Victorian Fires

[kincella]

Re: Victorian Fires - ideas to survive them

how about everyone is directed to a safety zone....that has been cleared for 500 yards in all directions.....a huge sprinkler system in the centre, the firies and helicopters, control the outside perimeter...just concentrate on saving whatever is in the centre of it...people, dogs . cat animals, horses cars.......

instead of the helicopter concentrating on stopping fires...in an unstoppable situation...they concentrate on saving lives and animals...that have gone to the safety zone....
another thing...if it rains or a sprinkler in place...that should stop the radiant heat??? should it not....goes in a straight line until it reaches an object that is cold or a lower heat....

just wondering re the bunker idea....if there is water or a fire resistant object in its path ???

oh and is there a fire repellent spray that could be sprayed on the perimeter of my fire zone......have seen american helicopters spraying a red dust over fires...

 

[Prospector]

Re: Victorian Fires - ideas to survive them

oh and is there a fire repellent spray that could be sprayed on the perimeter of my fire zone......have seen american helicopters spraying a red dust over fires...

They have been spraying fire retardants; one of the problems though is that some of these areas are near Melbourne's water catchment areas; they are concerned about getting the retardant into Melbourne's water supply!

 

[It's Snake Pliskin]

Well, Snake, I would just find a way to make it practical when the alternative could be dying. Where are people going to go? Wherever they like - Australia's a big country.

Julia,

I have been in a situation back in the 1983 fires when I was told to leave my parents house along with my mother. We had hours notice not days. It didn't eventuate because the wind changed. The fire continued for days after.

Yes it is a big country.
Cheers.

 

[kincella]

ok for now talking about the future...am sure they could find some spots that are not near catchment areas , until such times as they can remove the poison from the water....fit 500 people or more into the areas...save their lives...
scattered all around , say 50klms or more...and people must evacuate or fend for themselves....

still danger this fire season... this could happen again tomorrow.....guess people might be safe rushing back to an already burnt out area...nothing left there to burn

or not allow them to rebuild in those areas....and as for the farmers...allow them to clear the land around the house and enough room to protect livestock and equipment....

I know not to get in the car to drive...not in suburban Melb...tried to get to the beach one very hot day...15 min trip ordinary day...got stuck in traffic,,, an hour later, still not there, so drove home...

 

[Agentm]

i am curious what the yarra will look like in a while if it rains in the yarra catchment or yarra valley any time soon. i remember rivers turning black when the high plains fires went through.

kincella, its crazy out in there in the traffic, took me 15 minutes to get from chapel st to my street (4 km) just before..

i had to shorten my bike ride big time his morning, i had planned on a long run but settled for a 70km short run instead, the air ended up thick with smoke, many riders were really feeling it. it was tollerable when i went out, but when the sunrise came out as a bright red sun i figured it wasnt going to last, and the wind was picking up, so i got back as it really started to get bad.. at the south melb market rooftop carpark, usually it gives you the bolte bridge and westgate bridge views.. even the bolte bridge which is 2.4 km away was not visible at all.

a lot of family i know living in healesville are totally exhausted by the fire. they have to contend with ember attacks and smoke all the time. visibility is way down there compared to melbourne. its been days and days of mt st leonards and mt riddel that has prevented them from leaving. if the fire was further away they could leave and get fresh air. they dont complain about it, but its tiring a lot of people thats for sure..

in the black friday fires a lot of houses were lost in healesville, and the ambition of the locals and the fire services is to back burn, and to contain the fires there and keep it safe from the wind change thats expected in a coming days..

 

[Calliope]

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25051467-5018722,00.html

This is an extract from the above article in the Weekend Australian.

These fires killed en masse for the same reasons as Ash Wednesday and Black Friday: because experts and ordinary folk alike underestimated the bush.

Two quotes from the previous disasters offer confirmation that each generation of Australians gets caught making the same basic mistake.

"Communities have chosen to live cheek by jowl with an enormously hostile and dangerous environment," the then Victorian police commissioner Mick Millar wrote in his report into Ash Wednesday. "Many such communities have no background of living in the bush, and are generally unused to fending for themselves under fire conditions.

"Additionally, some of those with an interest in preserving the environment resist measures designed to remove hazards. However, perhaps the worst of all the fire-fighting problems in these areas where high fuel levels and relatively crowded populations co-exist is probably the most difficult to manage."

The royal commission into Black Friday made the same point more eloquently.

"The white men introduced fire to the forest," the report said. "They burned the floor to promote the growth of grass and to clear it of scrub which had grown where, for whatever reason, the balance of nature had broken down. The fire stimulated grass growth; but it encouraged scrub growth far more. Thus was begun the cycle of destruction which can not be arrested in our day."

