Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Yes. Jadel we have registered for the AG some time ago.....I've just reread Breakers update #7 (17th June, #323), and I understand this NSX listing will happen, we will not be able to change that. However, the value of our PIF units will not change in line with our NSX units, but with the fund realizing(selling) the assests over time. If we sell our NSX units we will get our cash out, but probably at a great capital loss, or so I understand the general concensus is. In the meantime, %redemptions (and distributions) are coming our way again in a few months, perhaps we can recover a fairer proportion of our investments the long way round. It is the people who were counting on their redemptions months ago who are going to really bear the worst of the loss, esp. while the markets are in the doldrums. I think this is going to depend on so many variables, and we really aren"t in a position to make any decisions until we have all the facts from the forum, see you there.

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Re the NSX listing debate.
Can anyone explain this option that people keep referring to of, 'getting your money out as units at a later date when things improve",?
Doesn't the NSX work like the ASX. Once you list ,the only way Investors can realise your units into cash is to trade at whatever price another punter is prepared to pay on the Exchange: You can't go back to the managers(in our case the RE) and say I would like to have the value in cash that you guys attribute to the units (NTA) because its much greater than I can trade for on the NSX. I thought once you list,...that's it, you are at the mercy of 'the market' forever and a day.
How can you have it both ways? Please Explain!

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Check http://www.aurorafunds.com.au/index.php?&pgname=adit_ts&show_news=n&cache=1214838440944 for an example of an investment listed on the ASX to provide daily liquidity (with the price set by market the forces of supply and demand) and also offering an off market monthly redemption facility (at net tangible asset backing).

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

"Iamspeed", thank you for responding to my NSX query.
The example of the Trust Summary as laid on the Aurora website you gave has clearly demonstarted how both a trading price and a monthly redemption can be made available. Much appreciated? (a fellow AG member hadn't grasped this concept either).
Is it reasonable to expect that JH/WC will be providing us with the sort of detail, e.g. (what's the time frame for redemption 'off market'), at the upcoming meetings... or has she already disclosed any further detail of 'her' NSX structure for PIF, that I haven't received or seen yet?

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi Javier,
Thanks for confirming that these are our only options:
Replace the RE
Remove the RE or
Force the RE to wind up the scheme

I am not proposing we make any decisions prior to the WC meetings but think it’s very important we all understand our rights and options as a group. We will then be able to ask more informed questions at the forums. I got the impression some people thought they could put the NSX to a vote, so wanted to clarify this.

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

communique said:

I am sure we are at a point where the group would like to see clearly stated.

1. What are our options
2. Pros and cons for each
3. How do we achieve each option

Be interested to see opinions on this.

Click to expand...

I would like to see this too communique. Not sure anyone with this knowledge will comment before the WC updates. So I've attached a document with extracts from the PIFs Constitution and the Corporations Act which I think explain some of our rights and how they would be achieved.

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

20c ????? I *%#$@*#& well hope not.

The BIG question is: what returns will JH achieve for us. What will PIF pay out.

Say the fund value is written down to say $500M by the independent assessment that we're about to be given. $500M/755M units = 66c.

If the units pay 8% (5.3 c per unit) and are 'selling' at 20c on the NSX. I'd extend my home mortgage and buy them as fast as they list because I'd be getting 26.5% return and nothing returns as much as that.

What is the JH team's investment performance history?? How good are they at making money for us? Anyone have a clue? I couldn't find anything on the Welcap website aboiut return on investment (ROI) which is NOT A GOOD SIGN

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Yes we have a dual listing but it is the Double edged Sword of Damocles , unless you happen to believe Jenny Hutson is a philanthropist; I think not. She is a business woman with her own long term vested commercial interests. Which quite obviously is to make a lot of money.

Stardust has already clearly explained that the liquidity on the NSX is ialmost non existent. Transpose something like GPM an ex OCV entity trading at 30cents on the ASX with high liquidity and a Net Tangible Asset backing of 90cents and dividend yield above 20cents and then use your imagination to speculate on what the circling vultures will offer the desperate , panic stricken and weak minded , who are forced to sell on the NSX .Some people will be reduced to poverty after this debacle.

