Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

Duped · 5 September 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Quoting the AFR article quoting JH: "more than 3500 ... unit holders had already returned their proxies and more than 97% were in favour of the resolutions."

If the average investment of those 3500 is 167K units then according to JH, WC are already over the line. (I'm assuming 97% voted yes to resolution 1) Note that the average investment is around $70K.

The number drops if less than 100% of unit holders vote
95% returns - 158K units
90% returns - 143K units
85% returns - 121K units
80% returns - 97K units
75% returns - 73K units
70% returns - 51K units

Conclusion: my calcs don't tell us much Where's Antony Green when you need him.

RickH · 5 September 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Jadel said:
LET’S MAKE THIS AS PLAIN AS DAY

THERE NEVER HAS BEEN A STRUCTURED ORGANIZED GROUP OF INVESTORS WITH ANY LEGAL AUTHORTITY OR INDEMNITY FOR MEMBERS UNTIL THE PIFI WAS CREATED.

Personally I can’t think of many things lower (maybe murder or rape comes to mind) than intimidating investors 95% who are over the age of 65 with liquidating their assets arbitrarily and senselessly) to make a dollar.

We consider that this is morally ethically indefensible .and that other alternatives should have been made available for investors to consider.

We can now inform everybody on this site that we have an eight page legal document from Hicksons lawyers that supports that opinion and indicates breaches of the Corporations Act

This document will be made available to all who would like to join the PIFI

I do not intend to engage in any personal arguments and hold no animosity to those who have different opinions (in fact I have a friend on this site who I hold in high regard that supports JH.)

Every investor’s circumstance are unique and ultimately people will vote for what is in their best interests.

Hi Jadel,
I am confused.
Just a few questions by what you have said "Personally I can’t think of many things lower (maybe murder or rape comes to mind) than intimidating investors 95% who are over the age of 65 with liquidating their assets arbitrarily and senselessly) to make a dollar.
Where do you place the MFS/Octaviar people who were involved in the Nov/Dec "Gifts"?
From your point of view Is the new PIFI group doing something similar to JH?

Will you and the new group PIFI personally guarantee that the fund will not be liquidated?
Regards, RickH:couch

seamisty · 5 September 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

RickH said:
Hi Jadel,
I am confused.
Just a small question by what you have said "Personally I can’t think of many things lower (maybe murder or rape comes to mind) than intimidating investors 95% who are over the age of 65 with liquidating their assets arbitrarily and senselessly) to make a dollar.
Where do you place the MFS/Octaviar people who were involved in the Nov/Dec "Gifts"?
From your point of view Is the new group doing something similar to JH?

Will you and the new group personally guarantee that the fund will not be liquidated?
Regards, RickH:couch

I just had a ph. call from WC and there is no alternative to liquidation if they do not get the 75%, so it would be really good if the QLD PIFI would stop misleading the poor elderly investors into thinking there is a better alternative as a means to an end for them to acheive their ultimate aim of LIQUDATING THE FUND!!!!(orderly or otherwise)They will be like the lawyers RickH, and not personally guarantee anything. Their credibility is already out theutthedoor:Seamisty

Duped · 5 September 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

seamisty said:
I just had a ph. call from WC and there is no alternative to liquidation if they do not get the 75%, so it would be really good if the QLD PIFI would stop misleading the poor elderly investors into thinking there is a better alternative as a means to an end for them to acheive their ultimate aim of LIQUDATING THE FUND!!!!(orderly or otherwise)They will be like the lawyers RickH, and not personally guarantee anything. Their credibility is already out theutthedoor:Seamisty

FAYI: Anyone can submit a letter to AFR to correct the Author's article. www.afr.com/home/letter.aspx

Do it right away and it will make tomorrow's edition; should the editor accept the letter.

JohnH · 5 September 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Will you and the new group PIFI personally guarantee that the fund will not be liquidated?
Regards, RickH:couch[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately Rick, they can't so they won't .......... and that's the really scary thing about their actions.

newwwtrader · 5 September 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

After not having been on here for 18 hours and logging back on this afternoon and reading the posts, all I have to say is, is it any wonder that WC has been able to take advantage of this matter.

Like, who really cares if it was the PIFI or the PIF Action Group. That is merely one line in the article. Anyone who would have taken the time to read a bit more would have realised what group it was. The articles in the Australian and the GC Bulletin left no doubt as to who it was. So I think it is fair to say that possibly in reporting the article the AFR may have made a small error, as I would assume the same media release would have been sent to all.

