University killing in USA

[stoxclimber]

Interesting 2020 that in a western or "civilised" society that the killing of humans is more newsworthy or shocking than in an (for example) an African nation where life is considered, duh, less important.

Well, I think that you would find that if you went to an African news website [and I did, just to check], the shooting wasn't getting that much coverage itself. What's your point? People relate to things that are closer to home..

 

[2020hindsight]

pretty complex one -
the other easy comparison already made in other posts here

32 killed in Virginia, vs
90 killed per day on average this year in Iraq.
you're right stox, not "so close to home", - then again -
where's "home" these days, ?

or maybe "not as far away as you'd like either "

 

[Wysiwyg]

Well, I think that you would find that if you went to an African news website [and I did, just to check], the shooting wasn't getting that much coverage itself. What's your point? People relate to things that are closer to home..

I think I understand what you are saying.If a family member or someone we knew was the victim it would be a different view.

I may have inadvertently suggested that all people are equal which is definately not the case.

 

[Brujo]

Wysiwyg, I understand what you're saying. I read a quote by someone a couple of weeks ago suggesting that Americans get over 9/11 - the people killed in that incident is approximately equal to the number of AIDS-related deaths every day!!! Or something like that. Not saying I agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment, but certainly food for thought.

Something that always makes me wonder is when someone famous dies, the focus is on their family etc....like Bindi and Bob Irwin being plastered across the media as being brave little soldiers in the face of tragedy....whilst in the same week, maybe 100's of other kids in Aus were also coming to groups with losing a parent unexpectedly. Or magazines full of Rove getting over Belinda. Very very tragic, but thousands of others are going through the same thing at any given time.

The saddest tragedy in the 90's I thought was that Mother Theresa passed away the same week as Princess Diana. Her passing was reduced to a few paragraphs!!

 

[Wysiwyg]

Wysiwyg, I understand what you're saying. I read a quote by someone a couple of weeks ago suggesting that Americans get over 9/11 - the people killed in that incident is approximately equal to the number of AIDS-related deaths every day!!! Or something like that. Not saying I agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment, but certainly food for thought.

Something that always makes me wonder is when someone famous dies, the focus is on their family etc....like Bindi and Bob Irwin being plastered across the media as being brave little soldiers in the face of tragedy....whilst in the same week, maybe 100's of other kids in Aus were also coming to groups with losing a parent unexpectedly. Or magazines full of Rove getting over Belinda. Very very tragic, but thousands of others are going through the same thing at any given time.

The saddest tragedy in the 90's I thought was that Mother Theresa passed away the same week as Princess Diana. Her passing was reduced to a few paragraphs!!

To sum things up it is in the connection/bond/tie we feel to others and the loss of that connection/bond/tie.The stronger the bond (supposedly )the greater the loss.And don`t the media play on it. Just as stoxclimber pointed out.

Oh and I can`t leave myself out....my comments are part of it too.(so maybe I just keep quiet and `let it be`)For tomorrow it will be another subject

 

[chops_a_must]

To sum things up it is in the connection/bond/tie we feel to others and the loss of that connection/bond/tie.The stronger the bond (supposedly )the greater the loss.And don`t the media play on it. Just as stoxclimber pointed out.

Oh and I can`t leave myself out....my comments are part of it too.(so maybe I just keep quiet and `let it be`)For tomorrow it will be another subject

It's been basically spoken about here, probably not as eloquently as what follows. This clip sums it up pretty well.

And I haven't had a chance to have a philosophy w**k for a while. :

Gabriel Marcel (the man who coined the termed existentialism) on the topic:

Say, for instance, that I am told of some misfortune with which I am asked to sympathise: I understand what I am told; I admit in theory that the sufferers deserve my sympathy; I see that it is a case where it would be logical and just for me to respond with sympathy; I even offer my sympathy, but only with my mind; because, when all is said and done, I am obliged to admit that I feel absolutely nothing… [W]hat remains in me is the rather embarrassing awareness that, after all, THESE ARE PEOPLE I DO NOT KNOW – if one had to be touched by every human misfortune, life would not be possible; it would indeed be too short. The moment I think: After all, this is a case, No. 75,627 – it is no good, I can feel nothing[!]

'On the Ontological Mystery' from 'The Philosophy of Existence' (1933)

It's a really beautiful read as a whole as well.

 

[2020hindsight]

The saddest tragedy in the 90's I thought was that Mother Theresa passed away the same week as Princess Diana. Her passing was reduced to a few paragraphs!!

