Ukraine War

[sptrawler]

WTF? Right wing?

Yes it has to be the 'right loonies', because the 'left loonies' can never admit they have stuffed up. ?

Castrate the West, then run around pointing fingers as the bad people walk all over them, jeez talk about stupidity.
The media has got what it wanted, a completely cynical society of self indulgent, entitled people, who give authority the bird.
Well we are going to find out how that works for them IMO.
The only thing that prevails in a major conflict is discipline, pride and loyalty, something the West has sent round the S bend, over recent years
This could end very badly.
ASF members keep mentioning Taiwan, I hope they are right.
There are plenty of other potential targets that have better intellectual property and or resources.
if your going to stir $hit, you might as well play for high stakes.

 

[IFocus]

How was the attack on the capital remotely related? There is no connecting those dots.

Putin knew he was good to go once Obama, Nato, and everyone else let him take crimea without consequence a few years ago.

Realistically the US was the only obstacle to Putin, resources / military and will.

The EU was never going to defend Ukraine.

A destabilised divided US removes the will part, the attack on the capital caused and backed by Trump also seen by most Republicans as legitimate is key to destabilising Biden and any decisions he takes which takes away resources.

Still China is now the big concern and the reactions to its moves IMHO.

 

[sptrawler]

Realistically the US was the only obstacle to Putin, resources / military and will.

The EU was never going to defend Ukraine.

A destabilised divided US removes the will part, the attack on the capital caused and backed by Trump also seen by most Republicans as legitimate is key to destabilising Biden and any decisions he takes which takes away resources.

Still China is now the big concern and the reactions to its moves IMHO.

Are you serious, the EU hasn't changed since WW2, they will have to raid the museums to get arms, they have given over their energy security to Russia, while shutting down their nuclear power stations ASAP.

The only reason the U.S is destabilised, is because Trump was making the multinationals relocate their manufacturing back to the U.S and charging the multinationals tariffs on the $hit they made in China.

So Trump had to go and now you have the result, you still blame Trump, just complete denial IMO.

This is going to end very, very badly unless people wake up.

There are only two camps that want the U.S destroyed, the multinationals and those that get paid to make the multi nationals junk. Helped along by those that rely on the multinationals advertising dollars.
Trumps problem was, he obviously couldn't be bought, so next option use your employees to discredit, even blind Freddy could see that.
Just feed the chooks what you want them to believe.
All a moot point now, things have moved on, well past Trump.

 

[IFocus]

Are you serious, the EU hasn't changed since WW2, they will have to raid the museums to get arms, they have given over their energy security to Russia, while shutting down their nuclear power stations ASAP.

The only reason the U.S is destabilised, is because Trump was making the multinationals relocate their manufacturing back to the U.S and charging the multinationals tariffs on the $hit they made in China.

So Trump had to go and now you have the result, you still blame Trump, just complete denial IMO.

This is going to end very, very badly unless people wake up.

There are only two camps that want the U.S destroyed, the multinationals and those that get paid to make the multi nationals junk. Helped along by those that rely on the multinationals advertising dollars.
Trumps problem was, he obviously couldn't be bought, so next option use your employees to discredit, even blind Freddy could see that.
Just feed the chooks what you want them to believe.
All a moot point now, things have moved on, well past Trump.

So you didn't read my post then? eh.

 

[Smurf1976]

We've been outplayed, and this is just the beginning.

The sad thing is it wasn't just foreseeable but actually foreseen.

There's been people on about this scenario since literally last century. We've had decades to heed the warnings.

 

[sptrawler]

So you didn't read my post then? eh.

Yes I did, I am still trying to work out why you are blaming Trump and for what exactly, the wall, the tariffs, the calling out of the E.U for dragging the chain with regard defence?
The only reason Putin didn't do this earlier was because of Trump, exactly the reason why China and North Korea held back, now Biden is in what retaliation is going to happen?

