Ukraine War

qldfrog · 6 March 2022

Not to target anyone, but i was always wondering: what the heck looking at US foreign policies and how dumb they were ,with no knowledge of actual history or people feelings, Kosovo, Iran, Irak, Afghanistan, Syria..and then the Russian border states..
How could they do so ...
But looking at reactions here among people who are clearly in the top education/thinking/IQ levels, i understand.
I believe every country has roughly the same % of bright and dumb people..obviously education and natural selection reversal can tweak that..but overall same same.
If decision makers then miss education aka geography/history and know more about NBA or AFL than Prague Spring or USSR , that can explain a lot.. even if they were well intended..which they are obviously not. .

Sir Burr · 6 March 2022

How about the Crimean oil reserves and their water supply that Ukraine cut.
Russians have already taken control of the canal.

qldfrog · 7 March 2022

Sir Burr said:
How about the Crimean oil reserves and their water supply that Ukraine cut.
Russians have already taken control of the canal.

Yes funny how the corrupt current Ukrainian government are turned angels?
Have been shelling the. Russian part for ages tried to starve gem, are the major resale area for stolen cars in europe under own mafia influenced,human traffic, drugs...all angels and sacking the prosecutor who was going to indict POTUS son for corruption during Obama's time..all fake news obviously, bad mouthing the freedom fighters ?
But the shells and bullets are real.have pity for the population but not the so called leader who put them there .
And Australia sending weapon to Ukraine from what i read on reuters.. that's a good dog Morrison,
take care of your country first, the police and military enforcing state borders control a few months agowould be more welcome to clean the floods instead.
My rant of the day over.let's enjoy life now while i can

Smurf1976 · 7 March 2022

qldfrog said:
Not to target anyone, but i was always wondering: what the heck looking at US foreign policies and how dumb they were ,with no knowledge of actual history or people feelings, Kosovo, Iran, Irak, Afghanistan, Syria..and then the Russian border states..
How could they do so ...

I'm no war expert, I'd have to Google it if someone asked me the exact details of any conflict really, but I've long thought the same about natural resources.

I mean I do "get it" that there are legitimate concerns about the natural environment and so on and for the record I do agree with a lot of that in principle, I can see the point people who oppose mines or dams or whatever are making and it's not without basis. But how on earth does anyone not see Western reliance on oil and gas as the single greatest problem far above and beyond all the others about which so much fuss is made?

Sending literally $ billions every single day, 365 days a year, to obtain a fairly limited resource from countries that are unstable, run by dictators or otherwise unfriendly to the West is just asking for trouble. Surely anyone can see that as being a massive problem which goes far beyond any problems caused by someone drilling a well in Australia?

One's something that we can regulate, that employs locals and which has a not zero but unlikely chance of going badly wrong and making a mess that's difficult to clean up. The other option funds war and destruction, potentially our own. Neither is good but the latter's far worse surely.

It used to bother me but these days I just see it as one of those things. Humans are highly intelligent individually but as a species we have some very major blind spots and do some really silly things.

I see that in the nearest supermarket I can buy chocolate made in Victoria, Tasmania or an unspecified somewhere in Australia. Or I could instead buy a well known product made in Russia. Why the hell is the latter for sale in the first place with or without a war? What happened to helping ourselves first? Better to keep someone employed in Melbourne or Hobart surely than to send money to the other side of the world to a country that we've never had great relations with.

Plenty more like that where the West seems to be doing really silly things that end up facilitating trouble.

StockyGuy · 7 March 2022

Just a random observation. It might seem off that the world's largest nation by landmass, almost double that of the second, needs more land. There's likely an implicit understanding that without ongoing expansion Russia will always be under pressure to contract due to the myriad separatist movements.

Putin thought the West perceives Ukraine as acceptably part of his Frankenstein mess of states that don't really fit together. (He also thought the Ukrainians would be more accepting of that.) But the West's consensus seems to be that it's peripheral Europe. But periphery is NOT core, hence the headaches. Their steadfast resistance certainly makes the West want to help them. It was good to see the usually neutral Switzerland join in the sanctions against the dictator's regime.

divs4ever · 7 March 2022

Smurf1976 said:
I'm no war expert, I'd have to Google it if someone asked me the exact details of any conflict really, but I've long thought the same about natural resources.