You're right Brujo, that is a classic example. I wonder if the reality is worse - that many missed it altogether?

Not saying that there wasn't more to read about with Diana, but it would have been equally possible to miss the nun's passing altogether (in those hardcopy newspaper days) with the feeding frenzy about Diana's story. Just chewing a bit of mental gum on the topic here :-

1. In the past, we bought papers, and we were treated like dumb proletariat, incapable of mental ampidexterity or rather multi-tasking ? Can't blame the press entirely, (- I never buy papers these days, but I always look at the headlines when I buy lunch, and compare that with the actual story I find on the web , lol - always good for a laugh - headlines in particluar can twist / distort the truth unbelievably).

2. I mean if one kid was spruking "Diana killed in horrifc circumstances complete with intrigue - several conspiracy theoeries, love triangles, etc read all about it "

and the kid up the road is spruking "Mother Theresa dies after long illness, born in Skopje, Kosovo, devoted her life to working with the poor, Nobel Peace Prize, cared for thousands of dying till she died herself, malaria and failure of the left heart ventricle suspected contributors ...but , hey, death predictable after a good innings".

There's be no contest which would sell more.

3. But Hopefully the fact that news is now something you "scan" and "select" off the net rather than buy a paper for instance will start to get rid of the need for distorted attention seeking headlines. (newspapers - now to get rid of the commercial channel sensationalising). I mean not difficult to select BOTH topics quickly, and apportion appropriate time to each topic.

4. There might even be a bit more self analysis "We the press and you the public are responsible for Diana having to run some desperate gauntlet from unethical pesterering by people trying to get photos of her every move - to feed some ridiculous public appetite"

5. After the Lindy Chamberlain matter, half the press could have been convicted of "perverting the public sense of decent behaviour" and forced to do community work IMO.

6. Changing the topic completely, you wonder how much time the pollies devote to announcing "Corruption discovered in toad hall" during a big distraction. I wonder what will be disclosed on 28 april during the final of the world cup cricket

7. Another complete change of tack (sorry) - I think I heard this morning that there are other mentally suspect students being reported on Anyway it wouldn't be surprising if a few more were rounded up , knee jerk reaction etc.

Mother Teresa suffered a heart attack in Rome during 1983, while visiting Pope John Paul II. After a second attack in 1989, she received a pacemaker. In 1991, after a battle with pneumonia while in Mexico, she suffered further heart problems. She offered to resign her position as head of the Missionaries of Charity. However, the nuns of the order, in a secret ballot, voted for her to stay. Mother Teresa agreed to continue her work as head of the order.

In April 1996, Mother Teresa fell and broke her collar bone. In August of that year she suffered from malaria and failure of the left heart ventricle. She underwent heart surgery, but it was clear that her health was declining. On March 13, 1997 she stepped down from the head of Missionaries of Charity and died on September 5, 1997, nine days after her 87th birthday.etc

 

[bel532]

Wysiwyg, I understand what you're saying. I read a quote by someone a couple of weeks ago suggesting that Americans get over 9/11 - the people killed in that incident is approximately equal to the number of AIDS-related deaths every day!!! Or something like that. Not saying I agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment, but certainly food for thought.

Something that always makes me wonder is when someone famous dies, the focus is on their family etc....like Bindi and Bob Irwin being plastered across the media as being brave little soldiers in the face of tragedy....whilst in the same week, maybe 100's of other kids in Aus were also coming to groups with losing a parent unexpectedly. Or magazines full of Rove getting over Belinda. Very very tragic, but thousands of others are going through the same thing at any given time.

The saddest tragedy in the 90's I thought was that Mother Theresa passed away the same week as Princess Diana. Her passing was reduced to a few paragraphs!!

You can't compare the event of 9/11 with AIDS, the latter, in the main, is a self inflicted disease due to those engaging in unprotected sex with mutiple partners. The deaths due to 9/11 (inspite of the anti-American sentiments on this site) were NOT self inflicted.

Frankly I had very little interest in the demise of Princess Diane, tragic as it was, as, IMHO, she was just a 'pretty face'. All the fuss over her untimely was just over the top. The comparision between the media's treatment of Princess Diane's death and that of Mother Theresa is very apt.

The reason people make a big fuss over one person's death, especially a so called celebrity', is that they can easily relate to one person and one single event. It's very difficult to be in a constant sense of mourning over the thousands that die every die through malnutrition, war, AIDS etc. The tsunami in Indonesia maybe the exception, possibly because it was a SINGLE event that occurred on our doorstep.