Yeh just wondering in hindsight, what Trump did that hasn't proven to be actually forward thinking apart from upsetting the multinationals. WOW he upset Europe, well now Europe is wad punching its underpants, so Trump was right. He was demanding U.S manufacturers return to the U.S, well guess what China ain't going to send it now. lol

Most of what he predicted is actually looking likely, China and Russia appear to ratcheting up the aggression since he has been removed and when you are watching the U.S it isn't too dissimilar here and in the U.K.
Why we are all becoming destabilised is because a lot of people don't believe the mantra, if you are nice, everyone will treat you nice. History has shown, that is never the case and it is being shown right now in the Ukraine.

The systematic tearing down of our systems, politics and respect, by the media will end badly.
Chaos will take over and a disciplined group will move in to fill the vacuum left.
Watch for North Korea soon IMO.
Just my thoughts and time will tell, but it certainly isn't looking good IMO, with Russia's nuclear arsenal and China's manufacturing base that is some serious $hit.
At least the left wing loonies and media, have shut up about the nuclear subs. ?

 

[moXJO]

A lot of propaganda from both sides.
Hard to verify anything happening on the ground. Seen incidents of pro Ukraine accounts saying destroyed Ukraine tanks were Russian.

Not even sure of the above story I posted on snake Island. Propaganda is super thick.

 

[sptrawler]

A lot of propaganda from both sides.
Hard to verify anything happening on the ground. Seen incidents of pro Ukraine accounts saying destroyed Ukraine tanks were Russian.

Not even sure of the above story I posted on snake Island. Propaganda is super thick.

Very possible, but it still highlights how exposed the West really is, if a super power doesn't play nice.
It has been a bloody big wake up call IMO, as to just how complacent the West has become, there is one thing not expecting $hit to happen, but there is no excuse for not being prepared if it does.
Let's be honest if Australia was attacked, what could we do? Nothing, I doubt we could actually produce a rifle let alone heavy artillery, 90% of our heavy engineering is outsourced to China.

 

[StockyGuy]

A "proxy war" from the last Cold War - gotta love the classics:

 

[PZ99]

Ruddy on the money...

"Now, in near-complete strategic condominium, China and Russia are willing to move boldly in directly challenging the US for global leadership, seeking to fundamentally reshape the world order to suit their interests and values. Meeting this challenge will take a degree of unity and statecraft that the liberal-democratic world has, in recent decades, struggled to marshal."

More diatribe here > https://www.afr.com/policy/foreign-affairs/how-ukraine-fits-into-china-s-long-game-20220225-p59zq8

 

[mullokintyre]

Why are people still talking about Trump?
The bloke only had four years in the White house.
Putin and Xi have been in for much longer.
What about the eight years of Obama?
Or Angela Merkel or Boris Johnstone, or Tony Blair or David Cameron or Hollannde Sarkozy or Macron?
All of them in Europe were in power longer than Trump.
Why is none of this their fault?
But still , everyone blames Trump.
Hillary Clinton, once the secretary state oof the USA, tops them all.
Still pushing the line that the Republicans are soft on Russia, despite it being shown that the whole thing was a Democratic con job.
And so despite the fact that Biden was weak on Afghanistan, weak on China, France, and now Russia, its still all Trumps fault.
USA is F$%#ed

Mick

 

[IFocus]

Yes I did, I am still trying to work out why you are blaming Trump and for what exactly, the wall, the tariffs, the calling out of the E.U for dragging the chain with regard defence?
The only reason Putin didn't do this earlier was because of Trump, exactly the reason why China and North Korea held back, now Biden is in what retaliation is going to happen?

Yeh just wondering in hindsight, what Trump did that hasn't proven to be actually forward thinking apart from upsetting the multinationals. WOW he upset Europe, well now Europe is wad punching its underpants, so Trump was right. He was demanding U.S manufacturers return to the U.S, well guess what China ain't going to send it now. lol

Most of what he predicted is actually looking likely, China and Russia appear to ratcheting up the aggression since he has been removed and when you are watching the U.S it isn't too dissimilar here and in the U.K.
Why we are all becoming destabilised is because a lot of people don't believe the mantra, if you are nice, everyone will treat you nice. History has shown, that is never the case and it is being shown right now in the Ukraine.

