Victorian Fires

[IFocus]

I've been out of the loop for a while, but what happened to back burning during winter?

When l was growing up, back burning used to happen all the time. Not so much now?

Has been talked about quite a bit.

NSW (assume same for other states) cut budgets affecting the numbers available to do any burn offs.

Long term drought has increased the risk hugely and the drying trend has narrowed the window to carry this out.

Lots of finger pointing at Greenies only problem is they have never been in government any where on main land Australia and certainly didnt control cutting the budgets.

Current extreme early season hot weather systems sweeping across Australia (unprecedented) would negate fuel reduction programs anyway IMHO, Macca might argue other wise. I think it would reduce fire intensity but the fires would still be beyond control once you have strong winds and + 40 degree heat its all over..

Unfortunately this current scenario is our future imagine the extremes once we reach +2 degrees C higher and the drying trend continues such as the SW corner of WA.

Once aspect of this year is the burning of rain forest totally unprecedented not suppose to happen.

 

[Smurf1976]

Lots of finger pointing at Greenies only problem is they have never been in government any where on main land Australia and certainly didnt control cutting the budgets.

I agree in a strict legal sense they haven't been in government but the Greens (as in the political party) and conservationists (as distinct from the Greens) in general do claim to have been effective at various things by means of protest and preference votes etc. That's no conspiracy, it's a claim often made by prominent Greens politicians and other environmentalists over an extended period.

The argument that they can't be blamed, due to not being in government, thus rests upon the notion that government should use a "whatever it takes" approach to bust through any physical protest blockade and get whatever done such that those opposing would never in practice have stopped anything.

Now I can't see that ending too well given that it comes down to either mass arrests, which has been done on occasion in the past and not unreasonably seen as an assault on freedom of expression, or a few deaths as the trucks or bulldozers go through or the fires are lit or whatever.

Note that I'm taking a neutral stance as such there, playing devil's advocate basically, and I don't advocate driving over or shooting anyone but it's one of the other. Can't really claim to be effective via protests etc but then deny responsibility for the outcome and say government should have stopped you from being effective unless you're asking for force to be used against you in order to achieve that.

My personal thought is that the environmental side has actually answered the question better than anyone and it applies to most of these issues.

Do what the science says.

Exactly. Put all these issues such as fire management, water supply, energy and so on in the hands of real experts across the relevant fields and leave them to it. Keep all politicians from One Nation through to the Greens and everyone in between right out of it.

To that end, if it were up to me then I'd assemble some sort of Commission staffed by an assortment of people across the range of scientific fields from biology and botany through to civil and power engineering and everything in between and with some sort of chief scientific group as its board of directors.

Leave them to sort these problems out with the only mandate being that comprehensive solutions are required. Eg a solution to CO2 emissions must keep the lights on reliably. A solution to water supply can't involve drowning areas of legitimate high conservation value. Etc and make sure the organisation is equipped to fully assess everything "in house" thus removing external biases.

Removal of political bias by means of giving parliament nothing more than a "yes / no" vote, no option to pick things apart or modify the details, and all internal reports and information to be made public online.

If they tell us after considering all the relevant issues that we need a fleet of water bombing helicopters and to train however many ADF personnel to professional firefighting standards whilst building another dam to shore up Sydney's water supply well then that's what should happen.

 

[sptrawler]

I've been out of the loop for a while, but what happened to back burning during winter?

When l was growing up, back burning used to happen all the time. Not so much now?

It does appear to be business as usual, who can get the most teflon on, so that none of the $ hit sticks.
So as usual the problem will go away unanswered, because the extensive out of control burns, have saved anyone having to try and get permission for controlled burns.
Untill next time.
Just my opinion.

 

[IFocus]

I agree in a strict legal sense they haven't been in government but the Greens (as in the political party) and conservationists (as distinct from the Greens) in general do claim to have been effective at various things by means of protest and preference votes etc. That's no conspiracy, it's a claim often made by prominent Greens politicians and other environmentalists over an extended period.

