Victorian Fires

kincella · 13 February 2009

question for those who know the kilmore to maryville area....I note there is a kinglake to whittlesea rd...just looking at maps
would it be possible for someone on a motorbike...to ride say between kilmore..wandong around trip to flowerdale over to kinglake...
is there a road between kinglake and marysville ???
recall seeing a photo of a bloke on a black motorbike...they wanted to talk to,
and people said they saw a motorbike with a can on the back driving around...
my question is could one person just ride around...cover 80 klms or so in one night and light all those fires...
people have said ...fires suddenly appeared out of nowhere....
in the news photos...there is a photo no 130 of bike lying on the road...said the driver was killed...and photo no 135...shows a bikerider...near where cars where burnt.....???
just wondering people taking all those photos, if some may have inadvertently captured bike riders ???? or the person responsible...apparently arsonists like to view their work!

It's Snake Pliskin · 13 February 2009

Agentm said:
calliiope, when you hear of the heartache, the jobs people have to endure, to have to pull burnt bodies of children from homes and cars, to secure crime scenes, the loss the agony the sheer gravity of the situation overwhelms you, it makes you weep, its not easy for those like the ones working at the morgue, working 12 hours shifts 7 days a week, this is not an opportunity to prosper or to grandstand, this is just a full scale effort to deal with a bushfire disaster never seen before.

Actually that is incorrect. It's probable that you haven't seen anything like it before. Throughout Australian history there have been large bushfires like the most recent which have produced fatalities in multiple numbers and have also destroyed many towns. The 1938-39 fires destroyed more of the state forest wise. Considering we have more people living in forested areas it is hardly surprising that we have more fatalities this time.

For those affected I hope their lives are repaired soon.

Calliope · 13 February 2009

Agentm has sought to denigrate me for daring to criticize hipocrites and poseurs. He has given me all sorts of nasty labels because he claims I am not grieving enough.

Having lost my wife and my brother through separate avoidable tragic accidents, I can assure him that grief is a private affair confined to family and friends. Of course help and sympathy from outsiders is appreciated, but you don't expect them to grieve over someone they don't even know. However it be normal for them to be upset about the causes of the tragedy.

MrBurns · 13 February 2009

Everyone grieves in their own way, I cant watch the news without getting a lump in my throat and I've been heading for the bottle more lately.
I too despise the hypocrites and poseurs and aren't afraid to say so.

No one should try the claim the moral high ground here, everyone has their own way of dealing with it .

Agentm · 13 February 2009

It's Snake Pliskin said:
Actually that is incorrect. It's probable that you haven't seen anything like it before. Throughout Australian history there have been large bushfires like the most recent which have produced fatalities in multiple numbers and have also destroyed many towns. The 1938-39 fires destroyed more of the state forest wise. Considering we have more people living in forested areas it is hardly surprising that we have more fatalities this time.

For those affected I hope their lives are repaired soon.

i totally am with you on your sentiments there snake.

i know a guy who lived in warrandyte in the black friday blaze, his parents had no warning and they simply had no option but to run down the hill and seek cover in the yarra river.

The Black Friday fires of January 13, 1939, in Victoria, Australia, are considered one of the worst natural bushfires (wildfires) in the world, and most certainly the single worst in Australian history as a measure of land affected. Almost 20,000 km ² (4,942,000 acres, 2,000,000 ha) of land was burnt, 71 people died, several towns were entirely destroyed and the Royal Commission that resulted from it led to major changes in forest management. Over 1,300 homes and 69 sawmills were burnt and a total of 3,700 buildings were destroyed. It was calculated that three quarters of the State of Victoria was directly or indirectly affected by the disaster. The Royal Commission into the fires was to note, "it appeared the whole State was alight on Friday, 13 January, 1939".
Conditions

In the days preceding the fires, Melbourne experienced some of its hottest temperatures on record: 43.8 °C (110.8 °F) on January 8 and 44.7 °C (112.4 °F) on January 10. On January 13, the day of the fires, temperatures reached 45.6 °C (114.1 °F), which remained the hottest day recorded in Melbourne until February 7, 2009, (although temperatures of around 47 °C (117 °F) were reported on the Black Thursday fires of February 6, 1851).

The summer of 1938–39 had been hot and dry, and several fires had broken out. By early January, fires were burning in a number of locations across the state. Then, on Friday January 13, a strong northerly wind hit the state, causing several of the fires to combine into one massive front.