The systematic tearing down of our systems, politics and respect, by the media will end badly.
Chaos will take over and a disciplined group will move in to fill the vacuum left.
Watch for North Korea soon IMO.
Just my thoughts and time will tell, but it certainly isn't looking good IMO, with Russia's nuclear arsenal and China's manufacturing base that is some serious $hit.
At least the left wing loonies and media, have shut up about the nuclear subs. ?

You still haven't read my post, your rants are bizarre suggest you check your meds.

My points were the EU would not shed blood for Ukraine and now you can throw in the US as well for that matter.

Neither have bolstered Ukraine defence armament's in any meaning full way what does that tell you?

The US is divided on just about anything now, divided nations don't get anything done never mind war or suppling resources, you say the divisions are nothing to do with Trump its all the medias fault or the left wing loonies.

Trump is the hero that would have stopped all this happening... some how.

Yeah right, carry on.

 

[mullokintyre]

You still haven't read my post, your rants are bizarre suggest you check your meds.

My points were the EU would not shed blood for Ukraine and now you can throw in the US as well for that matter.

Neither have bolstered Ukraine defence armament's in any meaning full way what does that tell you?

The US is divided on just about anything now, divided nations don't get anything done never mind war or suppling resources, you say the divisions are nothing to do with Trump its all the medias fault or the left wing loonies.

Trump is the hero that would have stopped all this happening... some how.

Yeah right, carry on.

Trump is the result of divisions, not the cause.
Why do you think so many Americans voted for him?
Their way of life (without making any judgments on whether it was decadent or otherwise) was constantly being undermined by the media, by Hollywood, and the educational and political elite.
They were told they were racist, homophobic, xenophobic, deplorable (theres Hillary again), their christian beliefs were not only wrong, but dangerous and they were the only reason that the climate was screwed up.
Anyone who spoke against them was cancelled, they had no way of being heard.
In trump , they saw someone who would speak for them.
If it was not Trump it would have been someone else acting as the lightning rod for their grievances.
And those grievances still exist.
Trump may or may not run in the next presidential race, but whoever runs as the GOP representative, they will carry the aspirations and hopes of a lot of still aggrieved people.
Mick

 

[Knobby22]

Trump is the result of divisions, not the cause.
Why do you think so many Americans voted for him?
Their way of life (without making any judgments on whether it was decadent or otherwise) was constantly being undermined by the media, by Hollywood, and the educational and political elite.
They were told they were racist, homophobic, xenophobic, deplorable (theres Hillary again), their christian beliefs were not only wrong, but dangerous and they were the only reason that the climate was screwed up.
Anyone who spoke against them was cancelled, they had no way of being heard.
In trump , they saw someone who would speak for them.
If it was not Trump it would have been someone else acting as the lightning rod for their grievances.
And those grievances still exist.
Trump may or may not run in the next presidential race, but whoever runs as the GOP representative, they will carry the aspirations and hopes of a lot of still aggrieved people.
Mick

But will the GOP offer someone who will help them?

 

[moXJO]

But will the GOP offer someone who will help them?

Is there any leaders in the western world who could help anyone?

Obama was billed as this great saviour and he ended up being one of the worst ever. A lot of the current woes can be attributed to his government actions.

Looking around at western government's political leaders, I'm reminded of the end of empires from history.

 

[rederob]

Trump is the result of divisions, not the cause.

Really?
An inveterate liar and cheat who appointed more people to high office who were subsequently charged for various offences than any other President. Not to mention being impeached and later trying to overturn an election result via America's worst riot in a public building, which happened to be the nation's seat parliament.

Why do you think so many Americans voted for him?

Partisan politics and sheer stupidity. But he lost the popular vote by 3 million to Clinton and 7 million to Biden, yet was elected through America's gerrymander.

Their way of life (without making any judgments on whether it was decadent or otherwise) was constantly being undermined by the media, by Hollywood, and the educational and political elite.

Seriously?
Their way of life did not change.
However, Trump was a political freak show like no other and Murdoch's media pandered to his idiocy and was responsible for an incredible lift in fake news and falsehoods.

They were told they were racist, homophobic, xenophobic, deplorable (theres Hillary again), their christian beliefs were not only wrong, but dangerous and they were the only reason that the climate was screwed up.

I was only there for a month during Trump's term and never, ever got that impression from talking to people across the nation.