Either of these passages could be used to explain part of what happened on Black Saturday.

 

[kincella]

hmmm...I suffer from asthma now , so going out is a problem...bit of smoke inside the house now....
at least the people burnt out in all those areas have somewhere safe to go now...just go back where its already burnt...reasonably safe there now

but wondering what of the others...yet to be burned...areas

does anyone like my idea of gathering in the footy ground, and having the firebrigade protect that one area...instead of wasting water on homes...bring it all together to save lives...
thinking out loud here...could be another like last saturday...what would they do ??? what would you do ?
so far all my old ideas of how to save self...are out the window...in that type of fire...
about 500 yards to the yarra river with the dog...but cannot swim....doubt if we could make it to the beach in the traffic...what else
used to think you go to a cleared area with a woollen blanket.....memo need to buy a woollen blanket...and a big piece of aluminium foil to cover it....
or go down and camp on the beach for a few days, with the dog....
I would have thought we dont have so many gum trees in the city, so would not see the same situation....but now I have my doubts, that we could cope ???

 

[Agentm]

at the kinglake firestorm, its reported that the temperature was as high as 1400 degrees

http://www.theage.com.au/interactive/2009/national/darkestday/gmap_age.html

 

[tech/a]

At a party last night and one topic was.

"Haven't seen church/religious groups rushing to donate or aid the Bushfire/Flood causes"

Salvo's weren't seen as a church group I might add.(Not that I agree).

I was thinking of those TV gospel chanting money making type churches and so were many of the others.

 

[Prospector]

At a party last night and one topic was.

"Haven't seen church/religious groups rushing to donate or aid the Bushfire/Flood causes"

Salvo's weren't seen as a church group I might add.(Not that I agree).
.

Ah, but they are saying prayers Tech/A That will provide moral sustenance! And eventually they may claim that their spiritual guidance has been the reason why so much money has been raised.

If you regard religion as your way of life, then the Salvation Army is definately there.

I also read in the Herald Sun online a few days ago that one Baptist/minor group Minister had said that the bushfires were because of the Victorian Government's stand on abortion. That story got pulled off very quickly though as I havent heard any more of it.

And now, the Victorian Government and SPOZ are in a class action of the Kinglake and surrounding fires - seems they started near an electricity pole. SPOZ is a Singapore company and its liability is limited to $100million but the class action is for hundreds of millions. Which the Vic Gov are liable for. Ouch!

 

[kincella]

jihadists revel in our misery....article in the news today....and I recall seeing an article nov/dec 08 that jIhads said they should all go out and light fires in autralia...as pay back...do as much damage as possible...and it was easy...
do not have time today to find it...
here is todays story
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25054889-2862,00.html

 

[kincella]

Claus Hauth, whose house near Wandong stands untouched next to neighbours' charred homes, attributed his luck to buying a more expensive weatherboard.

"We wanted something that was termite-proof - turns out it's bushfire-proof as well," he said.

Only 20,000 extra in costs to fireproof that house...


http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25054657-2862,00.html

 

[daisy]

does anyone like my idea of gathering in the footy ground, and having the firebrigade protect that one area...instead of wasting water on homes...bring it all together to save lives...

Kincella,
I haven't been to Victoria for over 20 years so I have no idea of the demographics and the layout but I've been thinking along the same lines as you. I've also been thinking about the communal air raid shelters in U.K. in WW2.
This might be an idea for some of the smaller towns that are in and will continue to be in the frontline.
They could be council maintained etc.
But my idea or yours it seems to me that from the sounds of the way this fire moved and the speed at which it moved how early would you have to start evacuating people? And there will be many people who won't want to leave until the very last moment because of pets, livestock etc.
Then as others have pointed out it's a matter of getting everybody there on time without causing panic and traffic problems and accidents.

It will be very interesting to see what comes out of the Royal Commission.
It seems as if much of this tragedy could have been averted by a bit more land clearing etc. Personally I am a pale greenie...pale because I fully believe in commonsense and things can be carried to extremes like not clearing dead wood on the sides of the road.etc That's one side of it.

The other side is that it seems that people live in these small towns because they like being surrounded by leafy green. I know I do. So it is a matter of taking the bad with the good. Which is why if I lived in those constantly threatened regions I would have a personal fire bunker which I maintained and kept in good order.

Of course that's easy to say in hindsight but hopefully this horrible horrible tragedy will produce some constructive and practical solutions to carry forward so that something like this never happens again. I don't mean that fires can be prevented but surely the loss of human life can be.

Up North, we all learnt a lot from Cyclone Tracey and nothing of that magnitude has ever reoccurred. As I said earlier our building codes changed and while it is unfeasible for a whole town to evacuate we are all prepared to do what needs to be done to prevent the loss of human life.