..............its very much a similar weather pattern in the preceding days, and they had many more days of strong northerlies and their resources would have been nothing like what we have today..

i think the number of houses lost so far is 1831, which is about 500 more homes than black friday, and its about 7000 displaced people resulting from it.. so your right about smaller hectares burnt but more populated..

i think the black friday fires were harder to contain with resources being far leaner back then, which quite possibly resulted in far more hectares being burnt..

Julia · 13 February 2009

kincella said:
almost no one talks about the misery for both domestic and wild life animals....people are not allowed into the areas....so where is the water and help for the poor suffering animals....everyone giving millions of dollars, food clothing for people....but no one talks about the animals....they would suffer more...they were in the middle of it.....
now 1800 homes lost....new threat to healsville.....wonder if they have kept the animals in the sanctuary or moved them.....
sorry guys...all the talk about humans suffering...but zilch about the animals...

Kincella, I share your concern. I worry more about the animals than the people. And don't anyone come down on me angrily for expressing this.

There is apparently some great caring going on unreported by the media:

Kind Hearted People
One group of 'quiet achievers' who have responded to the urgent call for animal accommodation are from the (mainly) Boarding Members group of the PIAA - Pet Industry Association of Australia.

In total these people have made available or are currently providing accommodation at no charge for up to 850 dogs and 650 cats.

The list is being added to daily and is available on their website, however you can see the current list here.

We'd like to say well done to all those people and the PIAA for their prompt response to this disaster.

The PIAA have also been very active working alongside the RSPCA and VicDPI (Dept. of Primary Industries) as well as NSWDPI who are also assisting VicDPI.

This emergency is far from over even though media interest will have waned by the end of this week.

Anyone who wants to provide goods or services can register
via the Dogs Victoria website or the RSPCA Victoria website.

Other groups such as Pet Rescue have also provided links to aid pet and animal owners in this disaster.

Please remember - thousands of people who are never mentioned in mainstream media will have lost family, friends and their furry, feathered and four legged friends.

Spare a thought for them all please.

Better still, if you are able to do something, make sure you register with the websites above.

It doesn't have to be money.
It doesn't have to be today.
Just do what you can when you can....

Julia · 13 February 2009

Agentm said:
julia you said you didnt get this

"just going back to the basic principle of staying to defend a house, I will just never get this. If bushfire was anywhere in my vicinity I'd be packed and off with the first warning. Let the house burn down. Insurance will rebuild it and provide replacement accommodation of similar standard in the meantime."

the king lake people often had no choice, sometimes the road out was in the path of the flames.. and it came so fast, not like anything seen before..

the kinglake cfa have 2 trucks, and lost 550 homes.. the two trucks were called out to support the fire down the road and were a long way from their town and their loved ones.. so they left town and were not there when the firestorm hit..

the speed of the fire that came through kinglake really did not leave much time for anything.

i can tell you that in my sisters street they had some residents home on the day, and of them they basically had no choice but to fight the fires and stay.

one neighbour tried to put his horse in his horse float next to his garage, but failed, i guess he was thinking it could be protected from the flames in the float, then when he saw the flames he fled, in his car and left the horse which got burnt and is in my sisters care still.

others fought and were able to contain the massive ember storm that preceded the fire itself.. so you basically do you best to keep your home from burning before the fire hits you, she described it like a machine, a turbine but deafening.. under the instruction of her husband, she and her daughter fought the ember attack and the fires as the took hold of the home, they had only one goal, to try and kep the home from burning so they could retreat there when the fire hit..

these are extremely heroic deeds, as i know personally that both my sister and her daughter were absolutely terrified.

julia the 3 residents that were there and did fight the fires, of them 2 properties were saved, one couple fled their burning home and were fortunate to have a practically empty dam near by which saved them from death. they had to be helped out of later as they simply were exhausted physically from the fight to put out the fire in the intense heat and couldnt get out of the mud..

talk about heros, anyone who faced it, and many had no choice, were doing things that were beyond the normal experience. i know my sister is so proud of her daughter and her ability to be calm and manage the terror around them as the fire passed overhead..

i am jubilant they lived, and i think its amazing they did manage to save their own lives and their home only 500 litres of water..

julia its very hard to understand, but your not protecting your house just for the sake of it, when a fire comes through without warning many were protecting their houses so they could find shelter in there as the fire swept over them.. many died in their homes and really had no option

my brother in law got one call out to the cfa, he told them how many there were in his home and near by, and then the power and the phones went dead..

i have many family members in and around healesville that have for 3 or days and nights had ember attacks and fires all around them, you stay because your able to put out your home, there simply isnt enough people around to stand on your property and fight the embers and keep your home from burning.. they are exhausted and the constant smoke for days on end is also taking its toll health wise..

they will execute their fire plans and they constantly talk to the fire officers and police.. if the winfd changes and they see the flames coming, they will all leave their properties early.

i saw on Q&A on tv last night the guy with his bunker, the footage of the fire and the noise can be heard clearly. he was in fairly flat terrrain compared to where my sister is in kinglake, they had no time to do anything other than set up for the fire and do what they could to stay alive..

