Victorian Fires

Garpal Gumnut · 19 February 2009

Calliope said:
One of the few positive outcomes from the fires is that the spotlight is now being turned on the environmental vandals. (ie the greenies)

The Green lobby will face some hard questions that will need to be answered at the forthcoming Royal Commission into the Victorian bushfires.

The warped policies of Nillumbik Council should be exposed and never repeated.

Backburning is essential in these high fuel areas and ideological banning of fuel reduction, burning and tree felling should be condemned and dispatched to the godbothering gaia brain-dead style-bin from which it arose.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/this-burning-issue-of-life-and-death-20090218-8bee.html?page=-1

gg

pilots · 19 February 2009

GG, You can't cut the trees down, them dole bludgers have to have some thing to chain them self to.

kincella · 19 February 2009

the question about bunkers, radiant heat, and air sucked out of everything....
I was getting excited about the bunkers last week, not only for the people, but for animals as well...even wildlife
family member last night said since radiant heat only travels in a straight line...so you can put the bunker underground and all will be safe...
that is assuming the underground structure can support the walls and roof and the mound of earth on top...and there is a big cleared area so that nothing can fall on the entrance..or exit...
my idea is to have an underground haven...but it is not sealed, there is, for example, a huge concrete pipe but it is open both ends....that ones for the people...so in this case no worries about the oxygen ????

for the animals I would have the container terminal underground, with structural supports for the earth on top....again open both ends....you teach the horses or cows to go underground as a normal part of life...so that when a fire is coming...going underground is not a problem for them....I would feed them down there on a regular basis..
so next question is...can the oxygen be sucked out from underground.....
now I just watched a video...think it was the bloke with the bunker next to his concrete water tank....L shaped entrance...and they watched the fire from inside the bunker...so that might answer my question

another professor is talking about herding people into underground car parks...

http://mybiz.optus.com.au/channel/tvandvideo/tvandvideo_news_abc/tvandvideo_news_abc_block/486

Smurf1976 · 19 February 2009

daisy said:
What has happened in Victoria is horrible. The loss of life is staggering. I truly hope that (one way or another) something constructive will come out of this so that even though there will probably be future fires, no more lives will be lost.

I too am hoping we'll be able to avoid loss of life in the future. But sadly, that we didn't learn now to avoid this following the events of Ash Wednesday (Vic / SA 1983) or Black Tuesday (Tas 1967) makes me think we'll repeat the loss of life.

Both of those two previous events resulted in many deaths - 62 in the Tas fires and I think it was about 75 in the Vic / SA fires. Sadly that wasn't enough to stop us building houses surrounded by trees then failing to carry out proper fuel reduction burning when it's safe. Now we have a disaster bigger than those two put together in terms of lives lost.

daisy · 19 February 2009

Smurf1976 said:
I too am hoping we'll be able to avoid loss of life in the future. But sadly, that we didn't learn now to avoid this following the events of Ash Wednesday (Vic / SA 1983) or Black Tuesday (Tas 1967) makes me think we'll repeat the loss of life.

Both of those two previous events resulted in many deaths - 62 in the Tas fires and I think it was about 75 in the Vic / SA fires. Sadly that wasn't enough to stop us building houses surrounded by trees then failing to carry out proper fuel reduction burning when it's safe. Now we have a disaster bigger than those two put together in terms of lives lost.

1967 62 lives lost
1983 75 lives lost
2009 roughly 200 lives lost.

It's getting worse ...not better
While I’ve carried on a bit about the problems we are having up here at the moment, I have also tried to say that on a relative scale, they pale into insignificance compared to Victoria.
Nobody up here would dispute that. Which is why many up this way are donating their own disaster relief grants to Victorian appeals. But the pattern that is emerging is one that could well mean that unless a more pro-active stance is taken, there is no guarantee that such a national out-pouring of compassion will be forthcoming in the future.
Please do not interpret this post as an attempt to blame the victim. But the issues that are emerging do leave many of us with questions.
For example, if Vic gov’t is so crippled by the greens regarding fuel loads, why did they not make other provisions regarding the safety of settlement in these areas e.g. building codes, better warning signals, more fire fighters, communal safe areas, etc...

Julia · 19 February 2009

daisy said:
Nobody up here would dispute that. Which is why many up this way are donating their own disaster relief grants to Victorian appeals. But the pattern that is emerging is one that could well mean that unless a more pro-active stance is taken, there is no guarantee that such a national out-pouring of compassion will be forthcoming in the future.
Please do not interpret this post as an attempt to blame the victim. But the issues that are emerging do leave many of us with questions.

I don't think anyone would interpret your comments as blaming anyone, Daisy.
I agree that many will have the same questions.

The generosity of spirit from FNQ people, in such a mess with the overwhelming floods, is pretty amazing imo.