I mean I do "get it" that there are legitimate concerns about the natural environment and so on and for the record I do agree with a lot of that in principle, I can see the point people who oppose mines or dams or whatever are making and it's not without basis. But how on earth does anyone not see Western reliance on oil and gas as the single greatest problem far above and beyond all the others about which so much fuss is made?

Sending literally $ billions every single day, 365 days a year, to obtain a fairly limited resource from countries that are unstable, run by dictators or otherwise unfriendly to the West is just asking for trouble. Surely anyone can see that as being a massive problem which goes far beyond any problems caused by someone drilling a well in Australia?

One's something that we can regulate, that employs locals and which has a not zero but unlikely chance of going badly wrong and making a mess that's difficult to clean up. The other option funds war and destruction, potentially our own. Neither is good but the latter's far worse surely.

It used to bother me but these days I just see it as one of those things. Humans are highly intelligent individually but as a species we have some very major blind spots and do some really silly things.

I see that in the nearest supermarket I can buy chocolate made in Victoria, Tasmania or an unspecified somewhere in Australia. Or I could instead buy a well known product made in Russia. Why the hell is the latter for sale in the first place with or without a war? What happened to helping ourselves first? Better to keep someone employed in Melbourne or Hobart surely than to send money to the other side of the world to a country that we've never had great relations with.

Plenty more like that where the West seems to be doing really silly things that end up facilitating trouble.

no . no that changed a while back to politicians helping themselves first ,highlighted by that little adventure where super-fund managers ( including 'industry super-funds ' ) went overseas to find all the good places to invest Australian workers many

unfortunately i had absolutely lost faith in our unions , so all i did was shrugged and sighed ( and remembered that for the future )

and in my opinion we have this addiction to do even more sillier things ( like all those war machine purchases , for the military we don't have )

SirRumpole · 7 March 2022

StockyGuy said:
Just a random observation. It might seem off that the world's largest nation by landmass, almost double that of the second, needs more land. There's likely an implicit understanding that without ongoing expansion Russia will always be under pressure to contract due to the myriad separatist movements.

Putin thought the West perceives Ukraine as acceptably part of his Frankenstein mess of states that don't really fit together. (He also thought the Ukrainians would be more accepting of that.) But the West's consensus seems to be that it's peripheral Europe. But periphery is NOT core, hence the headaches. Their steadfast resistance certainly makes the West want to help them. It was good to see the usually neutral Switzerland join in the sanctions against the dictator's regime.

Russia's invasion was brutal an unprovoked and they deserve all the sanctions against them.

I wonder though if a settlement could be reached by declaring Ukraine a neutral zone, no weapons there either Russian or the West , Ukraine becomes another Switzerland.

Everyone just gets out and lets the Ukrainians get on with their lives.

Probably too late for that, I think Putin is motivated by an emperor delusion, but if he suddenly goes it might be a solution.

IFocus · 7 March 2022

The Ukraine threat to Putin is that its a liberal democracy a right wing dictator cannot have that on his door step.

Sean K · 7 March 2022

Interesting stats on how much damage has been done to Russian forces, if you believe them. It looks like they might be in trouble. I initially thought their numbers for the invasion force were a bit light on. In general Army defence theory, you need 3:1 to mount an effective attack against a defending force, so the 120K or so Russians sounded a little light on.

I still don't understand why that huge column of Russian vehicles (assume it's the logistic tail) backed up NW of Kiev hasn't been taken out by Ukraine missiles or their airforce. A single run of a few jets could have decimated them. Three attack helicopters could have done it. Perhaps air defences around those trucks is pretty solid.

Article in the Oz:

Russia's forces decimated, defence chief says

Russia’s lead forces have been “decimated” and it is not inevitable that it will succeed in taking over Ukraine, The Times reports the head of Britain’s armed forces saying.

Admiral Sir Tony Radakin, the chief of the defence staff, said Moscow had “got itself into a mess” and that its invasion was “not going well”.