But anyway, none of that really matters. The main points that I gained from the various articles were these:

It seems common ground that when the shares commence trading it will be in the 10 - 20 c range

JH has said the PIF "faces" liquidation in January. "Facing" something is entirely different to being placed in liquidation. IF, the no vote is successful, liquidation can be avoided by other measures!!!

The main thing that I got out of it was this little pearler "Estimates are that units will be priced between 10c and 20c when they list, sparking claims that Ms Hutson or her associates could scoop up units at a fraction of their real value.

But Ms Hutson yesterday denied this.

The question I have for JH is, if Chris Scott purchased units, would WC have to disclose that. The reason for asking this is that when WC took control it was said that CS had no relationship at all with WC. So this got me thinking maybe the web is a little more complicated than what was originally let on.

seamisty · 5 September 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Duped said:
FAYI: Anyone can submit a letter to AFR to correct the Author's article. www.afr.com/home/letter.aspx

Do it right away and it will make tomorrow's edition; should the editor accept the letter.

Breaker1 is going to try sort it out tomorrow or Monday as he has other committments today.Perhaps the QLD PIFI who have been so pedantic dotting i's and crossing t's have already sorted this gross misunderstanding out and notified the AFR of their inadequate reporting so they can maybe regain some credibility before other media outlets make a circus out of it. I believe others have been made aware of the discrepancy. Seamisty

seamisty · 5 September 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Quote Newwtrader::It seems common ground that when the shares commence trading it will be in the 10 - 20 c range::The question I have for JH is, if Chris Scott purchased units, would WC have to disclose that. The reason for asking this is that when WC took control it was said that CS had no relationship at all with WC. So this got me thinking maybe the web is a little more complicated than what was originally let on::::: At 10-20 cents they will be a bargain and it won't be just CS buying!!:grinsking

Duped · 5 September 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Newwwtrader, I'd like to also know if CS already has units in PIF. Page 52 of the 2007 annual report states Michael King's super fund has 42,443 units. Who else? MFS Management P/L got their 60M units out but what about other MFS entities?

All:
Two parts of the constitution leave me VERY exposed. Scare the h out of me. The right for WC to raise more capital and the right for WC to create different classes of units. What's stopping WC creating a special class of units to my detriment? All the risk is on ME, the 3 resolutions cover WC's risk exposure completely. What about investors like me? Where's the equity in this business relationship? And JH is saying that's the best offer. That's hard faced business I suppose.

Someone once told me that if both parties come away from a deal feeling ripped off then it's probably of fair deal. I can't seen WC complaining. Or are they?

I can't believe my advisor once had put 100% of my savings in this cr@p a few years back.

Burnt · 5 September 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Sorry, I don't understand the fuss about the "action group". I have read the articles in the GCBully and the Aust. and both clearly state that comments were made by members of the PIFI Initiative, "an action group". So what if PIFI is described as an action group. Get over it.

By the way, what is the objective of the PIF Action Group ? If Seamisty and Breaker1 are representatives of the group, then quite obviously the groups objective is to promote Wellingtons propositions. So why "action group"? -
is your "action" to discredit and demean anyone opposing Wellingtons propostitions ? If so, are you guys also entitled to the .25% commission being paid under Wellington's "buy votes" scheme ?

like2ski · 5 September 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

seamisty said:
I just had a ph. call from WC and there is no alternative to liquidation if they do not get the 75%, so it would be really good if the QLD PIFI would stop misleading the poor elderly investors into thinking there is a better alternative as a means to an end for them to acheive their ultimate aim of LIQUDATING THE FUND!!!!(orderly or otherwise)They will be like the lawyers RickH, and not personally guarantee anything. Their credibility is already out theutthedoor:Seamisty

Hi seamisty,
If you believe WC I will sell you some shares of the Harbor Bridge and the opera house as well !!!!

RickH · 5 September 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Duped said:
Newwwtrader, I'd like to also know if CS already has units in PIF. Page 52 of the 2007 annual report states Michael King's super fund has 42,443 units. Who else? MFS Management P/L got their 60M units out but what about other MFS entities?

All:
Two parts of the constitution leave me VERY exposed. Scare the h out of me. The right for WC to raise more capital and the right for WC to create different classes of units. What's stopping WC creating a special class of units to my detriment? All the risk is on ME, the 3 resolutions cover WC's risk exposure completely. What about investors like me? Where's the equity in this business relationship? And JH is saying that's the best offer. That's hard faced business I suppose.