 

[2020hindsight]

a. You can't compare the event of 9/11 with AIDS,
b. the latter, in the main, is a self inflicted disease due to those engaging in unprotected sex with mutiple partners.
c. The deaths due to 9/11 (inspite of the anti-American sentiments on this site) were NOT self inflicted.

a. agreed
b. such an outdated attitude bel, sheesh,- but supposing you are right (and ignoring the millions of other aids victims) - are you prepared to acknowledge the contribution of the Vatican and GW Bush ? (all as per recent news article on ABC)
c. ( Y/N answer?) - I'd agree.

As for being anti-American, here's a quote from a website posted elsewhere.

"Ideological Quagmires" - had this interesting comment about the USA...(by an american obviously)
http://iq.mythicflow.com/

Quote:
Besides pride in or admiration of its principles, being pro-USA requires acknowledging and facing its shortcomings and its inconsistencies. Like the concomitance [concurrent coexistence] of pro & anti, America both has a democracy and it doesn't; its citizens vote but only for their favorite ad campaign.

The American dream also still endures, because it's being adapted as a fantasy in order to maintain its allure in today's dynamic reality.

Of course America was never invincible, it was a role it perfected in front of a mirror and performed it with the conviction of a method actor, so much so that it couldn't tell itself apart anymore from the character.

As for being unstable, that could never happen here, those who'd make trouble would be locked up in our flourishing, profitable prisons.

Now there is a American who calls it like it is (IMO), yet a self-styled "pro-USA" American, who maintains his right to free speech and all those things that America should stand for, used to stand for, - and can think beyond the spin doctored rhetoric that comes out of Washington.
Note Theodore Roosevelt's take on what qualifies as "treasonable to the American public..."

Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official.~Theodore Roosevelt
That we are to stand by the president, right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public. ~Theodore Roosevelt

 

[2020hindsight]

MEMORIALS
1. As for Brujos comment about theories that Americans "get over 9/11 ..." -
no way would I deny the Americans the right to erect a memorial to 9/11 (just as we have a few to Bali victims etc) - and the best way to "get over it" IMO is not to "deny it", but to let them live on in our memories and get on with a healthy life regardless (IMO - just my way of tackling grief I guess).

2. I really like that memorial in Kings Park Perth, where on the anniversay of Bali (12 October) the suns rays at sunrise strike a memorial stone with all the 16 (?) names of Wassies killed - very very well done Perth

3. getting back on thread by a long circuitous route lol - I'm sure that Virginia will end up with a memorial -

4. just as Port Arthur (I'm fairly sure (?) ) has one -
though as for that I may stand to be corrected . I think that the cafe for instance has been demolished yes ? Nobody wanted to have that vivid a reminder, and a simple memorial with a clean start was considered a "better" option. (as I recall). Pls correct me if I'm wrong tassies.

 

[2020hindsight]

Bali 2002 Memorial , Kings Park , Perth
http://www.donaldsonandwarn.com.au/Architecture/Bali/bali.html

 

[Rafa]

b. such an outdated attitude bel, sheesh,- but supposing you are right (and ignoring the millions of other aids victims) - are you prepared to acknowledge the contribution of the Vatican and GW Bush ? (all as per recent news article on ABC)

I know this is way off topic.... but i have heard this many times and i must admit i am confused...

if you are NOT going to follow the teaching on sex with multiple partners, why DO you follow the teachings re use of condoms.

seems rather strange to me...
you can't have it both ways... if your gonna be flouting the teaching on pre marital sex, you might as well flout the teaching on wearing condoms!

blaming the vatican, etc seems like a easy 'out' IMHO.

 

[2020hindsight]

Rafa, How would I act if I was in charge of preventing AIDS in Africa?
I would be treating them like red blooded humans for a start.

I would tell MBeke that he's an idiot and to put Nelson Mandela back in charge ( the fool seems to be in denial about a link between hetrosexual sex and AIDS - I just wish that was a joke , like the Egyptian in de-NILE about it as well)

I would acknowledge that Africans were entitled to some sex before they die at some ungodly early age due to horrificly low life expectancies,

I would show them the Grim Reaper ads we used to have in Aus rather than invent some story that God only intended sex with a view to procreation / reproduction whatever. (I note they are thinking about bringing those ads or something like them back - as reference I quote Chaser lol)

THings I would NOT do include

Sitting back with the likes of Fred Nile - or people who smugly say or imply "ahhh, see I told you not to sin, and now you have AIDS!"

