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Was today a strange day or was it just me?????

Smurf1976 said:
If we are going to ration oil consumption then there goes the prospect of the price going to the moon.
Price of motor vehicle fuel, or price of oil, or price of something else? Whatever, rationing is not the same thing as price control.

Government intervention, socialism, is aimed at least partly at avoiding a price shock in this sort of situation.
Errr... socialism? Anyway, if we're into peak oil or even just a super spike, what kind of intervention could Australian governments do that would avoid price shocks?

I've seen reports like this too. They make me think that in a year or two "high" petrol prices will seem like a really good problem to have.

I seem to be getting more bearish by the minute. Maybe I should just go to bed.

Ghoti
 
el_ninj0 said:
In the event this does happen, would it be best not to have anything in the market at the time? Or which would be the best sector to have your investments in if there is to be a oil shortage?

Materials? Maybe it's time to start some serious study of oil inputs to manufacturing. I think I asked here once before if anyone knows what proportion of oil goes into plastics, rather than fuel? I don't know the answer to that, and I don't know enough about recycling and recovery for plastics to have a clue about the impact of super-high oil prices on them and on competing products. Anyone???

Ghoti
 
It's worth mentioning that OPEC's ability to reduce oil prices as they are quoted in the media is indirect at best.

Without going into the specifics, the price quoted is generally for light sweet crude. This fuel is the easiest and cheapest to process into fuel. Oil is graded as either light or heavy, sweet or sour. It's sweetness has to do with the level of sulfur impurities and light/heavy has to do with viscosity (Light is like petrol, heavy is like tar). Most of OPEC's reserves are heavier, sourer varieties than the light sweet crude quoted in the media. This oil trades at a discount to the light sweet crude.

The good news is that heavy, sourer varieties can be refined into an endproduct of the same quality axs the light sweet crude. The bad news is that it requires significant investment to enable an existing refinery to process these more corrosive/thicker oils.

The world is refining heavy/sour oils at current production limits, or near to. New capacity to refine this oil is several years away. No matter how much more oil OPEC pump, the quoted price is going to be comparitively unscathed.
 

Thanks Doctor J, nice informative post. It makes me think that the oil could easily hit $100 per barrel in the next two years as some analysts are predicting.

Daniel

PS Is that Patrick Ewing's signature on the ball instead of Doctor J's?
 
Another thing to consider is that China is implementing tougher emission limits on their fuels come June or July this year in time for the Olympics.

For their refineries to comply with this, they'll either need to carry out significant upgrades or buy better quality oils. I'd expect this to put an upward pressure on Light Sweet Crude prices from the middle of the year until new production facilities come online.

PS. Pretty sure its Sir Julius...
 
I know its bad form to reply to yourself, but I just came across this and thought it might prove interesting.

 
Under IEA rules, during an emergency the Australian Government is required to limit oil consumption to a level which matches Australia's allocation.

The market continues in the context of price but physical allocations to individual countries are set by an international agreement, not traders or oil companies. This level would by definition be below business as usual consumption.

Exactly how the government would meet its international obligations (and we are a net importer so there is no "opt out" choice) is open to debate but all recognised methods of rationing are fundamentally based on socialist principles rather than capitalism. We all suffer together.

The aviodance of the market sorting it out (higher prices lowering demand) is the specific purpose of introducing rationing in the first place. The reasons why this is considered desirable are fundamentally social. High prices are socially and politically unacceptable, hence the pressure on government to "do something".

It's much like health. Australians expect socialisation of health care costs. Nobody expects to pay a million dollars for treatment even if that's what it costs. We accept restrictions (waiting lists) in order to limit the cost. Likewise we accept traffic jams to avoid the cost of new roads, standing on buses and trains to keep fares down and so on.

Looking at international historic examples, expect something like the following:

Ban all cars on Sundays, fuel coupons, shorter working week, enforce restricted shopping hours, prohibition of certain air routes where alternatives are feasible, "odds and evens" system based on registration plates, recording of annual mileage linked to some form of tax penalty and so on.

As for the price, that's a difficult question but remember that governments would be the major market player along with OPEC. Not governments directly buying oil, but government having absolute control over the level of crude oil demand.

Whilst not by any means certain, it is prpbable IMO that governments would pursue a moderate price scenario. Why triple the cost of oil to your country for a mere 1 or 2% volume increase? Governments think exactly like that with roads, water, electricity and so on so I can see no reason why they wouldn't with oil. It's very typical of government thinking on just about any subject

Personally I would prefer that the markets be left to sort it out, but history and actions to date suggest that is unlikely.
 

Sorry to quote myself but it does look like an elliot wave five and it'll only be downhill from here.

Shorter term trading will seem to be the GO from here on in.
 
These posts have been very informative. Thanks.

I have a question.
What happens to property values if indeed we are in wave 5?

R.
 
Rafa said:
These posts have been very informative. Thanks.

I have a question.
What happens to property values if indeed we are in wave 5?

R.

I think property value is more affected by economic factors rather than the stock market although property in my view, would be subjective like the stock market. ie All based on consumer confidence. I think that we are heading into a recession and property is going to drop. I have been speaking to a lot of developers who have been around a long time to see their views. They already see that there will be a property crash in about 12 months. They talked about the early 90's when houses in Mosman were selling for 4 million and the following year, it was selling for 1 million. I don't think the crash is going to be that large but a much needed correction is due for Sydney.

 
Forgot to add that a lot of the suppliers to Developer's are trying to get payment up front.
 
There seems to be lots of anecdotal evidence emerging that property prices are falling. No absolute proof in terms of annual price change statistics, but the signs are becoming rather strong in some locations.

Only yesterday I noticed that a Hobart suburban real estate agent had dropped its "properties wanted in this area up to..." price by $50,000 compared to the level it's been stuck at for months. Not proof, but more evidence that prices may be slipping. Likewise the stories of 40% discounts on expensive properties in Sydney, slow sales in most states and so on.

I'll keep this brief since this is a stocks forum not a property one but if you want more info then you can check your own suburb at http://www.commbank.com.au/propertyvalueguide/
 
DTM said:
Forgot to add that a lot of the suppliers to Developer's are trying to get payment up front.
So suppliers must be getting worried. More anecdotal evidence.
 
thanks for those responses. the current property market is well overpriced and should fall. But I read on this thread before that during a wave 5, the best assets to hold are "real" assets, eg gold, as opposed to just numbers in a bank account.

Is property considered a real asset, becuase if it is, and cash devalues, then property in terms of cash prices will go up!

or have i got myself completely confused here???

R.
 
Here's what history tells us about RE prices at the end of a wave 5
 

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Amazing... that is the chart i was after...

it looks like it took the best part of 2 decades for property to come back... but shares took the best part of 4 decades.

Thanks for that WayneL... much appreciated.
 
XJO (S&P top 200) hit a high of 4030 within an hour of trading and its reversed 40 points at 12.30pm.

It doesn't look like its slowing down, could be freefall.
 
The wave of profit downgrades is now driving the fear factor across the board.
 
Hmmm.

Ive sold out of all positions from around 10 am.

Im happy to sit and watch.
Taxman will be happy thats the downside.
But if it keeps falling that wont be an issue.
 
Here we go again. XJO down 27 points by 12pm.

Its going to be free fall again.
 
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