Someone once told me that if both parties come away from a deal feeling ripped off then it's probably of fair deal. I can't seen WC complaining. Or are they?

I can't believe my advisor once had put 100% of my savings in this cr@p a few years back.

Hi Duped,
Neither can I believe that an adviser would recommend 100% into anything.
Regards, Rick:couch

Jadel · 5 September 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Duped said:
Newwwtrader, I'd like to also know if CS already has units in PIF. Page 52 of the 2007 annual report states Michael King's super fund has 42,443 units. Who else? MFS Management P/L got their 60M units out but what about other MFS entities?

All:
Two parts of the constitution leave me VERY exposed. Scare the h out of me. The right for WC to raise more capital and the right for WC to create different classes of units. What's stopping WC creating a special class of units to my detriment? All the risk is on ME, the 3 resolutions cover WC's risk exposure completely. What about investors like me? Where's the equity in this business relationship? And JH is saying that's the best offer. That's hard faced business I suppose.

Someone once told me that if both parties come away from a deal feeling ripped off then it's probably of fair deal. I can't seen WC complaining. Or are they?

I can't believe my advisor once had put 100% of my savings in this cr@p a few years back.

Duped
WC has all but confirmed their will be a Capital Raising so i can assure you that your fears are well founded

BootsnAll · 5 September 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

Breaker1, you deserve the credit for initiating this forum. However, I cannot understand your fixation about PIF ACTION GROUP. The whole thing commenced quite a while back and then NOTHING happened. There was no national committee, no treasurer, no secretary, NOTHING! Action Group, what action????? In legal sense PIF ACTION GROUP doesn't even exist.

Thank God some of the Queenslandpeople got off their butt and using THEIR INITIATIVE & their own money (some had very little left) did something concrete, like incorporating PIFI, getting independent legal advice etc.
JH did a great job at the forums, two of which I attended. Most people walked away feeling warm and fuzzy, because 'Momma was going to fix it'. I don't know how many investors took the trouble to read the fine print of the amended constitution. THERE IS NOTHING IN IT FOR THE INVESTORS, except of a small payout this year which really is only a small return of capital.

As for Jenny's promises, the purchase of the Harbour Bridge seems more attractive.

like2ski · 5 September 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

newwwtrader said:
After not having been on here for 18 hours and logging back on this afternoon and reading the posts, all I have to say is, is it any wonder that WC has been able to take advantage of this matter.

Like, who really cares if it was the PIFI or the PIF Action Group. That is merely one line in the article. Anyone who would have taken the time to read a bit more would have realised what group it was. The articles in the Australian and the GC Bulletin left no doubt as to who it was. So I think it is fair to say that possibly in reporting the article the AFR may have made a small error, as I would assume the same media release would have been sent to all.

But anyway, none of that really matters. The main points that I gained from the various articles were these:

It seems common ground that when the shares commence trading it will be in the 10 - 20 c range

JH has said the PIF "faces" liquidation in January. "Facing" something is entirely different to being placed in liquidation. IF, the no vote is successful, liquidation can be avoided by other measures!!!

The main thing that I got out of it was this little pearler "Estimates are that units will be priced between 10c and 20c when they list, sparking claims that Ms Hutson or her associates could scoop up units at a fraction of their real value.

But Ms Hutson yesterday denied this.

The question I have for JH is, if Chris Scott purchased units, would WC have to disclose that. The reason for asking this is that when WC took control it was said that CS had no relationship at all with WC. So this got me thinking maybe the web is a little more complicated than what was originally let on.

Hi newwwtrader,
I fully agree with your sentiments regarding some of the pedantic posters on here. They are worrying about minor details and not giving due consideration to the MAIN ISSUES?? (they can't see the wood for the trees LOL...)
OTHERS.
As for the childish attacks on the PIFI, people should take a cold shower and think rationally before opening their mouths, or type on their keyboards!!
At least the PIF has taken the initiative, obtained legal/professional advice in a sensible structured way, to try and help ALL UNIT HOLDERS which is more than can be said about some of the ranters and ravers on here. We should all unite for our common benefit rather than taking cheap shots at each other??
You are all welcome to join and participate in the PIFI actions, and there is NOTHING SINISTER about their motives. PLEASE WAKE UP and get a LIFE!!!!
It would be advisable for all to get a copy of the "legal opinion", study it carefully,arrive at your own conclusions rather than shooting off and make unsubstantiated accusations.