Btw, how is it up there now? Has the rain stopped? Water draining away?
It must be awful. I do feel for the people who have been cut off for so long.

daisy · 19 February 2009

Hi Julia,
Where I live in Townsville, there has been isolated problems. King tides on top of the rain meant houses in some areas were pretty badly affected. My own house is on high ground and personally we are O.K. (The snakes are a bit of a worry though)
Roads are a mess. Huge potholes everywhere and we can't get our car into carport because the back laneway is washed away.
Last week the supermarkets were empty of milk and meat (in particular) because that comes from further North and roads were blocked.
No big deal on the scale of things.

I used to live further North and that is where my heart is. And further North it is a different story. It takes a long while for flood waters to recede. Nothing can be done until that happens. Then it's time to clean up and assess the damage to infrastructure.

It is still bucketing down most nights and with talk of another cyclone/low within the next 3 weeks, the worry is that if flood waters have not cleared by then ....

numbercruncher · 20 February 2009

Im certain heads are going to roll in this royal commission .....

City firies 'banned' from bushfires

The CFA has been accused of blocking city firefighters from helping fight the horrific blazes that burnt Victoria and claimed at least 208 lives.

Leaked emails accuse Country Fire Authority (CFA) management of blocking Metropolitan Fire Brigade (MFB) and CFA professional firefighters, and incompetently handling the fires.

The United Firefighters Union (UFU) will tell the royal commission into the fires that the CFA panicked and was ill-prepared despite knowing conditions would be the worst in Victoria's history.

The taxpayer-funded firefighters, who are better trained than volunteers, say overseas and interstate crews have been flown in while up to 1,200 of them were available but have sat around during, and since, the savage blazes of February 7.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/754565/city-firies-banned-from-bushfires

Aussiejeff · 20 February 2009

numbercruncher said:
Im certain heads are going to roll in this royal commission .....

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/754565/city-firies-banned-from-bushfires

This is a disgraceful state of affairs and shows just how incompetent, uncaring and negligent the government and certain state fire "authorities" have been with regard to the required level of fire disaster preparedness and safety that should be have been offered to all Victorians. :angry:

It's a disgusting revelation and won't help the fragile emotional state of many of the victims and their relatives either. I agree, heads MUST roll this time and a single over-arching State (or even Federal) Fire Authority should steamroll these bickering, self-interested groups into one cohesive body of fire fighting assets with only ONE Commander.

Then again, these imperatives have been swept under various gummint carpets before. Will this time be any different?

Here too...

A paid CFA firefighter said he was one of about six professionals who sat doing nothing at a station in Melbourne's outer north when the fire started.

"We listened to the events, including guys getting burnt out, but we were not deployed," he said. "We contacted the duty officers and said: 'We are here.' I don't think they knew.

"There are 200 (CFA) career firefighters who are disgusted about it but too fearful to put pen to paper or stand in front of a camera over it because of their careers," he said.

Another firefighter from near Geelong said professional firefighters were prevented from joining the fight.

He said CFA management wrongly thought that no professional firefighters were available.

http://www.theage.com.au/national/cfa-didnt-want-us-city-crews-20090219-8co5.html

Calliope · 20 February 2009

Aussiejeff said:
This is a disgraceful state of affairs and shows just how incompetent, uncaring and negligent the government and certain state fire "authorities" have been with regard to the required level of fire disaster preparedness and safety that should be have been offered to all Victorians. :angry:

In the 7.30 Report last night, it showed that Canberra, our most left-leaning city, has learned valuable lessons from their 2003 fire disaster. Including regular fuel reductions programs in the colder months.

http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/

kincella · 20 February 2009

Canberra... a huge clearing to separate them from the pine forest next door....every house has its own sprinkler sysem on the roof.....hello..yes that makes sense

about last Sat....there were 60 fire experts / people wandering around the fire headquarters down in the docklands....????? wonder what they were doing....oh yeah..communications were down, fire spotting plane could not go out, used the abc for reports to the public...but the phones were out.....sounds like absolute mayhem...and a useless system,,,,

what no 2 way radios or whatever.....mobiles usually dont work up in the hills

Aussiejeff · 20 February 2009

kincella said:
Canberra... a huge clearing to separate them from the pine forest next door....every house has its own sprinkler sysem on the roof.....hello..yes that makes sense

about last Sat....there were 60 fire experts / people wandering around the fire headquarters down in the docklands....????? wonder what they were doing....oh yeah..communications were down, fire spotting plane could not go out, used the abc for reports to the public...but the phones were out.....sounds like absolute mayhem...and a useless system,,,,

what no 2 way radios or whatever.....mobiles usually dont work up in the hills

Victoria has had 26 years since Ash Wednesday to do something constructive. The result?

PATHETIC!

Calliope · 20 February 2009

Aussiejeff said:
Victoria has had 26 years since Ash Wednesday to do something constructive. The result?

PATHETIC!

And this could have been averted. All Victoria had to do, if they wanted to ignore their own advisers, was send their Minister for Disasters (whoever he is ) up to Canberra to learn how it was done.