He also warned that Russia might “turn up the violence” with “more indiscriminate killing” in response to the highly effective Ukrainian resistance.

As many as 11,000 Russian soldiers have been killed in the fierce fighting, according to the latest approximate figures published by the Ukrainian armed forces on Sunday.

An estimated 44 aircraft, 285 tanks, 985 armoured vehicles, 109 artillery systems and 60 fuel tanks have also been destroyed. Admiral Radakin said the Kremlin had lost more troops in a week than the UK did in 20 years in Afghanistan.

He also said that the morale of the invading soldiers had been knocked so badly that some had abandoned the convoy destined for Kyiv to camp in the forest.

– The Times

againsthegrain · 7 March 2022

With the long convoys it is more economical to pick off a few vehicles at the start middle and end. That way the convoy is stuck, soldiers are panicked and you don't waste big bombs. Once the convoy is stuck snipers and land forces can pick it off from either side then recover undamaged equipment

JohnDe · 7 March 2022

Sean K said:
Interesting stats on how much damage has been done to Russian forces, if you believe them. It looks like they might be in trouble. I initially thought their numbers for the invasion force were a bit light on. In general Army defence theory, you need 3:1 to mount an effective attack against a defending force, so the 120K or so Russians sounded a little light on.

I still don't understand why that huge column of Russian vehicles (assume it's the logistic tail) backed up NW of Kiev hasn't been taken out by Ukraine missiles or their airforce. A single run of a few jets could have decimated them. Three attack helicopters could have done it. Perhaps air defences around those trucks is pretty solid.

Article in the Oz:

Russia's forces decimated, defence chief says
Russia’s lead forces have been “decimated” and it is not inevitable that it will succeed in taking over Ukraine, The Times reports the head of Britain’s armed forces saying.

Admiral Sir Tony Radakin, the chief of the defence staff, said Moscow had “got itself into a mess” and that its invasion was “not going well”.

He also warned that Russia might “turn up the violence” with “more indiscriminate killing” in response to the highly effective Ukrainian resistance.

As many as 11,000 Russian soldiers have been killed in the fierce fighting, according to the latest approximate figures published by the Ukrainian armed forces on Sunday.

An estimated 44 aircraft, 285 tanks, 985 armoured vehicles, 109 artillery systems and 60 fuel tanks have also been destroyed. Admiral Radakin said the Kremlin had lost more troops in a week than the UK did in 20 years in Afghanistan.

He also said that the morale of the invading soldiers had been knocked so badly that some had abandoned the convoy destined for Kyiv to camp in the forest.

– The Times

Russia rely heavily on rail transport, it pretty much stops at the border. The road convoy that long was stupid but they are relying on heavy air defences. Though it didn’t take long for the Ukraine resistance to knock a few front line equipment out and slow the Russian advance. That’s not going to last long, and is why the Ukraine president is asking for NATO to enforce a no fly zone, which won’t happen.

In WWII the German’s went into Poland with about the same number of troops as the Polish defence force, except that the German’s had vastly more mechanised infantry, higher numbers of aircraft and more modern, strong supply lines and speed.

Check out this explanation -

qldfrog · 7 March 2022

Sean K said:
Interesting stats on how much damage has been done to Russian forces, if you believe them. It looks like they might be in trouble. I initially thought their numbers for the invasion force were a bit light on. In general Army defence theory, you need 3:1 to mount an effective attack against a defending force, so the 120K or so Russians sounded a little light on.

I still don't understand why that huge column of Russian vehicles (assume it's the logistic tail) backed up NW of Kiev hasn't been taken out by Ukraine missiles or their airforce. A single run of a few jets could have decimated them. Three attack helicopters could have done it. Perhaps air defences around those trucks is pretty solid.

Article in the Oz:

Russia's forces decimated, defence chief says
Russia’s lead forces have been “decimated” and it is not inevitable that it will succeed in taking over Ukraine, The Times reports the head of Britain’s armed forces saying.

Admiral Sir Tony Radakin, the chief of the defence staff, said Moscow had “got itself into a mess” and that its invasion was “not going well”.