I understand fully that people in the fire affected areas eventually had no choice but to stay. But for almost a week prior to last Saturday even we up here in Queensland were hearing about the dire risk in Victoria, with the parched ground and forecast high winds and temperatures. Must have been like a tinderbox.

It's at that stage that I'd have packed up myself and anyone I love, including any animals, and gone to some place where there was no risk of the fire.
Of course, if you leave it until the fire is 50kms from you, hoping it won't envelop your area, you limit your choices.

I don't mean this to sound as though I'm unsympathetic to what anyone has gone through, but unless I'm very much misunderstanding the situation, it wasn't as though immense fires just erupted out of nowhere without any precipitating factors such as the dry ground and air, high winds, and high temperatures.

AgentM, I respect the way you feel. Perhaps you are more emotional about the situation, understandably, because of your sister's close encounter.
But I do think others should be allowed to express a different point of view without being insulted and criticised.

We've had lifetimes of witnessing the hollow hypocrisy of politicians, so for many of us to be cynical about the sincerity of everything they are saying is, I think, pretty reasonable.

I recall one TV shot of Mr Rudd allowing a fire survivor to weep on his chest.
That cynical part of me thought: 'bet Rudd is thinking what a great photo opportunity this is'.

MrBurns · 13 February 2009

Julia said:
I understand fully that people in the fire affected areas eventually had no choice but to stay. But for almost a week prior to last Saturday even we up here in Queensland were hearing about the dire risk in Victoria, with the parched ground and forecast high winds and temperatures. Must have been like a tinderbox.

It's at that stage that I'd have packed up myself and anyone I love, including any animals, and gone to some place where there was no risk of the fire.
Of course, if you leave it until the fire is 50kms from you, hoping it won't envelop your area, you limit your choices.

I don't mean this to sound as though I'm unsympathetic to what anyone has gone through, but unless I'm very much misunderstanding the situation, it wasn't as though immense fires just erupted out of nowhere without any precipitating factors such as the dry ground and air, high winds, and high temperatures.

AgentM, I respect the way you feel. Perhaps you are more emotional about the situation, understandably, because of your sister's close encounter.
But I do think others should be allowed to express a different point of view without being insulted and criticised.

We've had lifetimes of witnessing the hollow hypocrisy of politicians, so for many of us to be cynical about the sincerity of everything they are saying is, I think, pretty reasonable.

I recall one TV shot of Mr Rudd allowing a fire survivor to weep on his chest.
That cynical part of me thought: 'bet Rudd is thinking what a great photo opportunity this is'.

On Saturday morning I said to my son the firebugs will be out today in force and they were.
It was so obvious, I would have been out of there immediately, we've been over this before, the Royal Commission will give all those in Local Govt who aided and abetted this disaster time to position themselves to be absolved.

MrBurns · 13 February 2009

Julia said:
I recall one TV shot of Mr Rudd allowing a fire survivor to weep on his chest.
That cynical part of me thought: 'bet Rudd is thinking what a great photo opportunity this is'.

He wouldn't be consciously thinking that but the subconscious politician in him would have relished it.

moXJO · 13 February 2009

The fact that they tried to link the stimulus package and the fire relief fund together, so they could either rush the package through, or score more brownie points. Which said enough about their character.

Prospector · 13 February 2009

We are smelling the smoke of the Victorian bushfires in Adelaide! For the next few days, because of increasing South easterly winds, we have smog alerts. Adelaide is at risk for the next few days, and currently there is a fire threatening houses in the south west.

tcoates · 13 February 2009

Man charged over Churchill blaze

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/13/2491107.htm

Agentm · 13 February 2009

Julia said:
I understand fully that people in the fire affected areas eventually had no choice but to stay. But for almost a week prior to last Saturday even we up here in Queensland were hearing about the dire risk in Victoria, with the parched ground and forecast high winds and temperatures. Must have been like a tinderbox.

It's at that stage that I'd have packed up myself and anyone I love, including any animals, and gone to some place where there was no risk of the fire.
Of course, if you leave it until the fire is 50kms from you, hoping it won't envelop your area, you limit your choices.

I don't mean this to sound as though I'm unsympathetic to what anyone has gone through, but unless I'm very much misunderstanding the situation, it wasn't as though immense fires just erupted out of nowhere without any precipitating factors such as the dry ground and air, high winds, and high temperatures.