JohnH · 5 September 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

like2ski said:
Hi newwwtrader,
I fully agree with your sentiments regarding some of the pedantic posters on here. They are worrying about minor details and not giving due consideration to the MAIN ISSUES?? (they can't see the wood for the trees LOL...)
OTHERS.
As for the childish attacks on the PIFI, people should take a cold shower and think rationally before opening their mouths, or type on their keyboards!!
At least the PIF has taken the initiative, obtained legal/professional advice in a sensible structured way, to try and help ALL UNIT HOLDERS which is more than can be said about some of the ranters and ravers on here. We should all unite for our common benefit rather than taking cheap shots at each other??
You are all welcome to join and participate in the PIFI actions, and there is NOTHING SINISTER about their motives. PLEASE WAKE UP and get a LIFE!!!!
It would be advisable for all to get a copy of the "legal opinion", study it carefully,arrive at your own conclusions rather than shooting off and make unsubstantiated accusations.

I would consider joining if someone can answer my concerns in post #2318

like2ski · 5 September 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

JohnH said:
I would consider joining if someone can answer my concerns in post #2318

Hi JohnH,
As far as I am aware no one here is qualified to answer those questions. You would need to join, read the legal opinion and/or talk to the Legal/Commercial experts.
Generally and logically however, who would you place your trust in, WC or an independent adviser who has nothing to gain (no personal interest in the fund) and is assisting for a fee only.
As reported in the press today the lawyers have stated that there are numerous errors and breaches of corporate law in the WC documentation!!
Can we trust them?????

seamisty · 5 September 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

I have had my say and was going to let this rest but I just received a phone call from a Sydney Action Group member who was quite concerned that certain posters were indicating the lack of initiative being taken by the AG founded by Breaker1. This unit holder informed me he contacted the very same solicitor, Kalinda Cobby, now representing the Qld PIFI, many months before the QLD PIFI was even formed!! MS Cobby even attended the Sydney WC investor forum with the Sydney AG member and stayed to the end of the meeting. After the forum, Sydney PIF AG was advised that "we could do a lot worse than having Jenny Hutson and WC handling this fund". She said "Jenny Hutson sounded quite capable and apart from a few minor things not being quite legally correct, her intentions seemed honourable".She then advised that all she would do would be to form an incorporated body to have some sort of structure ONCE JH gets the vote to monitor her performance and ensure the best possible outcome for investors in the coming years. Kalinda Cobby has not come out and said anything untoward regarding WC, she only mentions a few mistakes in the EM under her interpretaion of Corporate Law..no mention of her plan being flawed! So this advice was taken on board, and in the absence of a better alternative without risking the liquidation of the Fund, the majority had decided to let WC demonstrate her ability or lack of, knowing they had the option to take action at a later date if it was needed, as per advice from Kalinda Cobby, who put in a lot of time for the AG in its inception. She was not paid for her advice and her professional opinion was highly respected and appreciated at that time. Regards, Seamisty

seamisty · 5 September 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

like2ski said:
Hi JohnH,
As far as I am aware no one here is qualified to answer those questions. You would need to join, read the legal opinion and/or talk to the Legal/Commercial experts.
Generally and logically however, who would you place your trust in, WC or an independent adviser who has nothing to gain (no personal interest in the fund) and is assisting for a fee only.
As reported in the press today the lawyers have stated that there are numerous errors and breaches of corporate law in the WC documentation!!
Can we trust them?????

Like2ski, I have been so busy today I must have missed the reference to breaches of corporate law, I can only find:::In an offer to investors allegedly riddled with errors;;;and;;;"explanatory memorandum" was "complex" and contained more than a dozen errors. When I spoke with WC today, I asked about this and was assured they are administrative errors, nothing more sinister. Seamisty

JohnH · 5 September 2008

Re: Octaviar MFS Premium Income Fund PIF

seamisty said:
Like2ski, I have been so busy today I must have missed the reference to breaches of corporate law, I can only find:::In an offer to investors allegedly riddled with errors;;;and;;;"explanatory memorandum" was "complex" and contained more than a dozen errors. When I spoke with WC today, I asked about this and was assured they are administrative errors, nothing more sinister. Seamisty

Hi Seamisty. If I sign the PIF Initiative application form to get the answers to my questions, I have to pay 100 bucks, agree to “comply fully with the requirements of the Association’s Rules” - wonder what they are!!!

Wellington Capital PIF/Octaviar (MFS) PIF

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