Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

Sutho81 · 31 July 2011

gardie said:
Hi Sutho and Depresseddad

If what you say is correct and that no such group exists then this is misrepresentation.

WC have to be able to prove this group exists and that this group paid for the register otherwise its another hole dug that they one day will be accountable for.

How can a group undertake two mail outs without having bought the registry. A simple enquiry by ASIC to WC will allow them to trace who is this reaction group and then ASIC could ask them who paid the costs for the mail out.

As I said it feels like another complaint to ASIC coming on.

All evidence points to no group existing.

1. Its clearly a deceptive name designed to imply its the PIFAG without breaking the law and claiming to be the PIFAG.
2. There is no return address or contact details for such a group.
3. No internet search can provide any results for any group of people that support Wellington.

I agree with you that Wellington must prove that this group exists.

I think there has to be strong grounds for legal action as Armstrong Registry being part of Hutsons evil empire had to destribute the register. As no Reaction Group exists it can only come from the parties that had the register.

I think we need to try to identify the company that printed the leaflets and posted them. I suspect that Wellington has to be behind it and probably contracted a third party company to do the mail out. If we can identify the company based on where the letters came from then hopefully we can establish a link to Wellington sending out the letters or people connected to Wellington.

charles36 · 31 July 2011

gardie said:
Hi Sutho and Depresseddad

If what you say is correct and that no such group exists then this is misrepresentation.

WC have to be able to prove this group exists and that this group paid for the register otherwise its another hole dug that they one day will be accountable for.

How can a group undertake two mail outs without having bought the registry. A simple enquiry by ASIC to WC will allow them to trace who is this reaction group and then ASIC could ask them who paid the costs for the mail out.

As I said it feels like another complaint to ASIC coming on.

The PIFAG have made a detailed report concerning the alleged use of the register for an unlawful purpose. We have also provided evidence of approximate date when register would have been used. As a person allegedly mentioned in the flyers, my lawyers would be paticularly interested in locating the author and the abettors of this document for obvious reasons. However, from the calls and emails I received unit holders were more hostile towards the perpertrators than myself and expressed their annoyance and dismay that the register with their personal particulars could be released to person or persons for such an unlawful purpose. One has only to know the vigorous test the PIFAG were subjected to by WC/Armstrong Registry before we were allowed to purchase the register. If that is the case for us WC/Armstrong Registry would have interrogated the PIF Reaction Group in the same manner. Anyone Agree? Another question might be asked, once WC realised the register was used for an improper purpose, if they of course believed that to be so, what did they do about it. Obviously nothing one would think because another flyer went out. Still no investigation or report to ASIC by WC identifying the persons responsible. I suppose I could be wrong and WC did do the right thing and report the matter to ASIC. Anyone agree?

seamisty · 31 July 2011

I am absolutely disgusted that ASIC has not responded as yet to the comprehensive complaint submitted by the PIFAG relating to the use of the Wellington Capital controlled PIF register which was used by anonymous persons to distribute false and misleading information.
I am also sick and tired of receiving the same generic response from ASIC every time I lodge a PIF related complaint assuring me ASIC is making enquiries into the concerns raised.
How long does it take to request from Wellington Capital a list of who has received a copy of the PIF register in the past 4 months? It has to be paid for and a very good explanation as to what the purchaser intendes to use it for etc.
I am no longer going to just email my complaints to different ASIC employees and CC them to MP's etc, I am also going to send them by registered post to Greg Medcraft, ASIC Chairman.
GPO Box 9827
Sydney NSW 2001
DX 653 Sydney

I urge others to do likewise. I am sure the new ASIC CEO needs to be made aware just how long we have been waiting for some much needed intervention from his inefficient staff. Seamisty