AgentM, I respect the way you feel. Perhaps you are more emotional about the situation, understandably, because of your sister's close encounter.
But I do think others should be allowed to express a different point of view without being insulted and criticised.

We've had lifetimes of witnessing the hollow hypocrisy of politicians, so for many of us to be cynical about the sincerity of everything they are saying is, I think, pretty reasonable.

I recall one TV shot of Mr Rudd allowing a fire survivor to weep on his chest.
That cynical part of me thought: 'bet Rudd is thinking what a great photo opportunity this is'.

julia, i dont know what your talking about here..

i replied to your message about your not understanding why people stayed in their homes, and in kinglake i gave you an account of how it was there. it was as i told you, it caught everyone unaware, and many died on the roads trying to flee. many died in their homes.

there is no hypocrisy of politicians in calling for a day of mourning for this particular disaster, if you support others on the criticism of this event then so be it, i stand by my remarks and believe its totally within the grounds of normality and rationality to be able to call a day of mourning for the victims families and friends, even if you dont get it, even if you cant have empathy with the victims julia, its still perfectly normal and entirely correct to have a day of mourning.

with all respect julia, i dont agree with you on that point, and i think the criticism is totally uncalled for, not supporting the day of mourning and to criticise the calling of one imho shows little regard for the suffering, and its a real sad state that this type of critcism is this event is occurring. why not wholeheartedly stand behind them??

if you cant allow some latitude those who have suffered enormous loss, of friends ,family and community, and if people do not understand what grief and loss is, or why people need to express it and mourn. or why a leader of the nation would call for one right now.. then the world really becomes a place lacking humainity imho..

the victims of this disaster absolutely have the support of everyone down here in victoria and we will certainly join in, stand by them and do everything to help them, and allow them their opportunity to meet as a community to pay homage to the dead, and pray for those still suffering from the aftermath of thsi fire.

no one is political grandstanding here, its entirely correct for the leader of the nation to call for a day of mourning, and if one wasnt called you would have no doubt be just as critical of the prime minister for not calling one for this disaster and yet considering one for a child murdered on the west gate bridge.

anyone who has suffered personal loss would never be critical of nor even disrespectful of a day of mounring for victims of a disaster of this proportion.

Happy · 13 February 2009

tcoates said:
Man charged over Churchill blaze

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/13/2491107.htm

From above article -

From ABC, 13 Feb. 09

The court heard the man is in a fragile mental state and magistrate Clive Alsop made an order that he be assessed by a psychologist.

Softies and dogooders seem to be swarming in already and I bet it will be impossible to conduct fair trial as almost everybody heard of what happened.

Agentm · 13 February 2009

a lot of people died in the churchill blaze, the fire was well calculated by the arsonist.

IFocus · 13 February 2009

Agentm said:
julia, i dont know what your talking about here..

i replied to your message about your not understanding why people stayed in their homes, and in kinglake i gave you an account of how it was there. it was as i told you, it caught everyone unaware, and many died on the roads trying to flee. many died in their homes.

there is no hypocrisy of politicians in calling for a day of mourning for this particular disaster, if you support others on the criticism of this event then so be it, i stand by my remarks and believe its totally within the grounds of normality and rationality to be able to call a day of mourning for the victims families and friends, even if you dont get it, even if you cant have empathy with the victims julia, its still perfectly normal and entirely correct to have a day of mourning.

with all respect julia, i dont agree with you on that point, and i think the criticism is totally uncalled for, not supporting the day of mourning and to criticise the calling of one imho shows little regard for the suffering, and its a real sad state that this type of critcism is this event is occurring. why not wholeheartedly stand behind them??

if you cant allow some latitude those who have suffered enormous loss, of friends ,family and community, and if people do not understand what grief and loss is, or why people need to express it and mourn. or why a leader of the nation would call for one right now.. then the world really becomes a place lacking humainity imho..

the victims of this disaster absolutely have the support of everyone down here in victoria and we will certainly join in, stand by them and do everything to help them, and allow them their opportunity to meet as a community to pay homage to the dead, and pray for those still suffering from the aftermath of thsi fire.

no one is political grandstanding here, its entirely correct for the leader of the nation to call for a day of mourning, and if one wasnt called you would have no doubt be just as critical of the prime minister for not calling one for this disaster and yet considering one for a child murdered on the west gate bridge.

anyone who has suffered personal loss would never be critical of nor even disrespectful of a day of mounring for victims of a disaster of this proportion.