But that would have involved meaningful communication and cooperation between States and that is not on.

daisy · 20 February 2009

I found a picture!
There’s an article in today’s paper but it is not on-line.
Here’s the relevant bits.
Send Water South Plan.
By John Anderson
The massive outflow of water from NQ rivers has sparked a radical $ 5.6 billion plan to deliver water to SE Australia by canal.
Engineer Terry Bowring said a fraction of the billions of litres of floodwater running down the Burdekin and major Gulf rivers could supply southern capital cities and rejuvenate agriculture along the Murray-darling.
NSW based Mr Bowring said that on average 173,000 gigalitres (one gigalitre equals one billion litres) of water entered the ocean from NQ rivers.
This was 100 times the amount used by consumers in all Southern capitals. .....
Mr Bowring said the CSIRO had estimated that rainfall trends in NQ would maintain current patterns for 90 years while southern capitals, starting in the west , would dry out rapidly.
Mr Bowring is working with 2 major national construction identities on a plan to send between 4000 and 8000 gigalitres of NQ water south each year.....
The water would be channelled to SE Australia via canal.
The futuristic plan would enable Brisbane, Sydney, Melbourne and Adelaide to use water from the north. Other water would be directed to agriculture along the Murray-Darling.....
Mr Bowring said one option was to pump water into the Gilbert River formation aquifer, a massive underground formation which extends from north of Hughenden to Cairns.
Storing water underground minimised evaporation.
“I think it is possible to store 20,000 GL of water in the aquifer, but this would not be an annual event. We would probably like to keep about 6000GL stored there or in other aquifers to cover low rainfall years” he said.
Mr Bowring said cement-lined canals would be cheaper than piping.
River-bed transportation would be costly because of evaporation.....
His project has the support of Waterman AHW Consulting Engineers, one of Australia’s largest engineering firms.

kincella · 20 February 2009

daisy, that makes sense...but out of 173,000 gigs sending less than 5%, gee why not store it somewhere, for future use....I know people who would buy it and have it carted down here to save their stock and farms

good idea to go underground to stop evaporation...
good article..thanks
and back to the fires....was Canberra only 6 years ago...then there was the big Alpine forest fires.....massive fires every couple of years...each time theres a royal commission....except for Canberra...taking notice.....nothing from the other mobs...nsw and vic....no need for a royal commission....advice from 70 years ago still holds true today....
oh except for the big stuff up at headquarters
notice everyone is allowed input into the RC...so we should all send in notices to them....
todays news the MRB sat idly by...is almost unbelievable

MrBurns · 20 February 2009

Calliope said:
And this could have been averted. All Victoria had to do, if they wanted to ignore their own advisers, was send their Minister for Disasters (whoever he is ) up to Canberra to learn how it was done.

But that would have involved meaningful communication and cooperation between States and that is not on.

You're right and it has cost 200 lives, negligence and I hope the class action succeeds big time.

Prospector · 20 February 2009

Daisy, that would be an awesome plan! We have had 4mls since January 1 Can you imagine how dry that is.

And $5 billion? Surely that could come from the 10 billion Rudd plans to spend.

Julia · 20 February 2009

Prospector said:
Daisy, that would be an awesome plan! We have had 4mls since January 1 Can you imagine how dry that is.

And $5 billion? Surely that could come from the 10 billion Rudd plans to spend.

This just sounds so utterly sensible you almost know it won't happen.
And yes, a mere $5B, when you consider how much has already been wasted, would provide such a huge difference to the southern states. Maybe S.A. people need to hassle your local members?

Bushman · 20 February 2009

This is a cracker. Media and real estate agents becrying 'ruthless property investors'. Takes a vulture to know a vulture?

Err I would say if i was sitting on a burnt-out block of ash and dirt I would be fielding all offers. It is a market that has been beset by a 'black swan event' after all - prices must go down in the short to medium term.

From The Scum:
RUTHLESS property investors are swooping on bushfire victims to buy their devastated land.

Disgusted real estate agents told the Herald Sun they were fielding calls from predators seeking cheap "scorched land for sale".

Greedy landlords also have been caught trying to rent overpriced rooms to survivors who have lost everything.

daisy · 21 February 2009

Hi Prospector,
I have a friend in Brisbane and I try to visit at least twice a year. Not now, but over the past few years there was no rain there either. It was dreadful to see everything that used to be green now brown. Severe water restrictions with fines if a household used more than its allotted quota. While I stayed with my friend, I was so aware of the problem that I did not shower every day. (up here, because you get sticky, it's usually 2 per day ) Every time it rained at home, I would ring her to see if she got any. The answer was always no.
That's my only experience of what it must be like for you. But with the threat of bushfires on top...
While I don't actually understand exactly what it is the article I posted above means regarding method, it does seem doable and with expertise backing.
And I imagine it would have full support of all southern cities and up here, we do understand. We don't like seeing this water wasted when we know how hard it is elsewhere. Plus think of all the jobs it would create, now that the mining industry has left a great big black hole up here.

Victorian Fires

Garpal Gumnut

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pilots

kincella

Smurf1976

daisy

Julia

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numbercruncher

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Aussiejeff

Calliope

kincella

Aussiejeff

Calliope

daisy

kincella

MrBurns

Prospector

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Julia

In Memoriam

Bushman

daisy

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