Sutho81 · 31 July 2011

charles36 said:
The PIFAG have made a detailed report concerning the alleged use of the register for an unlawful purpose. We have also provided evidence of approximate date when register would have been used. As a person allegedly mentioned in the flyers, my lawyers would be paticularly interested in locating the author and the abettors of this document for obvious reasons. However, from the calls and emails I received unit holders were more hostile towards the perpertrators than myself and expressed their annoyance and dismay that the register with their personal particulars could be released to person or persons for such an unlawful purpose. One has only to know the vigorous test the PIFAG were subjected to by WC/Armstrong Registry before we were allowed to purchase the register. If that is the case for us WC/Armstrong Registry would have interrogated the PIF Reaction Group in the same manner. Anyone Agree? Another question might be asked, once WC realised the register was used for an improper purpose, if they of course believed that to be so, what did they do about it. Obviously nothing one would think because another flyer went out. Still no investigation or report to ASIC by WC identifying the persons responsible. I suppose I could be wrong and WC did do the right thing and report the matter to ASIC. Anyone agree?

I totally agree on all you mentioned:

1. The flyers fuelled my anger at Wellington and Hutson and gave me motivation to want to remove them.
2. From all the reports it is clear Wellington made it difficult for the PIFAG to get the register - yet this fraudulent non existent group gets a copy.
3. The fact that no contact details are on the letter is evidence to suggest that the group does not exist and is a name concocted by a purpetrator to confuse the Reaction Group with PIFAG. (When my mother got the letter she was asking me if the PIFAG sent it to her)

In the absence of such a group existing, and the support in the flyers leaning towards Wellington, one would be reasonable to assume Wellington was behind it.

Perhaps legal action against Wellington and Armstrong would be the way to go????

A quick google search of "mass mail outs" came up with a company called Direct Mail Solutions. www.directmailsolutions.com.au - Assuming Wellingont used a company like this (I am sure many exist in Australia) then all we have to do is find the common link with all the letters in order to;
1. Identify the company that produced the mass mail out (including locations)
2. Obtain court orders to get the client details of who placed the order.
3. Establish the link of the client and Wellington.

JohnH · 31 July 2011

Sutho81 said:
I totally agree on all you mentioned:

1. The flyers fuelled my anger at Wellington and Hutson and gave me motivation to want to remove them.
2. From all the reports it is clear Wellington made it difficult for the PIFAG to get the register - yet this fraudulent non existent group gets a copy.
3. The fact that no contact details are on the letter is evidence to suggest that the group does not exist and is a name concocted by a purpetrator to confuse the Reaction Group with PIFAG. (When my mother got the letter she was asking me if the PIFAG sent it to her)

In the absence of such a group existing, and the support in the flyers leaning towards Wellington, one would be reasonable to assume Wellington was behind it.

Perhaps legal action against Wellington and Armstrong would be the way to go????

A quick google search of "mass mail outs" came up with a company called Direct Mail Solutions. www.directmailsolutions.com.au - Assuming Wellingont used a company like this (I am sure many exist in Australia) then all we have to do is find the common link with all the letters in order to;
1. Identify the company that produced the mass mail out (including locations)
2. Obtain court orders to get the client details of who placed the order.
3. Establish the link of the client and Wellington.

You could be on to something here young fellow (comparatively) Some were sent from Northgate, others from the Hunter Valley mail centres.

The SEMA Group Pty Ltd a national direct mailing Company has the following branches:-

Sydney
6 The Crescent
Kingsgrove NSW 2208
T +61 2 9554 0000

Brisbane
36 Northlink Place
Virginia QLD 4014
T +61 7 3866 8444

and, did anybody get their Reaction garbage from Melbourne??

Melbourne
10 William Angliss Drive
Laverton North VIC 3028
T +61 3 9927 5444

John H.

selciper · 31 July 2011

We don't know what's been going on behind the ASIC-Wellington scenes over the many issues that have concerned us deeply for years. It's difficult to find a reasonable explanation for ASIC's deplorable silence. They permit Wellington (it seems) to thumb their nose at the organisation month after month. Understandably, ASIC must at times operate in the shadows, but somewhere along the line they have mistaken themselves for that other ultra-secretive instrumentality which is called ASIO.

simgrund · 31 July 2011

JohnH said:
You could be on to something here young fellow (comparatively) Some were sent from Northgate, others from the Hunter Valley mail centres.