Must admit Agentm that I was getting pretty cynical about the coverage and that the net works were milking the emotion for all it was worth.

Hearing your side of the story and the fact many have had the chance to tell their story via the media is I can see very important more so that my cynical opinion thanks for your posts and fantastic your family made it through.

As for the politicians its their job to be in the front line and showing support I think their actions so far have been commendable.

hasn't it being great that sports stars have also been putting in time.

MrBurns · 13 February 2009

14 firefighters died on Ash Wednesday , non were lost here that must be a step forward.

Julia · 13 February 2009

Agentm said:
julia, i dont know what your talking about here..

OK. I'll try again. What I cannot understand is why anyone living within a couple of hundred kms of any potential fire didn't get away to safety days before the firestorm on Saturday. If I heard about the risk a week before when I'm in Qld, surely the same risk would have been offered to Victorian people.

There is no hypocrisy of politicians in calling for a day of mourning for this particular disaster, if you support others on the criticism of this event then so be it, i stand by my remarks and believe its totally within the grounds of normality and rationality to be able to call a day of mourning for the victims families and friends, even if you dont get it, even if you cant have empathy with the victims julia, its still perfectly normal and entirely correct to have a day of mourning.

Whoa there! I have not commented at all on the day of mourning.
Please don't attribute to me anything I have not said.

I've confined my comments to expressing astonishment that anyone would choose to stay in any part of Victoria that could be affected by these fires, even before they started, just on account of the absolutely dangerous precipitating conditions, and also to sadness for all the dead animals.

And then I've remarked on my cynicism about politicians. You may well think they are dewy eyed idealists, their only concern being for the well being of their loyal constituents. I just happen to believe otherwise.

with all respect julia, i dont agree with you on that point, and i think the criticism is totally uncalled for, not supporting the day of mourning and to criticise the calling of one imho shows little regard for the suffering, and its a real sad state that this type of critcism is this event is occurring. why not wholeheartedly stand behind them??

See above. I have made no comment about any day of mourning.
But one thing I do hate is being told how I should feel, and when.

I'm not sure, Agentm, why you seem to have declared yourself the arbiter of the correct level of response and feeling in this sad affair. As Prospector observed earlier, sadness and grief is a very personal thing. We don't all get off on all the public stuff.

its entirely correct for the leader of the nation to call for a day of mourning, and if one wasnt called you would have no doubt be just as critical of the prime minister for not calling one for this disaster and yet considering one for a child murdered on the west gate bridge.

I've made no judgement on either event.

anyone who has suffered personal loss would never be critical of nor even disrespectful of a day of mounring for victims of a disaster of this proportion.

Again, you have appointed yourself the arbiter of other people's feelings.
As I said before, I completely respect your feelings and your right to do whatever you feel comfortable doing, but if other people see things differently or choose to take a less public stand, then that is also their right.

It's Snake Pliskin · 14 February 2009

Julia said:
OK. I'll try again. What I cannot understand is why anyone living within a couple of hundred kms of any potential fire didn't get away to safety days before the firestorm on Saturday. If I heard about the risk a week before when I'm in Qld, surely the same risk would have been offered to Victorian people.

Julia,

Spot fires are known to spread and start well away from a fire. A lot of deaths resulted from spot fires and have done in the past. All of a sudden there is a fire near your house and it is blowing up onto you without any warning. To suggest they should move well within a week is not always practical. Where is a fifth, or a quarter of the state going to go?

The answer is hazard reduction and the elimination of greens controlling decision making. Building bunkers and investing in life saving equipment would be good mitigation tactics to employ.

Fires are good for the land but not when they kill en masse.

ghotib · 14 February 2009

Julia said:
OK. I'll try again. What I cannot understand is why anyone living within a couple of hundred kms of any potential fire didn't get away to safety days before the firestorm on Saturday. If I heard about the risk a week before when I'm in Qld, surely the same risk would have been offered to Victorian people.

We all seem to be getting more and more upset.

Most of Melbourne is within a couple of hundred kms of these fires. All the southern capitals are within a couple of hundred kms of bad bushfires within the last 10 years. I'm almost sure they've all experienced bushfires well into the suburbs. I live about 6kms towards the Blue Mountains from the Sydney CBD, and I've found burnt leaves in my backyard from fires 70 miles away. It's like cyclones in the tropics. You learn, you adapt, you plan, you get on with life, and sometimes you just plain run out of luck.

How many people have seen the videos taken by people in the midst of the fire? They're really valuable records to help everyone prepare for the next time. We need to learn from the survivors.

And somebody tell Germs to stop pretending to know everything about Australia.

Ghoti

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