And I would not be so , mmm, lets call it blinkered, or "unpragmatic" as the Vatican, where the Pope conveniently ignores the fact that in effect we withheld the supply of morally-available-condoms to them, and hence they could only have sex playing some horrible game of Russian Roulette . Couldn't do what young unmarried adults are doing in almost every other country around the world (possible exception of Vatican itself, but then again ... they seem to find ways around it as well )

PS Maybe you didn't see a recent post on the "Anyone Watch Aunty" thread . Here it is again - yet another of GW Bush's theories down the gurgler
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2007/s1899734.htm Abstinence-only programs don't work: report

PS I would not make jokes about it either - AIDS might once have been a problem for the 3 H's
Homosexuals, Hyperdermic uses, Haitians. It is now across all walks of life - including innocent little kids born to innocent mothers (how dare we judge them as sinners sheesh)
and NEVER was just a gay problem despite the countless "jokes" over the years - Anally Inserted Death Sentence: etc sheesh.

Hell if we are going to start judging gays, apart from the fact that only a moron would misquote the Bible that way,
the "Church" has its fair share of gays as well - and probably the highest percentage per capita in the world.
(I add the word "probably" in case any particular "Church" is brave enough to sue me on the matter .)

Proceeds from this song donated by Elton John to Aids victims. About the only song of his I like .
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQn4CT6xTx0

 

[Rafa]

thanks for your comments 2020...
it certainly is a complicated matter, and a very tragic story all up. I certainly agree with most of your sentiments.

I notice you have writting something about population control in the drought thread...

pandemics and diseases are, as i am sure you are aware, is natures way of population control...

to bring it back to the topic... incidentally, so is giving guns to everyone... i.e. law of the jungle.

 

[2020hindsight]

I'm sure we agree on some other topics Rafa , lol. - maybe not that one, (and it happens to be one I feel strongly about - that and my right to a beer fridge downstairs) but it has nothing to do with this thread I concede. I might post a poem on the subject - at least there I can claim poetic licence, and no one is entitled to criticize there. - unless it's done in a poem

http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-conflicts-periods/other/eureka.htm
Here's an incidental comment more out of interest. Eureka Stockade - note the comment :-

A member of the Independent Californian Rangers Revolver Brigade can be seen at right, firing his revolver at the troops swarming over the breastwork.

Californian pistols at Eureka? slightly topical?
Another minor point - the Eureka flag was designed by one of the Canadians there.
Eureka was 1854 - American Civil War was 1861 - 65 .
Somewhere from similar "rough hewn granite" we have managed to carve two democracies, one that believes in guns by the million, ...
and one (the saner one) that doesn't

 

[bel532]

a. agreed
b. such an outdated attitude bel, sheesh,- but supposing you are right (and ignoring the millions of other aids victims) - are you prepared to acknowledge the contribution of the Vatican and GW Bush ? (all as per recent news article on ABC)
c. ( Y/N answer?) - I'd agree.

As for being anti-American, here's a quote from a website posted elsewhere.

Now there is a American who calls it like it is (IMO), yet a self-styled "pro-USA" American, who maintains his right to free speech and all those things that America should stand for, used to stand for, - and can think beyond the spin doctored rhetoric that comes out of Washington.
Note Theodore Roosevelt's take on what qualifies as "treasonable to the American public..."

I stand by my statement that AIDS, in the main, is a self inflicted disease, but, with the rider, that this applies to the Western World. In Sub Saharan Africa it is somewhat different in that the males, because (a) their macho attitude to sex and (b) the poverty of the region, the AID virus is transmitted through anal intercourse, which, in that region of world is practised as a form of contraception.

It is evident that the GAY community is losing and/or ignoring the 'safe sex' message, at least in Vic, where there has been a rise in AIDS related infections due to their increased proclivity to engage in unprotected sex. The advent of powerful drugs has possibly given them a feeling of invincibilty.

You may call my opinion as 'outdated', but I prefer to call it 'realistic'. You are probably just being 'politically correct', well that's your choice.

I can't dispute your argument re the Vatican's attitutude towards sex. Its attitiude to sex is the prime reason it has lost so many of its priests and nuns and is failing to attract them in sufficient numbers, although, I suppose, this maybe comensurate with falling church attendances. I have known a number of ex priests and nuns who have suffered mental agony in attempting to reconcile their beliefs with their innermost feelings and subsequently left the Catholic Church.