The SEMA Group Pty Ltd a national direct mailing Company has the following branches:-

Sydney 6 The Crescent Kingsgrove NSW 2208T +61 2 9554 0000

Brisbane 36 Northlink Place Virginia QLD 4014 T +61 7 3866 8444

and, did anybody get their Reaction garbage from Melbourne??

Melbourne 10 William Angliss Drive Laverton North VIC 3028 T +61 3 9927 5444

John H.

John, this is the obvious way to trace this Group of Immaculate Conception.
Dear Jenny can not be compelled to admit to anything even when she may be directed to do so by a judge. She will lie.
Only incontrovertible evidence will do this.
With or without ASIC's help.
We did some fun amateurish sleuthing just recently on this thread.
Exposure followed.
We can co-ordinate such efforts into serious and efficient hunt with dedicated communications structure.
Actual detective costs could be surprisingly low.
There is a wealth of investigative expieriences among many accessing this thread.
I am prepared to make first contribution towards meeting the costs.
Please contact if wishing to explore this further.

Regards,

charles36 · 31 July 2011

simgrund said:
John, this is the obvious way to trace this Group of Immaculate Conception.
Dear Jenny can not be compelled to admit to anything even when she may be directed to do so by a judge. She will lie.
Only incontrovertible evidence will do this.
With or without ASIC's help.
We did some fun amateurish sleuthing just recently on this thread.
Exposure followed.
We can co-ordinate such efforts into serious and efficient hunt with dedicated communications structure.
Actual detective costs could be surprisingly low.
There is a wealth of investigative expieriences among many accessing this thread.
I am prepared to make first contribution towards meeting the costs.
Please contact if wishing to explore this further.

Regards,

Contact Lyonswood Investigations, Drummoyne, nsw for a quote.

seamisty · 31 July 2011

Can anyone please tell me the date on the envelope of the first smear letter. Tthe second was 14 June 2011. Thanks, Seamisty

simgrund · 31 July 2011

charles36 said:
Contact Lyonswood Investigations, Drummoyne, nsw for a quote.

I will Charles.
Can you email your selection of points in brief form that I can present at the Tuesday meeting? Check the PRIV. MESS. box.

Thanks,

Sutho81 · 31 July 2011

seamisty said:
Can anyone please tell me the date on the envelope of the first smear letter. Tthe second was 14 June 2011. Thanks, Seamisty

I received one on the 2nd June and have a phone record of calling Castlereagh on the day to report the activity. We no longer have those as it was widely reported.

However I have kept the second mailout. I still have the completely sealed envelope with Northgate Mail Centre markings. Contents still inside and undisturbed. Something told me it might come in usefull if the offender could be tracked.

JohnH · 31 July 2011

seamisty said:
Can anyone please tell me the date on the envelope of the first smear letter. Tthe second was 14 June 2011. Thanks, Seamisty

Hi Seamisty, HRMC MLOCR 501 31 MAY 11

HRMC is Hunter Valley Mail Centre near Newcastle.

Cheers,

John H.

PS second was on the 14th June............ I still have both envelopes.

seamisty · 31 July 2011

Sutho81 said:
I received one on the 2nd June and have a phone record of calling Castlereagh on the day to report the activity. We no longer have those as it was widely reported.

However I have kept the second mailout. I still have the completely sealed envelope with Northgate Mail Centre markings. Contents still inside and undisturbed. Something told me it might come in usefull if the offender could be tracked.

Thanks Sutho81, Seamisty

gardie · 31 July 2011

Hi

In relation to tracking back and finding out who is the PIF Reaction Group the flyers have come from bulk mails from various places.

Now Australia Post would have a record of payment unless they paid cash. Unless it is part of a legal action Aust Post could not provide those details to the public but ASIC would have the powers to find this answer so supplying where and what date they were posted will ease ASIC job in their investigations.

Someone doing some leg work may find where they were printed if it was not done on anyones own copier machine. Someone has put 20,000 pieces of paper into addressed envelopes so a big chance one of the data groups did the job.

It will be the one that says sorry we cannot give out details due to privacy that did the job because all the rest will be happy to say no we did not do that job ! If we can help ASIC by pointing to who managed the mail out even better.

