with similar tendencies and even more manner of creative behaviours for subsidising their own expenditure by smoking my cigarettes, eating my food, stealing, breaking, borrowing things, using my cars, bludging lifts, forgetting their wallets, not being able to pay their credit cards, share of the rent, their bills, their fines and unashamedly trying to spend my money for me and the list goes on. They were always talking and acting hardup and broke. The interesting thing about it is none of these adults were unemployed or in low income brackets. Now looking back it is obvious to me they probably all had either poor me or poor money attitudes with issues of scarcity, lack, greed and a sense of entitlement. Have these experiences left me with a bad attitude to money? No. Money doesn't have a mouth or make demands. It is what it is.

Although I have been financially challenged, I have never ever felt poor. So what if I had to walk, take my lunch, eat creatively, window shop for clothes and toys or entertain myself at home or free venues for awhile. I always felt it was temporary, I would prevail and accummulate even more. The point is if I had not 'let go of the unsatisfactory situations' (the above mentioned type people) there is no way I could have positioned myself for satisfying ones.

Does trading imitate life or what?

Cheers
Happytrader

Hi Happytrader,

The standout phrase in your above post is "I always felt it was temporary".
You knew, as I did when I was poor, that you would overcome the difficulties and move on.

Also, you made the choice to leave behind the company of people who were essentially abusing your trust.

In an ideal world all people would be in a position to make the same sort of choices we have done. Australia is one of not very many countries in the world where it is at least possible.

I guess this thread has appeared to veer somewhat off course at times, but it is all the kind of thing I had in mind when I first started the thread.

Julia

 

[Smurf1976]

I have no clever ideas for how to solve all this. What I do feel is that there is precious little interest on the part of our politicians, federal and state, in attempting to do anything to make our society more equitable. I just find it breathtaking to hear Costello suggest there will be further personal tax cuts when people are dying on hospital waiting lists, and HECS payments are becoming ever higher.

I too think tax cuts to be a low priority. Certainly if there was too much money being collected the by all means cut taxes. But when there's all the trouble with hospitals etc it's just not a sensible decision in my opinion.

From a broader economic perspective I also consider it to be irresponsible. The house price situation is on page 3 of today's Sunday Tasmanian and most people in southern Tas will have seen it. It's undeniable that housing is a problem. But what happens if taxes are cut? My guess is that it ends up going straight into higher house prices thus devaluing the savings of those trying to enter the market. The worst possible response to a clearly over valued market.

There's also the point that the time to boost government spending is during a downturn rather than a boom if stability is the objective. It's hard to boost spending by a great deal when you're already handing out tax cuts etc pretty much every year. Accumulate a surplus during boom times, spend it during hard times. To be fair, they are running a surplus which is sensible. But IMO now's not the time to be cutting personal income tax from a purely economic perspective. Company and other taxes maybe, but not personal income tax given the potential to add to the housing bubble. Once the housing situation is clearly under control, then might be the time to look at income taxes. That said, hospitals etc are still a greater priority IMO.

 

[clowboy]

mmmm

All very interesting conversation.

I was talking to someone who use to work with a person( doesn't that sound bad) who was high up in the health system and he said that the health system was a black whole...the more u throw at it the more it eats.

I don't believe I have all (or any) of the answers either but a good start would be to scrap everything and start again.

Medicare is a joke.

Who in there right mind sets up a system that you go to a doctor (as often as you want) pay him then go get a refund (maybee you are out of pocket $9).

It needs redesigning.

Tax is a joke.

It needs redesigning. Alot of talk about this happening but I very much doubt it...not enuff pressure.

I have read a few articles about the Govt's budget and taxes etc and my understanding is that they don't really want to cut taxes (at least not until an election year) but rather have to. Everytime they release estimates the actuals come out and blow there estimates out of the water.

From memory the latest surplus was 39 billion dollars and if not for the elcetion promises and tax cuts so far that figure was over tripple that.

 

[happytrader]

Hi Happytrader,

The standout phrase in your above post is "I always felt it was temporary".
You knew, as I did when I was poor, that you would overcome the difficulties and move on.

Also, you made the choice to leave behind the company of people who were essentially abusing your trust.

In an ideal world all people would be in a position to make the same sort of choices we have done. Australia is one of not very many countries in the world where it is at least possible.

I guess this thread has appeared to veer somewhat off course at times, but it is all the kind of thing I had in mind when I first started the thread.

Julia

Hi Julia

Thank you for your kind words.

Actually when I do look back on these past events and most others, they really seem hilarious or just plain silly, kind of like B grade movies or maybe a bit Andy Worholish. Seriously,though I did learn plenty from them but I use them for entertainment value now.

I sincerely hope that you and anyone else that has ever had afew bum wraps in their time will be able to do the same. If I buy a bag of potatoes and unwitting find a rotten one among them I'm just likely to plant it.



Cheers
Happytrader

 

[Julia]

Hi Julia

Thank you for your kind words.

Actually when I do look back on these past events and most others, they really seem hilarious or just plain silly, kind of like B grade movies or maybe a bit Andy Worholish. Seriously,though I did learn plenty from them but I use them for entertainment value now.

I sincerely hope that you and anyone else that has ever had afew bum wraps in their time will be able to do the same. If I buy a bag of potatoes and unwitting find a rotten one among them I'm just likely to plant it.



Cheers


Happytrader

Happytrader:

I guess what the experience did for me was give me an understanding of how it must feel to be marginalised all the time, not just until I got it together again. It's really easy to be critical of people who seem to constantly fail in everything they do. Failure keeps getting reinforced.

Julia