 

[2020hindsight]

I can't dispute your argument re the Vatican's attitutude towards sex. Its attitiude to sex is the prime reason it has lost so many of its priests and nuns and is failing to attract them in sufficient numbers, although, I suppose, this maybe comensurate with falling church attendances. I have known a number of ex priests and nuns who have suffered mental agony in attempting to reconcile their beliefs with their innermost feelings and subsequently left the Catholic Church.

bel, Are you saying that you think that (at least some) potential nuns and priests don't go there because they want a normal sexual life themselves , maybe marriage etc? If they left to pursue a normal life good on em. In being honest and avoiding suspected lulus in the church's teachings, they are well on the way to an honest life. And still leaves plenty of opportunities in World Vision etc where the aid is delivered without religious strings attached.

My comments were more about what they tell others to do, not themsleves - I mean , sex is not a "sin", although unprotected sex is getting pretty close to "about as bludy stupid as you can possibly be") ( and of course knowingly risking passing on AIDS is attempted murder)

But for those things that DO qualify as sins (non sex matters) - I wish they spent as much time talking about "lead us not into temptation" and less about "forgive us our trespasses".

And obviously I disgree with you 300% on your attitude to AIDS being self inflicted. Even if it is the result of said stupidity, (actual percentage I'm guessing is about 66% compared to innocents about 33% - pure guess), ....I would say "forgive them father because they know not what they do, and we the church refuse to adjust our blinkers to help them, and prefer them to gamble with death about our arguably ludicrous edicts!".

Sometimes I wonder if the first world is happy to let the AIDS epidemic run wild - all the more oxygen and resources for them in the future (and btw, that's what I would call a "sin")

PS your comment about gays in Vic - I guess I would have to agree that the sympathy they deserve if they gamble is about the same as any other stupid gambler who lost. I'd still feel sorry for em - but I concede, they were given every chance to avoid it. (not like the third world)

 

[2020hindsight]

Would you sell a weapon to this man?
The Yanks seem to be determined to maintain his rights to such access - it's his right!
And I suspect NEWT GINGRICH should be taken to task for telling untruths. - or if true, then at least not publuic massacres (weapons amongst gangs I concede are harder to collect / rein in )

http://abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200704/s1904169.htm

More guns could have prevented US uni massacre: advocates
Gun advocates in the United States say last week's massacre at Virginia Tech university may not have happened if students were allowed to carry concealed guns on campus.

"This is a huge nail in the coffin of gun control," said Philip Van Cleave, president of the gun rights group Virginia Citizens Defence League.

"They had gun control on campus and it got all those people killed, because nobody could defend themselves," he told AFP.

http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2007/s1903906.htm University massacre may lead to minor changes of US gun laws

TONY EASTLEY: Even with all the national soul searching over the Virginia Tech shootings, there seems little energy for a national gun debate, let alone a revision of America's gun laws.

There seems to be little moment for a blanket crackdown on any weapons, with one former high-profile politician claiming that Australian-style laws certainly didn't work.

However, some US politicians are considering some minor adjustments to the laws, which will prevent the mentally ill from obtaining weapons.
...As funerals for the massacre victims continue, debate is slowly turning to US gun laws.

Former House Speaker and possible Republican presidential candidate, Newt Gingrich, doesn't favour a widespread crackdown on weapons.

NEWT GINGRICH: In countries that have had absolute bans, Great Britain, Australia, gun violence has actually gone up because the criminals end up buying illegal guns, but the law-abiding honest citizen is in effect disarmed.

KIM LANDERS: And he maintains if any of gunman Cho Seung-Hui's victims had been armed, his killing spree may have been halted sooner. etc etc

 

[2020hindsight]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIY_q-rbND8&NR=1
Virginia Tech - The Gunsman's Story - Newscast (Sick)
heaps of posts there of course.

 

[Brujo]

I never said that I believe Americans need to get over 9/11, merely was referring to an article or quote that I saw. I personally still get a bit emotional when I see the footage from that shocking day.

And agree, 9/11 was a deliberate effort directed at destroying lives, compared to AIDS which is more preventable.

But I can't subscribe to the view that AIDS is self-inflicted. Maybe yes in developed nations, but the real death toll is ocurring in the third world, where it is nearly impossible to educate about AIDS and to give people access to prevention methods.

The comparison to the daily AIDS toll still, to me, is a real eye-opener and reality check. Similar to me whinging about not getting motivated to exercise to get rid of my spare tyre and then seeing a 30-year-old stroke victim getting spoon-fed in my mother-in-law's nursing home!

It's all relative!!!