My understanding is that the Greens have long advocated for prescribed burns

I know years ago here in WA there was a blue about CALM burning off around endangered bird nesting sites but the biggest complaints came from smoke being dumped on Perth.

I honestly dont think its going to make much difference in the current weather conditions and given the size / area on fire I would doubt (IMHO) that a fuel reduction program would cover the total area.

Then there the fact rainforest is burning you cannot prescribe burn that.

Tree changes have also changed the dynamic seems more people living in forested areas.

Anyway good news more fire crews survive being caught flame overs

 

[macca]

These are the type of people that need to be listened to, they have made incredible gains in the sustainable conservation of wildlife.

There main weapons are eco burning (management by fire) and feral free zones

https://www.australianwildlife.org/our-work/fire-management-program/

 

[moXJO]

The march of the Gumtree is a big factor that is often overlooked. And a lot have marched right into rainforest territory. They are a bastard of a tree when it comes to fire. And the one thing that thrives after one.

 

[macca]

I've been out of the loop for a while, but what happened to back burning during winter?

When l was growing up, back burning used to happen all the time. Not so much now?

Hi DB,

You have been out of the loop for sure, to refresh your memory, in winter we used to "burn off" or in PC speak, we hazard reduced.

If a fire has got away we may "back burn" within its expected path so that it stops when it reaches the bit we just back burnt.

All quite simple really but we need to stop being so damned arrogant and accept that nature is far more powerful than us and take precautions in winter while we can

 

[Smurf1976]

The march of the Gumtree is a big factor that is often overlooked. And a lot have marched right into rainforest territory. They are a bastard of a tree when it comes to fire. And the one thing that thrives after one.

Commercial forestry replacing mixed species forests with eucalypt monocultures is another driver of the same outcome.

That my local council allows me to remove any tree close to the house with the exception of two species, one of which is any eucalypt, is a crazy idea. Of all species you wouldn’t want right next to a house that’s the one they protect.

 

[Smurf1976]

My understanding is that the Greens have long advocated for prescribed burns

I think it’s important to distinguish the Greens, that is the political party, from anyone who simply campaigns on some random environmental issue. In the same way as some worker arguing with a boss isn’t Labor and a random group of farmers aren’t the Nationals and so on.

The Greens may well have supported burning but others have certainly opposed it on “cute furry animals” sort of environmental grounds or on the basis of air pollution.

There’s quite a fuss being made elsewhere about Nowa Nowa in Victoria which has been hit by the fires.

First because protesters objected to a planned burn in the same area recently.

Second because the relevant authorities caved in and cancelled almost all of the burn except for a tiny little bit.

Third and perhaps most seriously because the ABC is alleged to have removed the story about the protests and the burn being stopped from its website once the fire broke out. A cover up. I don’t know how true that all is but others are certainly making the claim.

Now that’s not the Greens in the same way as any random union is not Labor but it is a case of environmental opposition to burning which has ended badly.

Rules stopping farmers clearing between roads and their property boundaries are another example.

 

[DB008]

Yeah, reminds me of this...

Fined for illegal clearing, family now feel vindicated​

They were labelled law breakers, fined $50,000 and left emotionally and financially drained.

But seven years after the Sheahans bulldozed trees to make a fire break — an act that got them dragged before a magistrate and penalised — they feel vindicated. Their house is one of the few in Reedy Creek, Victoria, still standing.

Mr Sheahan is still angry about his prosecution, which cost him $100,000 in fines and legal fees. The council's planning laws allow trees to be cleared only when they are within six metres of a house. Mr Sheahan cleared trees up to 100 metres away from his house.

"The council stood up in court and made us to look like the worst, wanton environmental vandals on the earth. We've got thousands of trees on our property. We cleared about 247," he said.​

He said the royal commission on the fires must result in changes to planning laws to allow land owners to clear trees and vegetation that pose a fire risk.

"Both the major parties are pandering to the Greens for preferences and that is what is causing the problem. Common sense isn't that common these days," Mr Sheahan said.