Jenny Hutson is offering the same option that Indian women were given when they were forced to commit Suttee and throw themselves on the dead husbands burning funeral pyre.


I will have a two dollar scratche ticket with anybody on this forum if our units do not trade at a least 20cents or lower on the NSX after the latest revelations on the way our fund has been mismanaged and abused . 147 million of investor’s funds in the PIF has now been described in her own words as worthless.

It all sounds so innocuous, we can hold on to our investment ,and we will be all right in the long term .Then we get a percentage of the NTA value that SHE WILL WORK OUT that the fund is worth over time ( some people are going to get a big surprise at that value) while the other poor desperate souls are forced to sell on the NSX.

However it doesn’t work out like that .Slowly inexorably over years like an insidious long term malignant cancer the structure and composition of the original body of investors will begin to change.

The long term grave robbers who average in an accumulate at 20cents or lower will jump at any deal proposed further down the track ;where they can profit, and as Dora has so compellingly pointed out ;they are not going to care two cents for what happens to the unit holders who purchased at full value.

Remember ,Fund managers have a long history of changing the goal posts to suit their own commercial ends

And,do not forget my friends that Jenny Hutsons declared long term ambition is to Manage a listed Company.

We as a group have other options that will not place us in danger of being ensnared in a honey trap that once closed will leave us, as the original investors ,with the most to lose and incapable of choosing our own destiny.

Please think carefully before making your decision.

Regards Chris

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

We have to really grill JH on this. I trust you will be at the forums asking all the right questions right Jadel. Which location will you be at? Once we get all the facts and cannot get assuarances from JH that the original investors will not be embroiled in another merged investment that will dilute our units (of $1) even further and really only benefit those that bought at a major discount on the NSX if listed, then we should I agree take immediate action to have an orderly wind up of the fund. It is important that as many investors go to the WC forums and ASK and be HEARD, then we can go away and take action. Wear your PIF AG logos and try and have a meeting after the JH forum, that is what we will do in Sydney. Newcastle should be easy as I believe there is only a small intimate group of about 30 or so investors..wish Sydney was like that!

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Chris, Thank you, and I read everything you say. However I want all my queries answered before I vote, ignorant and silly as they may seem to you and others!

My reservations are: Jenny was awarded QLD Business Woman of the Year last year, surely because she was the full package, rather than just a "tuppence a dozen clever money-maker....."

Jenny has said in her interview with Breaker, that she is seeking buyers on the NSX, and one would think that if she has faith in her ability to save the PIF, that she would have enough connections in the business world who would be happy to buy units at a reduced premium. Surely this would produce a realistic incentive to interested buyers. And, to create a win-win,and tempt us into selling, her prospective price would surely have to be attractive, then she gets not just the desperate, but a few others as well.
otherwise too many will be happy to hang about for the long haul, as long as they are getting their distributions.

Also, as I undrestand it, she has said that we can nominate a price to sell, and if we don't get it, we can retain our units as before. I can't see how this can be dangerous for us.

I am more than happy to stand corrected by you.

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Duped said:

JH is on the board of WC and MFSIM right? Well that really worries me. She sold PIFs GPM shares sale for 25.5 cents (+ 40% of capital gains thereabove) and they haven't traded under 32 cents since. (I don't hold out any hope for the 40%. Show me the money. What's stopping Trojan selling to a related entity when the share price is down? Goodbye any CG. Its the MFS way.) She's quoted as saying '100 per cent sure history is going to show the judgement was right' (goldcoast.com 16 May 08). Well the evidence is to the contrary for the moment.

Oh and don't forget the planned 2.225c per share distribution planned for the 1/4 ending June 30. Have set up a little reminder to check up on that.

Lets make something very clear JH, you're not paid to be right, your paid to maximise returns to the investors. That is your duty, your obligation.

Click to expand...

Ann for GPM dated 18 June http://www.asx.com.au/asxpdf/20080618/pdf/319pql5dtlr6vl.pdf

2.225 c per share dividend (for the QUARTER) will be paid. At 25c per share that's 35% pa return. PIF missed out on that.