Anyone who spoke against them was cancelled, they had no way of being heard.

Bunkum. Some media platforms chose to censor lies and distortions, but Murdoch's media was to the fore in distorting reality at every opportunity.

In trump , they saw someone who would speak for them.
If it was not Trump it would have been someone else acting as the lightning rod for their grievances.

Trump appealed mostly to the rustbelt and very wealthy. He did zip for the former and a lot for the latter.

And those grievances still exist.

Because in 4 years Trump achieved almost nothing he of what he espoused.
On the other hand he managed to make a mockery of "democracy" an America a laughing stock in Europe.

On topic, Trump had a lot of intelligence about Russia's intent towards Ukraine but did very little to support it given its strategic position between NATO nations and Russia, and his withholding of $400m in military aid is evidence.

 

[mullokintyre]

But will the GOP offer someone who will help them?

They may offer someone who says they will help them, or the dissafected will think they will help them, but I think it is too late for America.
The establishment is just too big and too powerful.
The slow decline started years ago, and its bloated and corrupt bureacracy in political, educational, financial and information sectors will never let go of power.
They are doomed.
Mick

 

[mullokintyre]

Just to highlight the way the Elites in the USA have become so far removed from its citizens, in the middle of a major invasion by Russia into another of its neighbouring countries, John Kerry hopes that Putin will still commit to climate change.
From Daily Mail UK

Republicans have torn into 'despicable' former Secretary of State John Kerry for saying he hopes Vladimir Putin will still help fight climate change just before Russian fighter jets, troops and tanks rolled into Ukraine in an all-out invasion.

President Biden's climate envoy said frozen Russian land is 'thawing', Putin's 'infrastructure' is 'at risk' and urged the Russian tyrant to 'help us to stay on track with respect to what we need to do for the climate.

'I'm concerned about Ukraine because of the people of Ukraine and because of the principles that are at risk, in terms of international law and trying to change boundaries of international law by force,' Kerry, President Biden's special envoy for climate said in an interview with BBC Arabic.

I have no doubt that Putins reaction to climate change is the very last thing on the minds of the citizens of either Ukraine or Russia.
Mick

 

[sptrawler]

Their way of life (without making any judgments on whether it was decadent or otherwise) was constantly being undermined by the media, by Hollywood, and the educational and political elite.
They were told they were racist, homophobic, xenophobic, deplorable (theres Hillary again), their christian beliefs were not only wrong, but dangerous and they were the only reason that the climate was screwed up.
Anyone who spoke against them was cancelled, they had no way of being heard.

Mick

You could apply that to the U.K and Australia, it is just the same, the majority are becoming very disenfranchised and feel they are becoming invisible.

 

[moXJO]

Really?
An inveterate liar and cheat who appointed more people to high office who were subsequently charged for various offences than any other President. Not to mention being impeached and later trying to overturn an election result via America's worst riot in a public building, which happened to be the nation's seat parliament.

Partisan politics and sheer stupidity. But he lost the popular vote by 3 million to Clinton and 7 million to Biden, yet was elected through America's gerrymander.

Seriously?
Their way of life did not change.
However, Trump was a political freak show like no other and Murdoch's media pandered to his idiocy and was responsible for an incredible lift in fake news and falsehoods.

I was only there for a month during Trump's term and never, ever got that impression from talking to people across the nation.

Bunkum. Some media platforms chose to censor lies and distortions, but Murdoch's media was to the fore in distorting reality at every opportunity.

Trump appealed mostly to the rustbelt and very wealthy. He did zip for the former and a lot for the latter.

Because in 4 years Trump achieved almost nothing he of what he espoused.
On the other hand he managed to make a mockery of "democracy" an America a laughing stock in Europe.

On topic, Trump had a lot of intelligence about Russia's intent towards Ukraine but did very little to support it given its strategic position between NATO nations and Russia, and his withholding of $400m in military aid is evidence.

He called out multiple issues that were on point. And they are now all coming home to roost.
Trump torched NATO countries to spend at least 2% gdp on defence. And gave Germany an earful about using Russian gas.

So apparently idiots know more then entrenched politicians.