When people say the PIF Reaction Group doesn't exist this is not quite true.

Something exists and it is either

1) A person who is misrepresenting to investors that they are some form of body of people which is not legal to do
2) They are some form of group and have again acted illegally by not disclosing address, form of structure etc

Either way someone spent a good chunk of money on this and it is worthy more pursuit as it has broken the law

seamisty · 31 July 2011

Also lets not forget:::
Print Mail Logistics (PML) who are responsible for the majority of printing material for the PIF are also shareholders in Armstrong Registry Services, who is coincidently also the registry provider for PML.

Armstrong Registry Services Limited is a substantial shareholder in Print Mail Logistics.

Jenny Hutson of Wellington Capital ltd is corporate adviser to Print Mail Logistics Limited.

Seamisty

DoraNBoots · 31 July 2011

JohnH said:
Hi Seamisty, HRMC MLOCR 501 31 MAY 11

HRMC is Hunter Valley Mail Centre near Newcastle.

Cheers,

John H.

PS second was on the 14th June............ I still have both envelopes.

My first reaction group letter was marked the same as JohnH's and the second was stamped with:
MRMC MLOCR 501 14 June 2011 (6.PM 14 JUN 2011) HUNTER REGION NSW 2310

seamisty · 31 July 2011

DoraNBoots said:
My first reaction group letter was marked the same as JohnH's and the second was stamped with:
MRMC MLOCR 501 14 June 2011 (6.PM 14 JUN 2011) HUNTER REGION NSW 2310

So how many copies of the register would have been disrtibuted between 23rd May and the first mailout?Thats when an investor got notification from Armstrong Registry Services(ARS) that they had received a change of addressof who received the mailouts by direct mail, not a redirection! Narrows the field somewhat. Seamisty

JohnH · 31 July 2011

seamisty said:
So how many copies of the register would have been disrtibuted between 23rd May and the first mailout?Thats when an investor got notification from Armstrong Registry Services(ARS) that they had received a change of addressof who received the mailouts by direct mail, not a redirection! Narrows the field somewhat. Seamisty

Very interesting......... definately two different print-outs, or the first one was manually copied (unlikely). First one is printed in Times New Roman, and second in Courier New !!! Both with self adhesive labels, so probably provided on disc to the mailing house.

DoraNBoots · 31 July 2011

seamisty said:
So how many copies of the register would have been disrtibuted between 23rd May and the first mailout?Thats when an investor got notification from Armstrong Registry Services(ARS) that they had received a change of addressof who received the mailouts by direct mail, not a redirection! Narrows the field somewhat. Seamisty

If a request for the PIF members register is made, WC request the following:

Between $250 and $300 be paid into Armstrong's bank account
The requester must sign a WC document that says they will use it in accordance with the law
The requester must tell WC how they intend to use the register

WC would have to know who requested the register that was used to send the Reaction Group letters due to the fact that an up to date copy was used. WC not reporting this illegal use of the register indicated to me it's a related party. Interesting to note that WC put in writting that the register has not been provided to any person identifying themselves as the 'PIF Reaction Group'. There's our proof WC know it was a misrepresentation by the sender.

Also interesting to note that at the 23rd June 2011 unitholder meeting in Sydney, it was asked if anyone from the Reaction Group was in the meeting and no one put up their hand.

An investigation by ASIC should easily show who dropped $2xx into Armstrong's account and signed the documents mentioned above in the week between 23 May 2011 and 31 May 2011 (probably a few days before to allow for printing). Unless of course it was a related party mailout.

Cookie1 · 31 July 2011

Both of my PIF Reaction Group flyers are printed in Courier. I don't know when or where the first one was posted from as I was overseas and the envelope was thrown away in my absence. The second envelope has an adhesive label, is hand-stamped with a 60 cent stamp and also has "HRMC MLOCR 501 14J" (I can't make out out the rest as it printed on the stamp which has a dark background).

Seems as though somebody paid double to post our 2nd one. The 60 cent stamp was obviously put on first.

Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

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