But GPM traded today at 25c. That's POST ex-dividend date. What JH sold PIF's shares at.

And the above mentioned GPM ann warns of write downs. Meaning any hope of seeing any 40% of capital gains JH negotiated is going going gone.

So far this is the only performance data I have seen and it's not particularly bad but it's certainly not great.

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Mary you are certainly not ignorant or Silly

I can only relate from previous bitter mistakes and experience in these matters and am no genius

If she is looking for buyers it would have to be from some institution or high net worth individual they would only be only prepared to enter at a huge discount to the Net Tangible Asset value for the long term .Hutson herself has stated she expects the fund to be a long term proposition over five years

Look at the sort of value James Packer is getting on living and leisure shares he has gained control of the assets at a bargain basement price.

This highlites the dangers i expounded in my previous post assuming one fund or person does accumulate a considerable amount of shares over time
than that gives them a considerable amount of voting power and a very real possibility of takeing control at a very low price at the expense of the initial investors in the Fund


Regards Chri

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Not having much sophistication in money matters, I find the daily opinions on this thread very important. They also help me to understand the possible traps. Thanks to all of you who set out the various scenarios.

A great difficulty to face is the fact that most of the investors have very little info about the important choices facing us all. Some may just tick a risky "yes" box to get any sum of money into depleted bank accounts. There's undoubtedly growing despair in our ranks. Reaching other investors seems of paramount importance.

If the likes of Breaker1, Chris and Javier and other knowledgeable AG members cross examine JH at the forums, it should result in lots of investors becoming alert to possible perils..

And just how did our $147m. disappear? I recall one MFSPIF guy telling me that the monthly income payout to investors was around $5m. Seems like a small sum compared to $147m (or about 29 monthly distributions).

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

This highlites the dangers i expounded in my previous post assuming one fund or person does accumulate a considerable amount of shares over time
than that gives them a considerable amount of voting power and a very real possibility of takeing control at a very low price at the expense of the initial investors in the Fund


Regards Chri[/QUOTE]



= CHRIS SCOTT ??? Seems like a likely person if this were to occur, the man has lost over $200m from OCV, he'd be looking at ways to make it up, this would be a perfect vehicle and pretty simple over time.

This is the only thing I hate (at this stage) about WC been given pref to take PIF, the "good old mates" connection, it is something that scares me and is why we must get all the facts then make decisions. IT STINKS!!!!!!

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

The attached article from Crikey explains the relationship between Jenny Hutson and Chris Scott.

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

If theres anything I can gather from all the above Posts its that the trust for the "new" management of the PIF is questionable at best.

JH's first priority is to instill trust back with the investors of the PIF.
JH isnt winning friends by Not working in favour of the people who are the fund - the Investors.
So far she has adopted the old Octaviar motto of - "tell the investors later" we havent been given ONE positive thread of feedback.

We've been screwed by the very people we entrusted to look after our interests. People with Law and business degrees who's occupation it is to manipulate money and to take a profit for themselves.

This has been going on since January, Just Now, Its been shown that the PDS and Constitution have been proven to be worth nothing more than a roll of sorbent. The Asic circus shows they couldnt distinguish their ass from their knee.

Throw in the information that Perpetual, Hutchins and Watts are still involved makes it all the harder to stomach.

Regardless of anyway JH may try and swing it, the sale of management rights for 20Million was a bargain to say the least, The sale of the GEO shares and mention of the NSX up to this point doesnt give faith to any of her/their decisions.

Any investor who seem to think that their assets and their money are now in safe hands and the very best will be done so we get $1 for $1 return need to think again.

We need to keep building up this AG

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

A MUST READ

Dora's recent "Crikey" attachment is very relevant to recent posts. It looks like the press searchlights are well and truly switched on and looking at our situation.

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Hi DoraNBoots,

This is really old news isn't it? Crikey has been on the Octaviar bandwagon since January and any news is bad news. It's sensational media like this that makes our investments even harder to offload because of the speculation.

I mean shouldn't we give Wellington the benefit of the doubt at some level because Wellington has commenced legal action against Octaviar?