He also warned that Russia might “turn up the violence” with “more indiscriminate killing” in response to the highly effective Ukrainian resistance.

As many as 11,000 Russian soldiers have been killed in the fierce fighting, according to the latest approximate figures published by the Ukrainian armed forces on Sunday.

An estimated 44 aircraft, 285 tanks, 985 armoured vehicles, 109 artillery systems and 60 fuel tanks have also been destroyed. Admiral Radakin said the Kremlin had lost more troops in a week than the UK did in 20 years in Afghanistan.

He also said that the morale of the invading soldiers had been knocked so badly that some had abandoned the convoy destined for Kyiv to camp in the forest.

– The Times

To be honest, this is propaganda going on both way.you never know the truth until much later.
I just look at what towns are clearly..aka live report..under control by one or the other side.
And yes, Russians will probably flatten the entry points if west keep sending weapons there..to ensure no supply and we will then shout how criminal Putin is..
Obviously, doing the same in irak a few decades ago was welfare?
Sickening indeed
hopefully this will stop soon one way or the other but do not expect the us, NATO or EU to go for peace

frugal.rock · 8 March 2022

againsthegrain said:
With the long convoys

Had thought there were reports the convoy were partly out of fuel and rations.
Nothing like a mob of desperate hungry soldiers to start questioning the rationale of the "boss".
Other reports had ruski soldiers looting supermarkets and pharmacies. Don't sound well organised to me.
Reeks of desperation really.

Sidenote, those US dirtbags...(not the only ones doing it either)

U.S. bank JPMorgan suggests clients buy distressed Russian bonds

Russian distressed bonds could be scooped up, some touting deep discounts on loans

Beaten-down Russian assets are looking attractive to some, with JPMorgan strategists touting the bonds of Russian companies with significant international operations as the best way to profit from distressed pricing, while two banking sources said that loans of Russian corporates had been...

www.reuters.com

Oh, doesn't surprise me that JPMorgan has opened hitting a 52 week low this morning...
Bar Stewards

Dona Ferentes · 8 March 2022

frugal.rock said:
Had thought there were reports the convoy were partly out of fuel and rations.

Sidenote, those US dirtbags...(not the only ones doing it either)

and soon they won't even be able to use the local drive-through for provisions

Pressure is growing on Western food and drink giants to pull out of Russia due to the invasion of Ukraine.

McDonald's and Coca-Cola have been criticised on social media for failing to speak out about the attacks and continuing to operate in the country...

A US pension fund was urging them to review their businesses in Russia because they face "significant and growing legal, compliance, operational, human rights and personnel, and reputational risks".

McDonald's and Coca-Cola boycott calls grow over Russia

Food and drink giants have been criticised on social media for failing to speak out on Ukraine's invasion.

www.bbc.com

If this keeps up, we'll have a bifurcated world.

Liberal democracies on one side, desperately trying to reconfigure supply lines and adjust to the inflation/ stagflation (and not commit our young to senseless slaughter)
the neo-USSR and China on the other; one supplying raw materials and food , with the other providing manufactured goods
and then there'll be the teeming masses, food deficit and dollar a day places, that will hemorrhage their educated ones who will flee to somewhere that offers opportunity (chose from the above, 1 or 2, folks)

frugal.rock · 8 March 2022

Dona Ferentes said:
(chose from the above, 1 or 2, folks)

Not sure there will be a choice anymore...
I think your bang on with all 3, all together.
It was free "choice" that has lead the west to this point.

Shame about Maccas and Cola...
Maybe they need more Maccas, convoy decoys... knock em off with coronaries. ?
I don't feel humerous being humerous about this situation... Ow chihuahua.

Garpal Gumnut · 8 March 2022

Dona Ferentes said:
and soon they won't even be able to use the local drive-through for provisions

Pressure is growing on Western food and drink giants to pull out of Russia due to the invasion of Ukraine.

A US pension fund was urging them to review their businesses in Russia because they face "significant and growing legal, compliance, operational, human rights and personnel, and reputational risks".