Melbourne University bushfire expert Kevin Tolhurst gave evidence to help the Sheahan family in their legal battle with the council.​

https://www.smh.com.au/national/fin...family-now-feel-vindicated-20090212-85bd.html​

 

[IFocus]

Yeah, reminds me of this...

Fined for illegal clearing, family now feel vindicated​

They were labelled law breakers, fined $50,000 and left emotionally and financially drained.

But seven years after the Sheahans bulldozed trees to make a fire break — an act that got them dragged before a magistrate and penalised — they feel vindicated. Their house is one of the few in Reedy Creek, Victoria, still standing.

Mr Sheahan is still angry about his prosecution, which cost him $100,000 in fines and legal fees. The council's planning laws allow trees to be cleared only when they are within six metres of a house. Mr Sheahan cleared trees up to 100 metres away from his house.

"The council stood up in court and made us to look like the worst, wanton environmental vandals on the earth. We've got thousands of trees on our property. We cleared about 247," he said.​

He said the royal commission on the fires must result in changes to planning laws to allow land owners to clear trees and vegetation that pose a fire risk.

"Both the major parties are pandering to the Greens for preferences and that is what is causing the problem. Common sense isn't that common these days," Mr Sheahan said.

Melbourne University bushfire expert Kevin Tolhurst gave evidence to help the Sheahan family in their legal battle with the council.​

https://www.smh.com.au/national/fin...family-now-feel-vindicated-20090212-85bd.html​

I was aware of that story recon they got screwed, even with a 50 mt break around the house they still had to fight long and hard to save the house remember seeing how burnt the place was but still standing.

 

[Smurf1976]

"Both the major parties are pandering to the Greens for preferences and that is what is causing the problem. Common sense isn't that common these days," Mr Sheahan said.

What's needed is a scientific approach and the removal of politics from all this.

No elected person should be making these sorts of decisions, it's a job for experts based on science not some damn politician of whatever persuasion.

 

[qldfrog]

I was aware of that story recon they got screwed, even with a 50 mt break around the house they still had to fight long and hard to save the house remember seeing how burnt the place was but still standing.

So what is exactly your point? A family managed to save their house vs being pictured evacuating from a beach and they did not have a point?
Another key dump element always hammered by the ABC is that the season to light the fire is too short

Here in qld in 2011, brisbane was flooding,none of our flood cycle year..so 9 years ago every place could have seen burn off done, not a doubt: yet nothing in my area...
The other issue is RFBs are volunteers so with people out of farming, we can only do burns on basically Saturdays to mop up on sundays
Indeed our windows have reduced to 1/7th of the Aborigines or farmers
Never seen this mentioned but sure CC...

 

[DB008]

What's needed is a scientific approach and the removal of politics from all this.

No elected person should be making these sorts of decisions, it's a job for experts based on science not some damn politician of whatever persuasion.

Totally agree. But it won't happen

 

[IFocus]

So what is exactly your point? .

I guess how many people can clear 50 mts around their house to start with I couldn't?

The fire conditions for that story were bad the current ones are beyond extreme that 50 mt would not have held you have towns burning for Christ sake its all unrepresented.

As for CC what happens when we get hotter what will the extremes be then as for the current situation this is the current weather patterns


"The last couple of months have seen a triple whammy of climate factors leading to widespread death and destruction right across the country.

The combined impacts from one of the strong positive Indian Ocean Dipole (IOD) events on record, a Sudden Stratospheric Warming (SSW) event and flow on strong negative Southern Annular Mode (SAM) events have resulted in 2019 being the hottest and driest year for Australia on record.

In short, the lack of moisture from the Indian Ocean and lift in the westerly storm track towards the country from the south has brought hot, dry weather - and devastating fire conditions.

One additional flow on effect of the strong positive IOD event was that it blocked the development of the monsoon trough across the north of the country, effectively holding it at bay until now. The onset of the monsoon usually occurs late October and into early November, bringing enhanced rainfall across northern Australia."


But look lets all pray for Scotty from marketing Smoko it must surely be a horrible time for him.

 

[moXJO]

Fuel load, lazy councils, tree management, drought all played a factor. Blaming it on that idiot scomo is blame misplaced. It also ignores the reality.
Australia states and local gov got lazy. Fire breaks were needed well before.