Hard to believe that can you be suing someone for $100 million for related party transactions and have a related party transaction of your own ... looks like Wellington are trying hard to communicate with us, and to be honest, after reading the forum, what other option have we got?

Frankly, liquidation never seems to work out for the little guys like us at the of the queue. We always get screwed.

I for one am going to reserve my judgement until I get to see what Jenny has to say at the forums. No point shooting the messenger until we've heard the message.

selciper said:

A MUST READ

Dora's recent "Crikey" attachment is very relevant to recent posts. It looks like the press searchlights are well and truly switched on and looking at our situation.

Click to expand...

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Dear "PIFholder"

The forthcoming forums is an opportunity for WC to sell itself and JH in particular as the person for the job. This is what the forums will be with all the hard questions deflected in finger pointing at the old board.

The major stumbling block is trust or lack of it.

WC was Chris Scotts advisor and then must have continued that role with OCV once they got CS on the board. To sell the management rights to your own advisor without even entering discussions with other parties has had huge ramifications for your fund.

I know of at least one other group who had lodged a formal expression of interest and OCV would not return phone calls or correspondence with this consortium (including JH who was provided a copy of the proposal before Chris Scott was even on board).

It is as Crikey suggests that no one got close to doing Due Dilegence as both the old and new board would not let any other party in the door.

Consider for one moment if a party had bought the management rights who had the resources to replace the RBOS facility. THis would have removed the number one threat to your fund. Deals like GPM would not be required as the fund would have had the luxury of time to hold this investment until the market returns to some form of normality which over time will occur. This was an income earning investment.

The proposal I am aware of may not of being the best offer on the table as I am sure other groups had also expressed an interest but to date I believe it was better than the WC offer as the consortium had the capacity to bring in new funding which WC has not put in one cent of their own money.

The sale process should have being transparent and not conducted in the manner it was.

There continues to be alternatives for the fund out there in terms of an ongoing management and if you formalise your group into a structure with a committee these groups I am sure would love to sit down and talk with your committee about alternatives. Sadly as time moves on they can help less as deals like GPM occur which makes the position worse not better and they have less assets to work with.

The bottom line is that the existing RE has to go as it should be the number company sued in relation to the 147 million in money that has disappeared. It has its own board and compliance committee who signed off on tranactions. No one is forced to do anything unless they had a gun at their head. If OCV threatened to sack these people if they did not undertake the transactions they should have ran to ASIC at that point.

I will also leave you with a final thought.

With this $147 million claim plus the $50 million the total claim against OCV is $197 million. Between this claim and the NZ claim in total dollar terms any scheme of arrangements put up for OCV (x cents in the dollar as full and final settlement) will be either agreed or voted on by your RE and between the RE and OPI Pacific Finance ?? they control the fate of OCV. (A scheme of arrangement is voted for by creditors and these two by total dollar value now out weight Challenger and Qld trustee)

Do you trust the until recent advisor of Chris Scott to do the best deal for the fund and not in anyway compromise the outcome to benefit OCV. IMO it would be better to have a fully indepenent party protecting your interests and conducting these negotiations with CS and potentially voting on any formal scheme.

A question to ask WC on this is will they put any deal in relation to OCV either through a formal administration or negotiation to PIF investors first or will they just cut a deal and tell members after.

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Thanks for your post Tuart!

I’m wondering if Javier would mind letting the group know if he is working with the solicitor on formalising the action group into a structure with a committee. I got the impression this was happening but haven’t heard anything. Please advise if this isn’t being worked on as I’m sure we can get some members on to it.

I would like to think that the committee once formed would look at offers from other potential REs. I have no doubt Tuart is correct in saying there were other offers which could have prevented RBOS’s restrictions on distributions and the sale of GEO. All of this takes time so I see no point in waiting for WC updates or anything else. We don’t want to wait till the fund is in such bad shape that no potential RE is willing to look at us. Again, it’s just to look at offers and doesn’t mean we want to replace the RE but want to check they are the best for our fund.

I realise all of this also takes members’ time so please let us know if assistance is needed