McDonald's and Coca-Cola boycott calls grow over Russia

Food and drink giants have been criticised on social media for failing to speak out on Ukraine's invasion.

www.bbc.com

If this keeps up, we'll have a bifurcated world.

Liberal democracies on one side, desperately trying to reconfigure supply lines and adjust to the inflation/ stagflation (and not commit our young to senseless slaughter)

the neo-USSR and China on the other; one supplying raw materials and food , with the other providing manufactured goods

and then there'll be the teeming masses, food deficit and dollar a day places, that will hemorrhage their educated ones who will flee to somewhere that offers opportunity (chose from the above, 1 or 2, folks)

This particular part of the world, Ukraine, Russia with Istanbul has been in foment for 1500 years and it all goes back to the Fall of Rome and the movement East of the Christian Church.

I believe that all three entities will long outlast Coca Cola and McDonalds just as Turkish bread is not really Turkish bread.

Roger Crowley has a good book on it, 1453: The Holy War for Constantinople and the Clash of Islam and the West. which is pertinent to the present conflict but does not mention takeaways nor drive through eateries which flourished in Pompeii.

I will digress no further.

gg

basilio · 8 March 2022

A view of the war from a Russian novelist. He doesn't live in Russia and after reading the story one will appreciate he would not last long in the current regime.

Mikhail Shishkin

Mikhail Shishkin is a Russian novelist living in Switzerland. He is the only author to have won the Russian Booker Prize, the Russian National Bestseller, and Big Book Prize. His books have been translated into 30 languages

The real Russia is a country of literature and music, not the bombardment of children. Putin’s war brings disgrace on us all

Mikhail Shishkin is a Russian novelist

‘All critical statements regarding Russia and its war will be considered treason and punished according to martial law.’ Police in Moscow’s Manezhnaya Square. Photograph: Kirill Kudryavtsev/AFP/Getty Images
Mon 7 Mar 2022 06.57 EST
Last modified on Mon 7 Mar 2022 11.58 EST

668
I’m a Russian. Vladimir Putin is committing monstrous crimes in the name of my people, my country, and me. Putin is not Russia. Russia is hurt and ashamed. In the name of my Russia and my people I beg the Ukrainians’ forgiveness. Yet I realise that nothing being done there can be forgiven.

This war did not begin just now but in 2014, with Putin’s seizure of Crimea. The western world refused to understand the gravity of this and pretended nothing terrible was going on. All these years I’ve been trying in my statements and publications to explain to people just who Putin is. It hasn’t worked. And now Putin himself has explained it to everyone.

Whenever one of my articles is published in the press in Switzerland, where I live, the editors receive letters of outrage from people at the Russian embassy in Berne. They’re silent now. Maybe they’re packing their bags and applying for political asylum?

I want to return to Russia. But which Russia? In Putin’s Russia it’s impossible to breathe. The stench from the policeman’s boot is too strong. I will return to my country. As I wrote in an open letter when I refused to represent Putin’s Russia at an international event back in 2013, before Crimea was annexed: “I want to and will represent another Russia, my Russia, free of impostors, a country with a state structure that defends not the right to corruption but the rights of the individual, a country with free media, free elections, and free people.”

My dear Russians – the Ukrainians are fighting Putin’s army for their freedom, and ours | Mikhail Shishkin

The real Russia is a country of literature and music, not the bombardment of children, says Russian novelist Mikhail Shishkin

www.theguardian.com

SirRumpole · 8 March 2022

If you believe in the Biblical anit-Christ and the end of days, I reckon we are pretty close right now.

Sean K · 8 March 2022

qldfrog said:
To be honest, this is propaganda going on both way.you never know the truth until much later.

I agree, there’s mis and dis-information going on and always would be from all sides. But the article I pasted up was quoting the UK Chief of Defence Staff. I suppose Tony Blair said there were WMD in Iraq too…

SirRumpole · 8 March 2022

Former MI6 chief says Russian invasion of Ukraine is not sustainable

Russia cannot sustain its invasion of Ukraine, says former MI6 chief

A former head of British spy agency MI6 says Russia cannot maintain its war with Ukraine due to the size of the country and the will of the Ukrainian people.

www.abc.net.au

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