Hopefully the Royal Commission will do the same for Victoria.

 

[daisy]

Claus Hauth, whose house near Wandong stands untouched next to neighbours' charred homes, attributed his luck to buying a more expensive weatherboard.

"We wanted something that was termite-proof - turns out it's bushfire-proof as well," he said.

Only 20,000 extra in costs to fireproof that house...


http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25054657-2862,00.html

And worth every cent of it.

 

[Judd]

Hopefully the Royal Commission will do the same for Victoria.

How many bloody inquires are needed. Look at them!

http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/DSE/nrenf...574950010118E44688EB30B57BF124A2567CB000DB2EF

Then there was the Bushfire Judicial Inquiry 2005 in NSW and that of 2001/2002.

In the main, they basically say the same frigging thing: Get the fuel load down before the darn thing blows up and educate the populace.

 

[daisy]

How many bloody inquires are needed. Look at them!

http://www.dse.vic.gov.au/DSE/nrenf...574950010118E44688EB30B57BF124A2567CB000DB2EF

Then there was the Bushfire Judicial Inquiry 2005 in NSW and that of 2001/2002.

In the main, they basically say the same frigging thing: Get the fuel load down before the darn thing blows up and educate the populace.

Judd, I had no idea.
So why is this still happening?

 

[tech/a]

Judd, I had no idea.
So why is this still happening?

No one can make a decision.
No one can implement action.

All they can do is talk about it.
Governments are the most in efficient form of organisation known to man.
As business they would have been bankrupt in every term.
Yet we give them around 50% of our earnings to squander.

You find polititians thrust into major corporate roles with no idea how to run a deli let alone a portfolio.---So they talk about it!

 

[kincella]

daisy,
the royal commission following the 1939 bushfires...over 70 years ago...could have been made this week...it states what the problem was and how to fix it....absolutley nothing has changed from 70 years ago....except we have had 70 years of additional build up of material, leaves and rubbish just lying in wait for the same thing to happen again...plus an increased population to burn...
and apart from the wealthier tree changes....most of that population were young people with families, who could not afford to own homes closer to the cities ....the housing was much cheaper out there....

were they greenies ???? all talk about the love of the bush....in the old days before being 'green' became fashionable.....we used to call people who lacked experience in any given task...as green....aka like a young tree root....it had yet to grow up and mature...

as for evacuation....it should have been done by friday...there were warnings all week....the clue in future is ,,,if the temp is high near 35- 40 degrees, and winds above 40-50kph....then get out to safety...all in an orderly fashion
if people want to stay....tell them..there will be no one to help you...thats the truth...no ifs and buts......2 firetrucks and 550 homes...3000 people in one town.....and the firetrucks were in another town, helping others....

oh and if you see the maps of VIC where the fires are...it also shows about 1/3rd to 1/2 is national parks.....with no maintenance....the last big fires in 2006 in VIC wiped out over 1 million acres.....so with another 6 weeks of hot weather....there is more to burn
oh and I would doubt QLD would be much different....regarding amount of material waiting to burn...or the govts..green attitude
cheers

 

[Calliope]

Judd, I had no idea.
So why is this still happening?

NewsCom item;

VICTORIA Police Chief Commission Christine Nixon says authorities are still determining how the Kinglake bushfire started, amid reports victims have launched legal action against the state government and a private power company over the blaze.

I think the victims of these fires have a good case for a Class action against the Green Party for their continued opposition to fuel reduction despite every bushfire enquiry in the past pointing out that the heat and ferocity of these fires is proportional to the level of fuel on the forest floor.

And these levels have reached massive proportions since controlled burning in the cold months reached negligible proportions in the Victorian danger zones.

But of course these levels could not have been reached without the willing complicity of the State politicians who will stoop to any levels to keep Green preferences.

I think our image of the valiant tree huggers throwing themselves in front of bulldozers to save the forest needs a reappraisal. They might be forced by public opinion to give priority to saving people.

 

[daisy]

daisy,
oh and if you see the maps of VIC where the fires are...it also shows about 1/3rd to 1/2 is national parks.....with no maintenance....the last big fires in 2006 in VIC wiped out over 1 million acres.....so with another 6 weeks of hot weather....there is more to burn
oh and I would doubt QLD would be much different....regarding amount of material waiting to burn...or the govts..green attitude
cheers

I've just been devastated by the loss of life and answers seem so simple when you're as far away as I am. I can only hope that maybe this time will be the last time.

I was also going to say that we don't have bushfire problems in Qld so the gov'ts green attitude is not so relevant. However there were huge problems in Brisbane earlier this year with gale force winds and trees that fell over so I take your point.