 

[qldfrog]

I guess how many people can clear 50 mts around their house to start with I couldn't?

The fire conditions for that story were bad the current ones are beyond extreme that 50 mt would not have held you have towns burning for Christ sake its all unrepresented.

As for CC what happens when we get hotter what will the extremes be then as for the current situation this is the current weather patterns


"The last couple of months have seen a triple whammy of climate factors leading to widespread death and destruction right across the country.

The combined impacts from one of the strong positive Indian Ocean Dipole (IOD) events on record, a Sudden Stratospheric Warming (SSW) event and flow on strong negative Southern Annular Mode (SAM) events have resulted in 2019 being the hottest and driest year for Australia on record.

In short, the lack of moisture from the Indian Ocean and lift in the westerly storm track towards the country from the south has brought hot, dry weather - and devastating fire conditions.

One additional flow on effect of the strong positive IOD event was that it blocked the development of the monsoon trough across the north of the country, effectively holding it at bay until now. The onset of the monsoon usually occurs late October and into early November, bringing enhanced rainfall across northern Australia."


But look lets all pray for Scotty from marketing Smoko it must surely be a horrible time for him.

Sure, read the abc, hottest on record..well actually 1910
Why not 1900 etc etc
It is dry it is severe..that country has f***ed it a big way, but just wondering how it will be if as in the 1000's it become warm enough for Vikings to grow cereal in Greenland, as they did then..
Oh yeah i know we will blame the liberals..how dare they
It is getting warmer and we need to act properly this includes fire break, i have the space to get that clearance, but i can not
Once the forest burns i am gone..
The only thing i can do is maintain the existing fire break..in all illegality but cutting regrowth there and slashing
When villages burn, they burn because no one is defending them and they can not because the whole Forest next door is having a treetop fire bombarding them.
Fires should not and would not reach tree top with proper fire management.once it is doing it, be it next door or 50km away, not much can help except airplanes we do not have.
One of the few comforting news is that actually not that many houses were burnt.so it means people and firies did save many..no the towns are not razed..think about it..total population vs houses lost
Do not take me wrong, terrible for the ones lost, but it does mean many many more were saved..how why?
Will this be part of the postmortem studies?
Were house occupied, equipped, cleared, why this one and not that one...
Out of the media light, into facts...
Experts required yes but remember our regulations are drawn by people in the capital city department, experts... Will need common sense, real on the ground experience more than experts on TV or here , creating their own income streams
I definitively do not want any of the so called climate scientists involved, nor an armchair rfs headquarter employee.plenty of on the ground experience here, my own included in a very small way

 

[chiff]

The building codes now need to be enforced to make homes more resilient in times of bushfire.I remember one old house burning at a fire we went to.The house was 300 metres from where we were waiting for the front to come out of a pine forest (stupid) What I am saying is that some houses are indefensible.The whole regime of building in the wild woods needs to be looked at.National Parks have not been valued and professional staff with paid help are thin on the ground.These are repositories for the future of flora and fauna,not to be underfunded and blamed for helping fires spread.Maybe things will change-but I doubt it.

 

[chiff]

I was aware of that story recon they got screwed, even with a 50 mt break around the house they still had to fight long and hard to save the house remember seeing how burnt the place was but still standing.

Maybe shires or council will stop giving out building permits for people that want to live on their bush block?Especially if they have large damages awarded against them.The rates may not be worth it.

 

[moXJO]

We need management solutions. The current screeching about climate change from the press is a distraction from the realities of what needs to be done. We can reduce emissions to zero tomorrow and Australia will still burn if it isn't managed properly. People in cities have this false sense of safety because we reduce our carbon emissions by 5%. Ignoring that management solutions and adaptation are still needed.
Food/water will be the next big crisis that needed to be sorted years back. Heat issues will be another one. This all needs to be addressed now.

Carbon forAustralia is a long way down the list. And the reality is it will do bugger all. The climate won't stop changing. World action is needed. But we are going to get caught out by the changes before that happens.